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Considering that in Meta I heard (from friends) it is/was easier to work remotely and even easier to get into (they are less leetcode oriented) I would expect t

by pzo 2y ago

Considering that in Meta I heard (from friends) it is/was easier to work remotely and even easier to get into (they are less leetcode oriented) I would expect the problem with Google loosing is somewhere else. Google was loosing on many fronts for a while: - dart lost to typescript on web - angular lost to react - tensorflow looks like currently loosing to pytorch - seems like google got bored and more development is for JAX, Keras wrapper [0] - IMHO flutter will loose with react-native or kotlin compose multiplatform - compare github insights for details Meta on the other hand kickstarted open source Llama community. In this situation it's hard to bet on Gemmini or Gemma as 3rd party developer considering google projects kill records. The only project they were really to bet on and invest for the long run without getting tired early on was Chrome and Android. [0] https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=/g/11bwp1s2k3,/g/11gd3905v1&hl=en https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=...

websap 2y ago
Meta is the most leetcode heavy interviews for SWEs, they expect you to solve 2 leet code questions in every coding round.
- fer 2y ago
  Unsure Meta now, but FB was indeed absurdly leetcodish 10 years back.
  - mk67 2y ago
    Same when I interviewed ~1-2 years ago.
chii 2y ago
> Google was loosing on many fronts i believe this trend is a result of management culture and performance metrics that attempt to measure "impact", and correlate pay and promotions along those measures. It's the same reason why google products die when they don't reach mega-success (thus products getting killed off in spades recently). Nobody wants to be doing maintenance on projects started by somebody else - so as soon as the lead visionary leaves for better pastures, that project gets languished, and whoever takes over it cannot use it to generate promotion worthy impact.
- Iulioh 2y ago
  Yeah, i don't want to invest in anything google, i'm scared it will be uselss in 6mo. That's a big problem, a "support guarantee" could really help things. Google is now a AD platform with a search engine to sell stuff. I hoped a little bit in Fuchsia, it was the last one for me.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    >Google is now a AD platform with a search engine to sell stuff. NOW?! They were that for the past 20 years mate.
    - Iulioh 2y ago
      Yeah but the search engine provided a service good enough that you could overlook that I noticed today that they get rid of filters in the "products/shopping" tab FFS
    - cynicalsecurity 2y ago
      Their search isn't even so great any more. They tend to forcefully switch the user input to some generic terms. More than often duckduckgo produces better results for me. I started feeling comfortable using duckduckgo instead of google.
      - dartos 2y ago
        I’m not sure you understand how ingrained and far reaching Google ad manager is. Their search could die and they’d still be the biggest advertising player on the internet by leaps and bounds.
        Jensson 2y ago
        Facebook would be bigger.
        2y ago
logicchains 2y ago
>dart lost to typescript on web >angular lost to react >tensorflow looks like currently loosing to pytorch - seems like google got bored and more development is for JAX, Keras wrapper Google seems to have a deep-seated distrust for programming language theory, as well as a deep-seated distrust for its users. This combination produces awkward software and APIs that ignore modern PLT and take a "Google knows best" approach.
- throwaway123468 2y ago
  As someone who's been working with them a lot at the moment I'm going to say that the problems that google has are not anything to do with tensorflow or programming language theory and everything to do with the fact that the place is absolutely jam-packed with MBAs and other ex-McKinsey-type professional meeting attendees. This is really apparent if you are reasonably senior in an enterprise and deal with google as a vendor. Every meeting I attend with them has one or two engineers[1] struggling to breathe because there are at least 6 or 7 sales people, relationship managers or other non-doing non-technical middle-management spreadsheet jockeys stealing all the oxygen in the room.[2] I can only imagine how terrible it is to work there given that these folks have all the power internally. I've genuinely never dealt with an organization that seems this bad. [1] who are usually pretty good. [2] It's an internal joke at my enterprise how every meeting another new person from google shows up introduces themselves as head of some other microscopic facet of the corporate relationship.
  - redwood 2y ago
    If I had to guess you're probably an Enterprise customer of Google cloud? I'm not sure that's a representative take.. of course there's going to be a lot of sales and relationship manager types because you're a customer of their Enterprise offering.. internally Google's completely different
  - thanksgiving 2y ago
    Something changed recently though because yes there are those MBA types but the engineer in the room used to be not a sales type person. Now (earlier this year, just before IO), even the engineers are becoming more like salespeople in my experience. My guess is there is pressure for everyone to make more money somehow?
spi 2y ago
