5 ms·

Kim DC is not a likeable or admirable person, but this vindictive pursuit seems even worse. It appears very similar to the treatment of Ross Ulbricht, Assange

Kim DC is not a likeable or admirable person, but this vindictive pursuit seems even worse. It appears very similar to the treatment of Ross Ulbricht, Assange, maybe even Snowden? These are the equivalent of white collar crimes (typical massive frauds from the finance sector, etc) but they are getting a blue collar punishment of decades in jail that a successful and persistent street drug dealer could receive, NOT the few years in comfort camp prison that white collar frauds usually get.

moomin 2y ago
I remain unconvinced that the relative punishments of the two categories is either pragmatic or fair, mind you.
- SkyBelow 2y ago
  One of the things worse than a bad law is an inconsistently applied bad law, as that allows for it to be tolerated for longer and effectively enshrines the basis for the inconsistency as the true law of the land.
- ToValueFunfetti 2y ago
  I'd go along with unfair, but it does seem pragmatic to keep criminals who would harm anyone in striking distance away from the public, while only keeping criminals who would harm corporate and investor interests away from executive positions and boardrooms.
tedivm 2y ago
One of these things is not like the other. Ross Ulbricht was part of a murder for hire scheme, and was not a whistle blower or anything close to a reporter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht#Murder-for-hire_allegations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht#Murder-for-hire_...
- A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
  I understand what you are saying, but I wonder if that is the right type of defense here. Each of those individuals could be separated from otherwise sympathetic audience by diving the audience( 'he is x$ and therefore bad' approach ). Same here. Murder for hire is bad, but his prosecution was about just as bad[1] and one could argue that (edit) by using warrantless spying without any probable cause undermined US constitutional rights. In a grand scheme of things, it is better to have one criminal get away than trample on everyone's rights. What they do have in common, however, is an inordinate amount of resources expended to punish them by the state.. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht#Murder-for-hire_allegations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht#Murder-for-hire_...
- yieldcrv 2y ago
  You realize that the moderators in question were Secret Service and DEA agents creating fictional scenarios to line their own pockets Their involvement and indictment was withheld during the Ross trial and they went to prison for that Ross was not charged for these scenes, the other district court is saving face by calling it redundant and dropping it but it’s really a shaky case It shouldn’t have been brought up in sentencing, but there is no accountability in a judge doing so https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/news/cyber-vault/2019-12-13/silk-road-investigation-dea-secret-service-agents-involvement-online-black-market-site https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/news/cyber-vault/2019-12-13/silk-r...
  - pc86 2y ago
    You're right that he wasn't charged, but: "For example, because Ulbricht contested his responsibility for the five commissioned murders for hire, the district court found by a preponderance of the evidence that Ulbricht did in fact commission the murders, believing that they would be carried out." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht#cite_note-46 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht#cite_note-46 Just because something doesn't rise to the level of provability of getting charged and sentenced for it doesn't mean that you can't say with a high level of confidence it happened.
    - 2y ago
e40 2y ago
Bernie Madoff got real prison time for his white collar crimes.
- chaostheory 2y ago
  Likely due to the high profile nature of his crime. He still only served time in a tame white collar prison too.
- EasyMark 2y ago
  I assume they’re talking about hiding being the corporate veil and just getting a slap on the wrist. Embezzlers are caught and sentenced all the time but people on the board of directors get away with a fine and finger waggle for similar activities
- underlipton 2y ago
