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A recurring theme in so many startups I've seen inside is how the CEO in particular is extremely aloof with regards to presence. Sometimes that translates to al

by rtpg 2y ago

A recurring theme in so many startups I've seen inside is how the CEO in particular is extremely aloof with regards to presence. Sometimes that translates to aloofness for staff, but what more often happens is that when the CEO _does_ come in they expect other people to be there. So long as the alignment is good they don't care, but when it's not aligned, they just assume nobody is ever around and get real pissy about people showing up on time. Fortunately the "good" ones are able to disassociate how much of that emotion is just them being lonely vs how much of it is actual synergy-seeking or whatever. The worst cases are people who get real tyranical, on top of just like... outright not showing up to do the actual day-to-day work that they are blockers on. A proper theory of the mind can often be quite absent. My really glib take on this phenomenom is that a not-insignificant chunk of decision making for HR stuff is "make the CEO fill the tip-top of their Maslovian pyramind". And to a lesser extent other executives who have decided that their job is their life. Very annoying to listen to post-facto RTO arguments when you can feel the loneliness as the driving factor. Make a fun space, and make people's work schedules be loose enough to where they can actually relax in the space, and some people will show up! Or at the very least, give the CEO a fun side project to work on or something.

RangerScience 2y ago
> A proper theory of the mind can often be quite absent. +1 spicy! > Make a fun space, and make people's work schedules be loose enough to where they can actually relax in the space, and some people will show up! I've tried to tell this to a couple of places that wanted me to work in a office. The conversations didn't go anywhere - perhaps because of your prior quote? :)
- threatofrain 2y ago
  IMO theory of mind fails at scale and distance due to the sheer diversity of humanity and disconnection from local signals. No human can accomplish this, which is why we need population-level studies.
- theendisney4 2y ago
  I found the solution one time but it is hard to reproduce: I make an angry face and shout from up close "It is important that people enjoy working here. Do you understand?" Then I laugh at my own joke.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
brandon272 2y ago
> Sometimes that translates to aloofness for staff, but what more often happens is that when the CEO _does_ come in they expect other people to be there. Anecdotally, I have seen companies that have "oscillations" in their WFH policy and this, in my experience, has often been the driver of it. Instead of putting trust in the process or the data, you will simply have a situation where the CEO or (especially) where a group of the top level execs are all in the office on a particular day when the office 'feels empty', which then results in a "where is everyone" conversation. Couple that with a sniff of an internal deadline being missed or something behind schedule and suddenly you have a perfect storm of discontent resulting in updated WFH rules and policies being hastily fired off without regard to actual performance data or previous commitments or conclusions drawn around WFH policy. > Make a fun space, and make people's work schedules be loose enough to where they can actually relax in the space, and some people will show up! Personally, I don't care about having my workplace be fun or loaded with too many amenities. But if I'm going to be in a company workplace, I do need an office with a closing door if I'm expected to be able to focus and be productive. So much of the insanity with the WFH debate is employers who think that people can be productive or enjoy their work when working in loud, open-concept office configurations. For a lot of employees the WFH vs. office debate then feels very much a "my private, quiet home office vs. chaotic, loud office environment" debate.
- whiterknight 2y ago
  > a group of the top level execs are all in the office on a particular day when the office 'feels empty' > internal deadline being missed What indicators would justify a change in WFH policy?
  - brandon272 2y ago
    No worthwhile indicators, other than the gut feelings of the decision makers in that moment.
  - BobaFloutist 2y ago
    I think they were talking about internal deadlines being missed at about baseline levels, but the timing coincides with when the execs happen to feel like the office is empty so they make a mental association. A measurable increase in missed deadlines is not what I think they meant.
Aloha 2y ago
We just send out an email when the boss is in town and ask folks to come in, and enough people do to make the office seem full - and that works, we will even fly people in sometimes.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  It’s a shame you can’t hire extras for the day to make the office lively. Edit: Maybe you can? Check with someone who does local casting?
  - randmeerkat 2y ago
    > Edit: Maybe you can? Check with someone who does local casting? And start an office pool on whether or not the boss even notices that they’re not real employees.
    - theendisney4 2y ago
      Give them good plot lines like: i dont think ive seen you here before? Do you normally work remote?
      - ryandrake 2y ago
        It's probably just enough to dress them in business casual, and have them walk around the office looking very serious and busy, talking on their cellphones about business-y stuff. All that matters is the "buzz" and "hum" and "pop" of SeriousBusiness getting done.
        randmeerkat 2y ago
        > It's probably just enough to dress them in business casual… Bonus points for how little effort you can get the actors to put in while still getting away with it. Just have them wear shorts, some tech vendor t-shirts, and put most of them in a conference room, while two people talk about the last “feature” release. If it’s not a tech related portion of the business, do the same, but say something about making casual “insert-day-of-the-week” and have said business group talk about how the last “feature” release impacted their section. Triple bonus points if you get the boss to join in on the discussion with no one knowing what the actual “feature” released was, without the boss figuring the whole thing out.
ibash 2y ago
Or… the ceo has a job where they need to be out meeting people. For sales, recruiting, etc They generally expect people who can work from the office are working from the office. For example they wouldn’t expect to see forward deployed engineers sitting at the office twiddling their thumbs…
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
pm90 2y ago
> And to a lesser extent other executives who have decided that their job is their life. This is key. CEO is one individual, maybe you luck out with someone thats self aware and doesn’t have their head up their behind. But with the exec team, almost certainly there will be one motherfucker that needs their ego stroked by having minions around when they’re in an office, taking calls or meetings.
fennecbutt 2y ago
This sort of CEO behavior is simply not so thinly veiled classism.
dvfjsdhgfv 2y ago
> pyramind this word fits in there perfectly