I know nothing about what makes an industry succeed or fail, and also nothing about web tech, but working in the field I can comment on: > tensorflow looks like currently loosing to pytorch - seems like google got bored and more development is for JAX, Keras wrapper Well, TensorFlow doesn't "look like currently losing", it has already lost since a long time. I haven't seen a decent paper release code in TensorFlow in years, and all the references I see to TF online are job posts from "older" companies (to the point that, if you are looking for a job in data science, seeing TF mentioned in the job post is kind of a red flag of a place you don't want to be). That said, I am quite certain that this has only a small impact on why Google is losing terrain, and even on why it is behind in AI (which is also debatable: narrative aside, Gemini is not that much lacking behind competitors). Certainly if TensorFlow + TPUs turned out to be better than PyTorch + GPUs they would have had a lead to start from, but if that was so important, Meta or NVIDIA would have created the first LLM, not OpenAI. Simply, sometimes stuff happens, you can't predict it all.
deleted 2y ago
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eclectic29 2y ago
Meta is less leetcode oriented? I'm shocked to read this. Meta is the poster child for leetcode style interviews. Meta requires you to solve 2 leetcode style questions in 35 mins (out of 45 mins - first 5 mins for initial pleasantries, last 5 mins for asking questions). For each question, you're required to (based on the signals they look for) ask clarifying questions, present a solution to the interviewer, get buy-in, code, verify with test cases - all this in 17.5 mins/question. Go figure! :-)
letitgo12345 2y ago
Tensorflow losing has nothing to do with Google getting bored -- it's vice versa. Tensorflow is a symbolic framework, which is less intuitive to work with for most people than the Pytorch. Not to mention the errors Tensorflow generates are more annoying to debug (again more an issue with the fact that it's symbolic than any lack of effort on part of Google) Google tried to fix it by introducing an eager mode in Tensorflow but by then it was too late.
- michaelt 2y ago
  > Google tried to fix it by introducing an eager mode in Tensorflow but by then it was too late. And the fix was "new major version with a fundamentally different programming paradigm" But it turns out when your users are irritated with your product, and you tell them to change to a fundamentally different programming paradigm, the new programming paradigm they change to might not be yours.
- janalsncm 2y ago
  Intuitive has nothing to do with it. Developers will tend to prefer things that make their lives easier. Debuggability is a huge part of that. Tf 1.0 having a static execution graph was a major pain. No wonder people switched to PyTorch and didn’t look back.
ubercore 2y ago
All of those examples (except maybe tensorflow, I don't know enough to say for sure) are interesting because they highlight a more "googly" approach to the problems. Typescript is a superset of javascript, Dart isn't (though it transpiles). Flutter implements its own widgets, react native controls native widgets.
nvarsj 2y ago
> Considering that in Meta I heard (from friends) it is/was easier to work remotely and even easier to get into (they are less leetcode oriented) This is a weird take. It might pertain to 2020 during Covid when Meta encouraged remote working, but it's not like that anymore. Interviews were always leetcode focused so nothing changed there. Meta is an interesting comparison because the performance culture has historically been way tougher than Google (sans Covid years). It's quite a shock for a lot of Xooglers who join. One Xoogler at Meta who told me they only used to work 4-6 hours a day at Google. That is basically impossible in Meta - you have to constantly prove your value and the perf bar is high. I think Google is changing now though and I wouldn't be surprised at all to see them adopt Meta/Amazon style perf cultures in the future. Source: I work at Meta, and have close friends at Google.
- theGnuMe 2y ago
  The grind catches up to you. Your body keeps the score, don't let them fool you. All these asshole managers like Schmidt.
  - nvarsj 2y ago
    I agree it takes a toll - but you get well compensated for it.
    - theGnuMe 2y ago
      Not really in the grand scheme of things.
      - lazide 2y ago
        Compared to at least as bad, or even worse ‘toll’, for dramatically less pay in literally every other industry and 95% of every other companies in this one? Bwaha. Have you ever worked in another industry? Retail? Healthcare? Trades? Public safety? Tech is a walk in the park, relatively speaking.
        2y ago
deleted 2y ago
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make3 2y ago
the tensorflow and jax thing is 100% over, everyone uses pytorch both in academia and the industry, at least in the western world
yeukhon 2y ago
Dart, angular don't matter in business. They are just "passionate" projects. Google's culture of having multiple teams trying to build and scrape and never commit to a product is a big problem. They aren't slow to adopt to trends but they always seem to "overthink" about products. So when they lose the edge they close the door on the product. In the case of Google Meet, Good Lord, they renamed at least six times before they finally settled.
etc-hosts 2y ago
I recently did interviews with Meta, Google, Amazon, Apple, Nvidia... Meta leetcoded the ** out of me. They were insisting on 3 days in office. Definitely the hardest interviews out of the bunch. Never got around to answering Netflix recruiter to get the tradition "N" in FAANG out of the way, I took the first offer I got, I was so tired of interviewing.

