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The bigger question about Roblox is how and why they got their special treatment from Apple. The whole concept of Roblox is in blatant violation of Apple's App

The bigger question about Roblox is how and why they got their special treatment from Apple. The whole concept of Roblox is in blatant violation of Apple's App Store policies. I believe they are significantly shielded from competition because who else can get that kind of ongoing and reliable relief from Apple's famously picky and capricious App Store reviewers? Maybe Roblox is happy to pay Apple their 30% in exchange for that protection. And this is not a small matter: Roblox is a public company worth 25 billion dollars based in no small part on this special treatment. The SEC ought to be investigating this.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
eru 2y ago
Why the SEC specifically? Are you suggesting investors are hurt by this? If you want any part of any government to investigate, shouldn't you suggest some agency that's supposed to be working for consumer welfare or so?
- modeless 2y ago
  If there is any kind of undisclosed arrangement between Apple and Roblox then there's a clear case for securities fraud IMO. There's a huge risk to Roblox were any such deal to unravel, both from the threat of competition being allowed and from the possibility of Apple starting to enforce their published policies on Roblox. For public companies, risks like that must be disclosed.
  - chii 2y ago
    > undisclosed arrangement between Apple and Roblox then there's a clear case for securities fraud IMO not all undisclosed arrangements constitute securities fraud - only those whose intent is to defraud investors do. As for anti-competitive measures, the investigation ought to be from the consumer protection agencies, like the FCC, or from the justice department regarding anti-trust.
    - modeless 2y ago
      You are right that not all undisclosed arrangements are securities fraud. However, an undisclosed arrangement that represents an existential risk to the company were it to ever change would be securities fraud. You can't go public with huge undisclosed risks like that.
      - impulser_ 2y ago
        They disclose risks under Risk Factors in their quarterly filings.
        modeless 2y ago
        Obviously, like all public companies. But have they disclosed the specific risk that Apple might stop giving them special treatment and stop protecting them from competition or start enforcing the policies they violate? I believe I read their S-1 some time ago and didn't find any mention of special treatment from Apple. It's possible they started disclosing it later, but even that would still expose them to shareholder lawsuits from IPO investors. Edit: They are also vulnerable to insider whistleblowers. Any whistleblower would be eligible for rewards of 10-30% of any penalty ultimately assessed by the SEC. The SEC has paid tens of millions to single whistleblowers in the past.
        impulser_ 2y ago
        They don't have to disclose specific of a deal. "We depend on effectively operating with third-party mobile operating systems, hardware, and networks that may make changes affecting our operating costs, as well as our ability to maintain our Platform which would hurt our ability to operate our business. For the three months ended June 30, 2024, 30% of our revenue was attributable to Robux sales through the Apple App Store and 16% of our revenue was attributable to Robux sales through the Google Play Store. Because of the significant use of our Platform on mobile devices, our application must remain interoperable with these and other popular mobile app stores and platforms, and related hardware. We are subject to the standard policies and terms of service of these operating systems, as well as policies and terms of service of the various software application stores that make our application and experiences available to our developers, creators, and users. These policies and terms of service govern the availability, promotion, distribution, content, and operation of applications and experiences on such operating systems and stores. Each provider of these operating systems and stores has broad discretion to change and interpret its terms of service and policies with respect to our Platform and those changes may be unfavorable to us and our developers’, creators’, and users’ use of our Platform. If an operating system provider or application store limits or discontinues access to, or changes the terms governing, its operating system or store for any reason, it could adversely affect our business, financial condition, or results of operations."
  - jameshart 2y ago
    Apple can and does change even the written terms of AppStore service on a whim without warning. The risk that Apple suddenly changes its unwritten enforcement policy to your detriment is not that much different than the risk that they just change their Ts and Cs entirely. Apple’s walled garden, Apple’s rules. ANY publicly traded company that relies on the Apple AppStore for a significant portion of its revenue has an implied ‘so long as Apple continue to allow us to do this’ caveat hanging over their revenue forecasts.
    - eru 2y ago
      And when they are subject to US regulations, they typically make that implicit caveat into explicit disclosure. See eg https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41303671 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41303671
saint- 2y ago
Curious, why is Roblox in violation of Apple's App store policies?
- modeless 2y ago