  Bernie Madoff is notable because someone of his stature being pursued so vigorously is rare. If officials went after every financial industry criminal with the same energy, the financial industry would cease to exist. Likewise, executives who sign off on decisions that actually kill people (Boeing) rarely see jail time.
  - AmVess 2y ago
    They only went after Madoff because he stole from the rich.
walleeee 2y ago
Are the actions of these individuals really the equivalent of financial fraud? Assange and Snowden especially, who revealed to the public crimes perpetrated by agents of the US federal govt.
cies 2y ago
He's not one of "them" (bankers, politicians, lobbyists). Street dealers as well: not belong to "them". See how Epstein was punished in 2008: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Epstein#Legal_proceedings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Epstein#Legal_proceedi... "On June 30, 2008, after Epstein pleaded guilty to a state charge of procuring for prostitution a girl below age 18, he was sentenced to eighteen months in prison. While most convicted sex offenders in Florida are sent to state prison, Epstein was instead housed in a private wing of the Palm Beach County Stockade and [...] allowed to leave the jail on "work release" for up to twelve hours a day, six days a week." That's for a horrible crime. Not for allowing people to copy some audio and video files for entertainment purpose. He was one of "them".
- electriclove 2y ago
  Why is the parent comment being downvoted? Is it stating something incorrect or is the conclusion incorrect?
WarOnPrivacy 2y ago
> but this vindictive pursuit seems even worse. It's been profitable for the US agencies that stole millions for KDC https://www.techdirt.com/2015/03/27/how-us-government-legally-stole-millions-kim-dotcom/ https://www.techdirt.com/2015/03/27/how-us-government-legall...
bee_rider 2y ago
White collar crimes should be punished with the same vigor as blue collar ones. White collar crimes mostly steal money, at scale. Insufficient money is a huge cause of suffering—people don’t get to retire at early, they and their kids don’t get the opportunities they would have had otherwise. You can be a drug dealer that doesn’t hurt anybody.
- ineedaj0b 2y ago
  No. Drug dealers always hurt people - we have the word Pharmacist for good drug dispensers.
  - EasyMark 2y ago
    There is a huge difference between a regulated and controlled system and your neighborhood methhead mixing up something in his kitchen to sell to the kids a couple of blocks over
    - bee_rider 2y ago
      Regulated and controlled systems sold a ton of opioids.
    - bpmooch 2y ago
      your name is extremely ironic next to your post
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    Do you actually believe that or is this some sort of rhetorical point? This stretches my suspension of disbelief to be honest. People can buy very addictive drugs from pharmacists (legal drugs are a huge contributor to the opioid epidemic), and there were doctors in some areas that were known for being extremely lax about that sort of thing. Lots of the illegal drug dealers do sell really harmful stuff. But before it was legalized they sold weed… We should not pretend our laws are perfect, they are always undergoing refinement.
  - butlike 2y ago
WarOnPrivacy 2y ago
US Gov's revenge-deployment machine was first put in motion at the request copyright industry (which funds elections). Through the 2000s and 2010s, legislators (and by extension LEO agencies) were extremely responsive to whims of copyright lobbyists. ex: ICE agents patrolling events for locals selling knock-off goods. It was so pervasive, news orgs noticed it - and even covered some non-sensational incidents. Though I don't recall journalists ever following the money.
fastball 2y ago
Don't forget Aaron Swartz.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
edm0nd 2y ago
>but this vindictive pursuit seems even worse. Seems to be pretty much how the US government operates on these high profile tech cases. They are going to turn you into a martyr. Ross is a great example of this. He received a double life sentence + 40 years + no chance of parole. By comparison, El Chapo, a dude who most certainly ordered the deaths of many and imported billions of dollars of drugs, only got a SINGLE life sentence + no chance of parole. That is not justice, its a message.