by rtpg 2y ago

RangerScience 2y ago

> A proper theory of the mind can often be quite absent. +1 spicy! > Make a fun space, and make people's work schedules be loose enough to where they can actually relax in the space, and some people will show up! I've tried to tell this to a couple of places that wanted me to work in a office. The conversations didn't go anywhere - perhaps because of your prior quote? :)

threatofrain 2y ago
IMO theory of mind fails at scale and distance due to the sheer diversity of humanity and disconnection from local signals. No human can accomplish this, which is why we need population-level studies.
theendisney4 2y ago
I found the solution one time but it is hard to reproduce: I make an angry face and shout from up close "It is important that people enjoy working here. Do you understand?" Then I laugh at my own joke.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

brandon272 2y ago

> Sometimes that translates to aloofness for staff, but what more often happens is that when the CEO _does_ come in they expect other people to be there. Anecdotally, I have seen companies that have "oscillations" in their WFH policy and this, in my experience, has often been the driver of it. Instead of putting trust in the process or the data, you will simply have a situation where the CEO or (especially) where a group of the top level execs are all in the office on a particular day when the office 'feels empty', which then results in a "where is everyone" conversation. Couple that with a sniff of an internal deadline being missed or something behind schedule and suddenly you have a perfect storm of discontent resulting in updated WFH rules and policies being hastily fired off without regard to actual performance data or previous commitments or conclusions drawn around WFH policy. > Make a fun space, and make people's work schedules be loose enough to where they can actually relax in the space, and some people will show up! Personally, I don't care about having my workplace be fun or loaded with too many amenities. But if I'm going to be in a company workplace, I do need an office with a closing door if I'm expected to be able to focus and be productive. So much of the insanity with the WFH debate is employers who think that people can be productive or enjoy their work when working in loud, open-concept office configurations. For a lot of employees the WFH vs. office debate then feels very much a "my private, quiet home office vs. chaotic, loud office environment" debate.

whiterknight 2y ago
> a group of the top level execs are all in the office on a particular day when the office 'feels empty' > internal deadline being missed What indicators would justify a change in WFH policy?
- brandon272 2y ago
  No worthwhile indicators, other than the gut feelings of the decision makers in that moment.
- BobaFloutist 2y ago
  I think they were talking about internal deadlines being missed at about baseline levels, but the timing coincides with when the execs happen to feel like the office is empty so they make a mental association. A measurable increase in missed deadlines is not what I think they meant.

Aloha 2y ago

We just send out an email when the boss is in town and ask folks to come in, and enough people do to make the office seem full - and that works, we will even fly people in sometimes.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
It’s a shame you can’t hire extras for the day to make the office lively. Edit: Maybe you can? Check with someone who does local casting?
- randmeerkat 2y ago
  > Edit: Maybe you can? Check with someone who does local casting? And start an office pool on whether or not the boss even notices that they’re not real employees.
  - theendisney4 2y ago
    Give them good plot lines like: i dont think ive seen you here before? Do you normally work remote?
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      It's probably just enough to dress them in business casual, and have them walk around the office looking very serious and busy, talking on their cellphones about business-y stuff. All that matters is the "buzz" and "hum" and "pop" of SeriousBusiness getting done.
      - randmeerkat 2y ago
        > It's probably just enough to dress them in business casual… Bonus points for how little effort you can get the actors to put in while still getting away with it. Just have them wear shorts, some tech vendor t-shirts, and put most of them in a conference room, while two people talk about the last “feature” release. If it’s not a tech related portion of the business, do the same, but say something about making casual “insert-day-of-the-week” and have said business group talk about how the last “feature” release impacted their section. Triple bonus points if you get the boss to join in on the discussion with no one knowing what the actual “feature” released was, without the boss figuring the whole thing out.

ibash 2y ago

Or… the ceo has a job where they need to be out meeting people. For sales, recruiting, etc They generally expect people who can work from the office are working from the office. For example they wouldn’t expect to see forward deployed engineers sitting at the office twiddling their thumbs…

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

pm90 2y ago

> And to a lesser extent other executives who have decided that their job is their life. This is key. CEO is one individual, maybe you luck out with someone thats self aware and doesn’t have their head up their behind. But with the exec team, almost certainly there will be one motherfucker that needs their ego stroked by having minions around when they’re in an office, taking calls or meetings.

fennecbutt 2y ago

This sort of CEO behavior is simply not so thinly veiled classism.

dvfjsdhgfv 2y ago

> pyramind this word fits in there perfectly