6 ms·

I'm so glad most European countries have robust labour laws which often favour the employee in case of doubt, not the employer. This type of behaviour - unilat

by sspiff 2y ago

I'm so glad most European countries have robust labour laws which often favour the employee in case of doubt, not the employer. This type of behaviour - unilaterally changing the employment agreement without even specifying them in their entirety! - should never be possible. I hope other employees and EU countries follow suit and slap X with more fines, if this impacted other citizens as well.

fhd2 2y ago
The problem is that you can still get fooled or bullied into accepting a bad deal. I suggest everyone working in the EU to learn their rights and to consult a lawyer when something doesn't feel right, doesn't cost much here, initial consultations are often even free. Don't sign something put in front of you before you had a chance to understand your position. The person who wants you to sign it had ample time to do that, you didn't. Same goes for accepting things that seem unfair via email or verbally, that can weaken your position already. I've been on both sides of the fence (mostly in Germany). As an employer, my approach was usually to be nice to employees I wanted to get rid of and to offer them a good severance package proactively. If you push an employee and give them ammunition to sue (and you fail to fool/bully them) it's gonna get a lot more expensive. Not to mention distracting/emotional. Just keep in mind that if you hire an FTE, you'll have to mentally put money aside to exit them at some point in the future. Hiring freelancers is more expensive, but doesn't carry these problems. I tend to mix FTEs and freelancers, partly to distribute the risks and costs. When talking to people in bad situations with their employer, I'm always surprised how little they know and how easily they're willing to take the short end of the stick. There's a deal between you and the company that specifies what you'll do for them and what you'll get in return, with legal context surrounding it. I think it's also good to be nice and willing to compromise in that situation, but employees generally don't seem to be aware of what a powerful position they're actually in, and don't feel they "deserve" that, or don't want to upset anyone. It's business at the end of the day, contracts. Don't be a bad business person, it's not like CEOs will respect or like you more if you don't put up a fight. Typically the opposite. The lack of these protections is one thing that, IMHO, warrants the comparatively high US salaries in tech. More risk, more reward - business 101 stuff.
- pavlov 2y ago
  > “I suggest everyone working in the EU to learn their rights and to consult a lawyer when something doesn't feel right, doesn't cost much here, initial consultations are often even free” In many European countries unions provide free legal support. Join the union even if things are good for you now, and you don’t have to go hunting for legal help if one day you feel like your employer isn’t being fair.
  - throwaway744678 2y ago
    You don't even need to join to get access to the support.
  - justincormack 2y ago
    In the UK ACAS provide free support as well.
    - GJim 2y ago
      ACAS are terrific.... ...a government body providing impartial advice for employers and employees to improve industrial relations. I can't recommend them enough. https://www.acas.org.uk/ https://www.acas.org.uk/
  - nolok 2y ago
    In France it's mandatory in a company to have a "company union", after 10 employee it's one representative (employee who has part of his paid time dedicated to employees support functions, and it grows to more and more the more employees there is. Whether those representative act on their own, or join a national union or syndicate, is their own decision, and they're elected every 4 years. Any meeting or importance between an employee and his employer, he can request one of the representative be present to assist him (and in some type of meeting, it is pretty much mandatory to avoid employer pressuring against). Etc etc ... Our system is far from perfect, but at least having SOMEONE in the company to turn to seem to make sense to me.
    - 2y ago
phoronixrly 2y ago
Can't wait until the US wakes up and we get an endless 'that's why the startup/innovation culture in the EU sucks and will never be comparable to the US'
- refurb 2y ago
  Is it wrong for people to voice views that you disagree with? The value of HN is hearing differing view points. It would be nice if people on HN tried to engage in a good willed nature rather than treating discussions like a struggle session. But to the topic at hand, in rapidly changing sectors, high levels of friction when it comes to employment has a cost. There is no free lunch in economics. When hiring employees means you’re hiring them effectively for life, it creates disincentives for hiring. Maybe you hiring consultants instead. Or maybe you make do and not hire at all. No doubt it benefits employees when it comes to job stability. But the cost can be not having those jobs at all. That’s something that has to be considered in the equation. The other thing is the employee obligations it creates. When I worked in Europe I had to give three months notice to quit. Either that or pay the company the equivalent of the salary I made. As an employee it was a penalty I couldn’t afford and thus opportunities at start ups that needed someone now were out of reach. Employee protections had a real cost to me. It’s pretty clear that Europe as a whole is willing to pay that cost, but it’s a choice. Nothing wrong with that, but one can’t make that choice then turn around and wonder why your innovative sectors are lagging other countries.
  - tovej 2y ago
    That is unbelievable to me. You always have the right to quit, and penalties are rare. The laws depend on the country you're in of course, but I've never heard of three months, and I've lived in Europe my whole life. Would you mind sharing the country you were working in?
    - vidarh 2y ago
      In Norway, 3 months notice is the norm, and you can be expected to work it. In practice, there's rarely much value in holding people to it (though it can happen) because someone who really doesn't want to be there isn't going to be a productive employee. But lots of people do stay the 3 months because people looking to hire are also used to often having to wait 3 months to get someone on full time.
Yeul 2y ago
Unemployment is low, rapidly aging society. Any company that treats it's people this way will find their workers looking for greener pastures.
mytailorisrich 2y ago
The issue in Europe is that in many countries the law goes to the opposite extreme. The level of 'protection' and rigidity is so high that it actually utimately hurts people because there are fewer opportunities and lower growth as a result.
valval 2y ago
Innovators and entrepreneurs in Europe are not happy about that, however. They can’t compete internationally because hiring people is so expensive.