  > Apps should be self-contained in their bundles, and may not read or write data outside the designated container area, nor may they download, install, or execute code which introduces or changes features or functionality of the app, including other apps. Roblox is in clear violation of this clause, downloading and executing entire games written in Lua. Apple does have an exception to this policy for HTML5 games and streaming games but Roblox does not qualify because it is not HTML5 and not streaming. Many people have had their businesses destroyed for far less serious violations of App Store policy. I believe there are also other rules against putting an app store inside your App Store app. Clearly Roblox is an app store for games, with its own currency. Apple has not been reasonable on this point with other companies: they originally didn't even want to allow cloud game streaming apps to play multiple games in a single app. Their ridiculous plan was to require a separate Apple App Store listing for each game that a streaming platform supported, and they only relented under pressure after Microsoft went public with their complaints: https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/11/21433071/microsoft-apple-app-store-rules-xcloud-game-streaming-xbox-game-pass https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/11/21433071/microsoft-apple-... And after that debacle they explicitly added exceptions to their policies for game streaming apps. They have never done so for Roblox-like apps, which are still plainly forbidden under their publicly posted policies.
  - chad1n 2y ago
    You can make the same argument about Minecraft since servers download you texture packs, data packs or skins. I don't think that Apple should stop these apps, that's their game model.
    - modeless 2y ago
      Roblox games are not comparable to texture packs or skins. They are complete games with assets and executable code, or at least the fancy ones are. Maybe data packs are more similar but it seems like Minecraft for iOS does not support them.
thomas34298 2y ago
I think the same argument could be made for Twitter/X. The app stores by Google and Apple specifically disallow pornographic material, yet the app is full of it. Once you're big and important enough, the rules mostly don't apply for you anymore. Of course, if they tried to circumvent the app store tax directly within the app, there would be consequences, but as long as Google/Apple can make a profit, it's okay it seems.
- drexlspivey 2y ago
  Can an aggregator/distributor be liable for user created content? You can find porn in Reddit or Google Search and these apps are still in the app store so I don’t think they are getting any special treatment.
  - BlueTemplar 2y ago
    There are some protections for hosting illegal data (real illegal, not EULA-disapproved), but they tend to go away if the host does any kind of editorializing (like showing the data through an algorithmic feed). Google Search is different yet, since they aren't the primary host.
  - theshrike79 2y ago
    Even Tapatalk had to filter out "adult" forums - and it's just a client to connect to 3rd party forums. On Twitter you can find actual porn straight up.
  - XlA5vEKsMISoIln 2y ago
    Didn't work out for Organic Maps. Merely allowing to access map data makes you un-family-friendly. Or at least that's what we can assume, since Google won't indulge in specifics. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41272925 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41272925
- hoseja 2y ago
  I don't think I've ever actually seen any porn on eXtwitter. (Well, on main.) Why was a perfectly fine Unicode Blackboard X filtered out of my post.
ec109685 2y ago
Roblox gets away with this due to the framing that it’s a single platform with many different experiences: “To start, Roblox is not a single game. It's a platform that hosts millions of user-generated experiences, such as historical roleplaying games or virtual labs to simulate physics experiments. Because of the diversity of content you'll find on Roblox, we use the term experience to refer to what you play on Roblox.” https://create.roblox.com/docs/education/resources/frequently-asked-questions-education https://create.roblox.com/docs/education/resources/frequentl... From the epic trial, Apple addressed why it allows them in a pretty tortured manner: https://www.polygon.com/22440737/roblox-metaverse-game-experiences-apple-epic-trial https://www.polygon.com/22440737/roblox-metaverse-game-exper... I think the best argument is that you’re a single player across games, kids speak of “playing Roblox”, there are portals between worlds, etc. This comment makes the point that all games feel the same: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41287780 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41287780 It’s pretty different from what Epic wanted to do by offering completely separate games in their App Store without paying apple commission.
- modeless 2y ago
  How were they getting away with it for the 10 years before that when they were still calling them games and were still clearly in violation? It's pretty clear that the name change is just a retconned excuse and has nothing at all to do with the real reason.
  - ProfessorLayton 2y ago
    Well, they actually did get banned from the App Store at one point, but successfully appealed. Here's a key part of this: Executives also have kids and they want to play Roblox on the go!
    - modeless 2y ago
      Yes, favoritism by Apple execs is the most plausible explanation to me. I wonder if Phil Schiller owns any RBLX shares...
2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
> I believe they are significantly shielded from competition I think you're onto something. All of the nieces and nephews of mine that play Roblox do it on an iPad.
samatman 2y ago
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what an App Store policy is. You're reasoning as though the policy is for Apple to follow. No. It's for developers to follow. Apple can put whatever it wants on the App Store, the policies are guidance for developers to give them a fighting chance that their apps will be accepted. If Apple wants an app, it'll go on the store. If they don't, it won't.
- modeless 2y ago
  So Apple's decisions are arbitrary and capricious? Tim Cook testified to Congress that Apple's policies "are transparent and applied equally to developers of all sizes and in all categories". Did he commit perjury?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

eru 2y ago

Why the SEC specifically? Are you suggesting investors are hurt by this? If you want any part of any government to investigate, shouldn't you suggest some agency that's supposed to be working for consumer welfare or so?