by pzo 2y ago

websap 2y ago

Meta is the most leetcode heavy interviews for SWEs, they expect you to solve 2 leet code questions in every coding round.

fer 2y ago
Unsure Meta now, but FB was indeed absurdly leetcodish 10 years back.
- mk67 2y ago
  Same when I interviewed ~1-2 years ago.

chii 2y ago

> Google was loosing on many fronts i believe this trend is a result of management culture and performance metrics that attempt to measure "impact", and correlate pay and promotions along those measures. It's the same reason why google products die when they don't reach mega-success (thus products getting killed off in spades recently). Nobody wants to be doing maintenance on projects started by somebody else - so as soon as the lead visionary leaves for better pastures, that project gets languished, and whoever takes over it cannot use it to generate promotion worthy impact.

Iulioh 2y ago
Yeah, i don't want to invest in anything google, i'm scared it will be uselss in 6mo. That's a big problem, a "support guarantee" could really help things. Google is now a AD platform with a search engine to sell stuff. I hoped a little bit in Fuchsia, it was the last one for me.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  >Google is now a AD platform with a search engine to sell stuff. NOW?! They were that for the past 20 years mate.
  - Iulioh 2y ago
    Yeah but the search engine provided a service good enough that you could overlook that I noticed today that they get rid of filters in the "products/shopping" tab FFS
  - cynicalsecurity 2y ago
    Their search isn't even so great any more. They tend to forcefully switch the user input to some generic terms. More than often duckduckgo produces better results for me. I started feeling comfortable using duckduckgo instead of google.
    - dartos 2y ago
      I’m not sure you understand how ingrained and far reaching Google ad manager is. Their search could die and they’d still be the biggest advertising player on the internet by leaps and bounds.
      - Jensson 2y ago
        Facebook would be bigger.
        2y ago

logicchains 2y ago

>dart lost to typescript on web >angular lost to react >tensorflow looks like currently loosing to pytorch - seems like google got bored and more development is for JAX, Keras wrapper Google seems to have a deep-seated distrust for programming language theory, as well as a deep-seated distrust for its users. This combination produces awkward software and APIs that ignore modern PLT and take a "Google knows best" approach.

throwaway123468 2y ago
As someone who's been working with them a lot at the moment I'm going to say that the problems that google has are not anything to do with tensorflow or programming language theory and everything to do with the fact that the place is absolutely jam-packed with MBAs and other ex-McKinsey-type professional meeting attendees. This is really apparent if you are reasonably senior in an enterprise and deal with google as a vendor. Every meeting I attend with them has one or two engineers[1] struggling to breathe because there are at least 6 or 7 sales people, relationship managers or other non-doing non-technical middle-management spreadsheet jockeys stealing all the oxygen in the room.[2] I can only imagine how terrible it is to work there given that these folks have all the power internally. I've genuinely never dealt with an organization that seems this bad. [1] who are usually pretty good. [2] It's an internal joke at my enterprise how every meeting another new person from google shows up introduces themselves as head of some other microscopic facet of the corporate relationship.
- redwood 2y ago
  If I had to guess you're probably an Enterprise customer of Google cloud? I'm not sure that's a representative take.. of course there's going to be a lot of sales and relationship manager types because you're a customer of their Enterprise offering.. internally Google's completely different
- thanksgiving 2y ago
  Something changed recently though because yes there are those MBA types but the engineer in the room used to be not a sales type person. Now (earlier this year, just before IO), even the engineers are becoming more like salespeople in my experience. My guess is there is pressure for everyone to make more money somehow?