by sspiff 2y ago

fhd2 2y ago

The problem is that you can still get fooled or bullied into accepting a bad deal. I suggest everyone working in the EU to learn their rights and to consult a lawyer when something doesn't feel right, doesn't cost much here, initial consultations are often even free. Don't sign something put in front of you before you had a chance to understand your position. The person who wants you to sign it had ample time to do that, you didn't. Same goes for accepting things that seem unfair via email or verbally, that can weaken your position already. I've been on both sides of the fence (mostly in Germany). As an employer, my approach was usually to be nice to employees I wanted to get rid of and to offer them a good severance package proactively. If you push an employee and give them ammunition to sue (and you fail to fool/bully them) it's gonna get a lot more expensive. Not to mention distracting/emotional. Just keep in mind that if you hire an FTE, you'll have to mentally put money aside to exit them at some point in the future. Hiring freelancers is more expensive, but doesn't carry these problems. I tend to mix FTEs and freelancers, partly to distribute the risks and costs. When talking to people in bad situations with their employer, I'm always surprised how little they know and how easily they're willing to take the short end of the stick. There's a deal between you and the company that specifies what you'll do for them and what you'll get in return, with legal context surrounding it. I think it's also good to be nice and willing to compromise in that situation, but employees generally don't seem to be aware of what a powerful position they're actually in, and don't feel they "deserve" that, or don't want to upset anyone. It's business at the end of the day, contracts. Don't be a bad business person, it's not like CEOs will respect or like you more if you don't put up a fight. Typically the opposite. The lack of these protections is one thing that, IMHO, warrants the comparatively high US salaries in tech. More risk, more reward - business 101 stuff.

pavlov 2y ago
> “I suggest everyone working in the EU to learn their rights and to consult a lawyer when something doesn't feel right, doesn't cost much here, initial consultations are often even free” In many European countries unions provide free legal support. Join the union even if things are good for you now, and you don’t have to go hunting for legal help if one day you feel like your employer isn’t being fair.
- throwaway744678 2y ago
  You don't even need to join to get access to the support.
- justincormack 2y ago
  In the UK ACAS provide free support as well.
  - GJim 2y ago
    ACAS are terrific.... ...a government body providing impartial advice for employers and employees to improve industrial relations. I can't recommend them enough. https://www.acas.org.uk/ https://www.acas.org.uk/
- nolok 2y ago
  In France it's mandatory in a company to have a "company union", after 10 employee it's one representative (employee who has part of his paid time dedicated to employees support functions, and it grows to more and more the more employees there is. Whether those representative act on their own, or join a national union or syndicate, is their own decision, and they're elected every 4 years. Any meeting or importance between an employee and his employer, he can request one of the representative be present to assist him (and in some type of meeting, it is pretty much mandatory to avoid employer pressuring against). Etc etc ... Our system is far from perfect, but at least having SOMEONE in the company to turn to seem to make sense to me.
  - 2y ago

phoronixrly 2y ago

Can't wait until the US wakes up and we get an endless 'that's why the startup/innovation culture in the EU sucks and will never be comparable to the US'

refurb 2y ago
Is it wrong for people to voice views that you disagree with? The value of HN is hearing differing view points. It would be nice if people on HN tried to engage in a good willed nature rather than treating discussions like a struggle session. But to the topic at hand, in rapidly changing sectors, high levels of friction when it comes to employment has a cost. There is no free lunch in economics. When hiring employees means you’re hiring them effectively for life, it creates disincentives for hiring. Maybe you hiring consultants instead. Or maybe you make do and not hire at all. No doubt it benefits employees when it comes to job stability. But the cost can be not having those jobs at all. That’s something that has to be considered in the equation. The other thing is the employee obligations it creates. When I worked in Europe I had to give three months notice to quit. Either that or pay the company the equivalent of the salary I made. As an employee it was a penalty I couldn’t afford and thus opportunities at start ups that needed someone now were out of reach. Employee protections had a real cost to me. It’s pretty clear that Europe as a whole is willing to pay that cost, but it’s a choice. Nothing wrong with that, but one can’t make that choice then turn around and wonder why your innovative sectors are lagging other countries.
- tovej 2y ago
  That is unbelievable to me. You always have the right to quit, and penalties are rare. The laws depend on the country you're in of course, but I've never heard of three months, and I've lived in Europe my whole life. Would you mind sharing the country you were working in?
  - vidarh 2y ago
    In Norway, 3 months notice is the norm, and you can be expected to work it. In practice, there's rarely much value in holding people to it (though it can happen) because someone who really doesn't want to be there isn't going to be a productive employee. But lots of people do stay the 3 months because people looking to hire are also used to often having to wait 3 months to get someone on full time.

Yeul 2y ago

Unemployment is low, rapidly aging society. Any company that treats it's people this way will find their workers looking for greener pastures.

mytailorisrich 2y ago

The issue in Europe is that in many countries the law goes to the opposite extreme. The level of 'protection' and rigidity is so high that it actually utimately hurts people because there are fewer opportunities and lower growth as a result.

valval 2y ago

Innovators and entrepreneurs in Europe are not happy about that, however. They can’t compete internationally because hiring people is so expensive.