modeless 2y ago
If there is any kind of undisclosed arrangement between Apple and Roblox then there's a clear case for securities fraud IMO. There's a huge risk to Roblox were any such deal to unravel, both from the threat of competition being allowed and from the possibility of Apple starting to enforce their published policies on Roblox. For public companies, risks like that must be disclosed.
- chii 2y ago
  > undisclosed arrangement between Apple and Roblox then there's a clear case for securities fraud IMO not all undisclosed arrangements constitute securities fraud - only those whose intent is to defraud investors do. As for anti-competitive measures, the investigation ought to be from the consumer protection agencies, like the FCC, or from the justice department regarding anti-trust.
  - modeless 2y ago
    You are right that not all undisclosed arrangements are securities fraud. However, an undisclosed arrangement that represents an existential risk to the company were it to ever change would be securities fraud. You can't go public with huge undisclosed risks like that.
    - impulser_ 2y ago
      They disclose risks under Risk Factors in their quarterly filings.
      - modeless 2y ago
        Obviously, like all public companies. But have they disclosed the specific risk that Apple might stop giving them special treatment and stop protecting them from competition or start enforcing the policies they violate? I believe I read their S-1 some time ago and didn't find any mention of special treatment from Apple. It's possible they started disclosing it later, but even that would still expose them to shareholder lawsuits from IPO investors. Edit: They are also vulnerable to insider whistleblowers. Any whistleblower would be eligible for rewards of 10-30% of any penalty ultimately assessed by the SEC. The SEC has paid tens of millions to single whistleblowers in the past.
        impulser_ 2y ago
        They don't have to disclose specific of a deal. "We depend on effectively operating with third-party mobile operating systems, hardware, and networks that may make changes affecting our operating costs, as well as our ability to maintain our Platform which would hurt our ability to operate our business. For the three months ended June 30, 2024, 30% of our revenue was attributable to Robux sales through the Apple App Store and 16% of our revenue was attributable to Robux sales through the Google Play Store. Because of the significant use of our Platform on mobile devices, our application must remain interoperable with these and other popular mobile app stores and platforms, and related hardware. We are subject to the standard policies and terms of service of these operating systems, as well as policies and terms of service of the various software application stores that make our application and experiences available to our developers, creators, and users. These policies and terms of service govern the availability, promotion, distribution, content, and operation of applications and experiences on such operating systems and stores. Each provider of these operating systems and stores has broad discretion to change and interpret its terms of service and policies with respect to our Platform and those changes may be unfavorable to us and our developers’, creators’, and users’ use of our Platform. If an operating system provider or application store limits or discontinues access to, or changes the terms governing, its operating system or store for any reason, it could adversely affect our business, financial condition, or results of operations."
- jameshart 2y ago
  Apple can and does change even the written terms of AppStore service on a whim without warning. The risk that Apple suddenly changes its unwritten enforcement policy to your detriment is not that much different than the risk that they just change their Ts and Cs entirely. Apple’s walled garden, Apple’s rules. ANY publicly traded company that relies on the Apple AppStore for a significant portion of its revenue has an implied ‘so long as Apple continue to allow us to do this’ caveat hanging over their revenue forecasts.
  - eru 2y ago
    And when they are subject to US regulations, they typically make that implicit caveat into explicit disclosure. See eg https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41303671 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41303671

saint- 2y ago

Curious, why is Roblox in violation of Apple's App store policies?