spi 2y ago

I know nothing about what makes an industry succeed or fail, and also nothing about web tech, but working in the field I can comment on: > tensorflow looks like currently loosing to pytorch - seems like google got bored and more development is for JAX, Keras wrapper Well, TensorFlow doesn't "look like currently losing", it has already lost since a long time. I haven't seen a decent paper release code in TensorFlow in years, and all the references I see to TF online are job posts from "older" companies (to the point that, if you are looking for a job in data science, seeing TF mentioned in the job post is kind of a red flag of a place you don't want to be). That said, I am quite certain that this has only a small impact on why Google is losing terrain, and even on why it is behind in AI (which is also debatable: narrative aside, Gemini is not that much lacking behind competitors). Certainly if TensorFlow + TPUs turned out to be better than PyTorch + GPUs they would have had a lead to start from, but if that was so important, Meta or NVIDIA would have created the first LLM, not OpenAI. Simply, sometimes stuff happens, you can't predict it all.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

eclectic29 2y ago

Meta is less leetcode oriented? I'm shocked to read this. Meta is the poster child for leetcode style interviews. Meta requires you to solve 2 leetcode style questions in 35 mins (out of 45 mins - first 5 mins for initial pleasantries, last 5 mins for asking questions). For each question, you're required to (based on the signals they look for) ask clarifying questions, present a solution to the interviewer, get buy-in, code, verify with test cases - all this in 17.5 mins/question. Go figure! :-)

letitgo12345 2y ago

Tensorflow losing has nothing to do with Google getting bored -- it's vice versa. Tensorflow is a symbolic framework, which is less intuitive to work with for most people than the Pytorch. Not to mention the errors Tensorflow generates are more annoying to debug (again more an issue with the fact that it's symbolic than any lack of effort on part of Google) Google tried to fix it by introducing an eager mode in Tensorflow but by then it was too late.

michaelt 2y ago
> Google tried to fix it by introducing an eager mode in Tensorflow but by then it was too late. And the fix was "new major version with a fundamentally different programming paradigm" But it turns out when your users are irritated with your product, and you tell them to change to a fundamentally different programming paradigm, the new programming paradigm they change to might not be yours.
janalsncm 2y ago
Intuitive has nothing to do with it. Developers will tend to prefer things that make their lives easier. Debuggability is a huge part of that. Tf 1.0 having a static execution graph was a major pain. No wonder people switched to PyTorch and didn’t look back.

ubercore 2y ago

All of those examples (except maybe tensorflow, I don't know enough to say for sure) are interesting because they highlight a more "googly" approach to the problems. Typescript is a superset of javascript, Dart isn't (though it transpiles). Flutter implements its own widgets, react native controls native widgets.

nvarsj 2y ago

> Considering that in Meta I heard (from friends) it is/was easier to work remotely and even easier to get into (they are less leetcode oriented) This is a weird take. It might pertain to 2020 during Covid when Meta encouraged remote working, but it's not like that anymore. Interviews were always leetcode focused so nothing changed there. Meta is an interesting comparison because the performance culture has historically been way tougher than Google (sans Covid years). It's quite a shock for a lot of Xooglers who join. One Xoogler at Meta who told me they only used to work 4-6 hours a day at Google. That is basically impossible in Meta - you have to constantly prove your value and the perf bar is high. I think Google is changing now though and I wouldn't be surprised at all to see them adopt Meta/Amazon style perf cultures in the future. Source: I work at Meta, and have close friends at Google.

theGnuMe 2y ago
The grind catches up to you. Your body keeps the score, don't let them fool you. All these asshole managers like Schmidt.
- nvarsj 2y ago
  I agree it takes a toll - but you get well compensated for it.
  - theGnuMe 2y ago
    Not really in the grand scheme of things.
    - lazide 2y ago
      Compared to at least as bad, or even worse ‘toll’, for dramatically less pay in literally every other industry and 95% of every other companies in this one? Bwaha. Have you ever worked in another industry? Retail? Healthcare? Trades? Public safety? Tech is a walk in the park, relatively speaking.
      - 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

make3 2y ago

the tensorflow and jax thing is 100% over, everyone uses pytorch both in academia and the industry, at least in the western world

yeukhon 2y ago

Dart, angular don't matter in business. They are just "passionate" projects. Google's culture of having multiple teams trying to build and scrape and never commit to a product is a big problem. They aren't slow to adopt to trends but they always seem to "overthink" about products. So when they lose the edge they close the door on the product. In the case of Google Meet, Good Lord, they renamed at least six times before they finally settled.

etc-hosts 2y ago

I recently did interviews with Meta, Google, Amazon, Apple, Nvidia... Meta leetcoded the ** out of me. They were insisting on 3 days in office. Definitely the hardest interviews out of the bunch. Never got around to answering Netflix recruiter to get the tradition "N" in FAANG out of the way, I took the first offer I got, I was so tired of interviewing.