modeless 2y ago
> Apps should be self-contained in their bundles, and may not read or write data outside the designated container area, nor may they download, install, or execute code which introduces or changes features or functionality of the app, including other apps. Roblox is in clear violation of this clause, downloading and executing entire games written in Lua. Apple does have an exception to this policy for HTML5 games and streaming games but Roblox does not qualify because it is not HTML5 and not streaming. Many people have had their businesses destroyed for far less serious violations of App Store policy. I believe there are also other rules against putting an app store inside your App Store app. Clearly Roblox is an app store for games, with its own currency. Apple has not been reasonable on this point with other companies: they originally didn't even want to allow cloud game streaming apps to play multiple games in a single app. Their ridiculous plan was to require a separate Apple App Store listing for each game that a streaming platform supported, and they only relented under pressure after Microsoft went public with their complaints: https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/11/21433071/microsoft-apple-app-store-rules-xcloud-game-streaming-xbox-game-pass https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/11/21433071/microsoft-apple-... And after that debacle they explicitly added exceptions to their policies for game streaming apps. They have never done so for Roblox-like apps, which are still plainly forbidden under their publicly posted policies.
- chad1n 2y ago
  You can make the same argument about Minecraft since servers download you texture packs, data packs or skins. I don't think that Apple should stop these apps, that's their game model.
  - modeless 2y ago
    Roblox games are not comparable to texture packs or skins. They are complete games with assets and executable code, or at least the fancy ones are. Maybe data packs are more similar but it seems like Minecraft for iOS does not support them.

thomas34298 2y ago

I think the same argument could be made for Twitter/X. The app stores by Google and Apple specifically disallow pornographic material, yet the app is full of it. Once you're big and important enough, the rules mostly don't apply for you anymore. Of course, if they tried to circumvent the app store tax directly within the app, there would be consequences, but as long as Google/Apple can make a profit, it's okay it seems.

drexlspivey 2y ago
Can an aggregator/distributor be liable for user created content? You can find porn in Reddit or Google Search and these apps are still in the app store so I don’t think they are getting any special treatment.
- BlueTemplar 2y ago
  There are some protections for hosting illegal data (real illegal, not EULA-disapproved), but they tend to go away if the host does any kind of editorializing (like showing the data through an algorithmic feed). Google Search is different yet, since they aren't the primary host.
- theshrike79 2y ago
  Even Tapatalk had to filter out "adult" forums - and it's just a client to connect to 3rd party forums. On Twitter you can find actual porn straight up.
- XlA5vEKsMISoIln 2y ago
  Didn't work out for Organic Maps. Merely allowing to access map data makes you un-family-friendly. Or at least that's what we can assume, since Google won't indulge in specifics. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41272925 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41272925
hoseja 2y ago
I don't think I've ever actually seen any porn on eXtwitter. (Well, on main.) Why was a perfectly fine Unicode Blackboard X filtered out of my post.

ec109685 2y ago

Roblox gets away with this due to the framing that it’s a single platform with many different experiences: “To start, Roblox is not a single game. It's a platform that hosts millions of user-generated experiences, such as historical roleplaying games or virtual labs to simulate physics experiments. Because of the diversity of content you'll find on Roblox, we use the term experience to refer to what you play on Roblox.” https://create.roblox.com/docs/education/resources/frequently-asked-questions-education https://create.roblox.com/docs/education/resources/frequentl... From the epic trial, Apple addressed why it allows them in a pretty tortured manner: https://www.polygon.com/22440737/roblox-metaverse-game-experiences-apple-epic-trial https://www.polygon.com/22440737/roblox-metaverse-game-exper... I think the best argument is that you’re a single player across games, kids speak of “playing Roblox”, there are portals between worlds, etc. This comment makes the point that all games feel the same: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41287780 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41287780 It’s pretty different from what Epic wanted to do by offering completely separate games in their App Store without paying apple commission.

modeless 2y ago
How were they getting away with it for the 10 years before that when they were still calling them games and were still clearly in violation? It's pretty clear that the name change is just a retconned excuse and has nothing at all to do with the real reason.
- ProfessorLayton 2y ago
  Well, they actually did get banned from the App Store at one point, but successfully appealed. Here's a key part of this: Executives also have kids and they want to play Roblox on the go!
  - modeless 2y ago
    Yes, favoritism by Apple execs is the most plausible explanation to me. I wonder if Phil Schiller owns any RBLX shares...

2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago

> I believe they are significantly shielded from competition I think you're onto something. All of the nieces and nephews of mine that play Roblox do it on an iPad.

samatman 2y ago

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what an App Store policy is. You're reasoning as though the policy is for Apple to follow. No. It's for developers to follow. Apple can put whatever it wants on the App Store, the policies are guidance for developers to give them a fighting chance that their apps will be accepted. If Apple wants an app, it'll go on the store. If they don't, it won't.

modeless 2y ago
So Apple's decisions are arbitrary and capricious? Tim Cook testified to Congress that Apple's policies "are transparent and applied equally to developers of all sizes and in all categories". Did he commit perjury?