moomin 2y ago

I remain unconvinced that the relative punishments of the two categories is either pragmatic or fair, mind you.

SkyBelow 2y ago
One of the things worse than a bad law is an inconsistently applied bad law, as that allows for it to be tolerated for longer and effectively enshrines the basis for the inconsistency as the true law of the land.
ToValueFunfetti 2y ago
I'd go along with unfair, but it does seem pragmatic to keep criminals who would harm anyone in striking distance away from the public, while only keeping criminals who would harm corporate and investor interests away from executive positions and boardrooms.

tedivm 2y ago

One of these things is not like the other. Ross Ulbricht was part of a murder for hire scheme, and was not a whistle blower or anything close to a reporter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht#Murder-for-hire_allegations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht#Murder-for-hire_...

A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
I understand what you are saying, but I wonder if that is the right type of defense here. Each of those individuals could be separated from otherwise sympathetic audience by diving the audience( 'he is x$ and therefore bad' approach ). Same here. Murder for hire is bad, but his prosecution was about just as bad[1] and one could argue that (edit) by using warrantless spying without any probable cause undermined US constitutional rights. In a grand scheme of things, it is better to have one criminal get away than trample on everyone's rights. What they do have in common, however, is an inordinate amount of resources expended to punish them by the state.. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht#Murder-for-hire_allegations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht#Murder-for-hire_...
yieldcrv 2y ago
You realize that the moderators in question were Secret Service and DEA agents creating fictional scenarios to line their own pockets Their involvement and indictment was withheld during the Ross trial and they went to prison for that Ross was not charged for these scenes, the other district court is saving face by calling it redundant and dropping it but it’s really a shaky case It shouldn’t have been brought up in sentencing, but there is no accountability in a judge doing so https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/news/cyber-vault/2019-12-13/silk-road-investigation-dea-secret-service-agents-involvement-online-black-market-site https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/news/cyber-vault/2019-12-13/silk-r...
- pc86 2y ago
  You're right that he wasn't charged, but: "For example, because Ulbricht contested his responsibility for the five commissioned murders for hire, the district court found by a preponderance of the evidence that Ulbricht did in fact commission the murders, believing that they would be carried out." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht#cite_note-46 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht#cite_note-46 Just because something doesn't rise to the level of provability of getting charged and sentenced for it doesn't mean that you can't say with a high level of confidence it happened.
  - 2y ago

e40 2y ago

Bernie Madoff got real prison time for his white collar crimes.

chaostheory 2y ago
Likely due to the high profile nature of his crime. He still only served time in a tame white collar prison too.
EasyMark 2y ago
I assume they’re talking about hiding being the corporate veil and just getting a slap on the wrist. Embezzlers are caught and sentenced all the time but people on the board of directors get away with a fine and finger waggle for similar activities
underlipton 2y ago
Bernie Madoff is notable because someone of his stature being pursued so vigorously is rare. If officials went after every financial industry criminal with the same energy, the financial industry would cease to exist. Likewise, executives who sign off on decisions that actually kill people (Boeing) rarely see jail time.
- AmVess 2y ago
  They only went after Madoff because he stole from the rich.

walleeee 2y ago

Are the actions of these individuals really the equivalent of financial fraud? Assange and Snowden especially, who revealed to the public crimes perpetrated by agents of the US federal govt.

cies 2y ago

He's not one of "them" (bankers, politicians, lobbyists). Street dealers as well: not belong to "them". See how Epstein was punished in 2008: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Epstein#Legal_proceedings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Epstein#Legal_proceedi... "On June 30, 2008, after Epstein pleaded guilty to a state charge of procuring for prostitution a girl below age 18, he was sentenced to eighteen months in prison. While most convicted sex offenders in Florida are sent to state prison, Epstein was instead housed in a private wing of the Palm Beach County Stockade and [...] allowed to leave the jail on "work release" for up to twelve hours a day, six days a week." That's for a horrible crime. Not for allowing people to copy some audio and video files for entertainment purpose. He was one of "them".

electriclove 2y ago
Why is the parent comment being downvoted? Is it stating something incorrect or is the conclusion incorrect?

WarOnPrivacy 2y ago

> but this vindictive pursuit seems even worse. It's been profitable for the US agencies that stole millions for KDC https://www.techdirt.com/2015/03/27/how-us-government-legally-stole-millions-kim-dotcom/ https://www.techdirt.com/2015/03/27/how-us-government-legall...

bee_rider 2y ago

White collar crimes should be punished with the same vigor as blue collar ones. White collar crimes mostly steal money, at scale. Insufficient money is a huge cause of suffering—people don’t get to retire at early, they and their kids don’t get the opportunities they would have had otherwise. You can be a drug dealer that doesn’t hurt anybody.

ineedaj0b 2y ago
No. Drug dealers always hurt people - we have the word Pharmacist for good drug dispensers.
- EasyMark 2y ago
  There is a huge difference between a regulated and controlled system and your neighborhood methhead mixing up something in his kitchen to sell to the kids a couple of blocks over
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    Regulated and controlled systems sold a ton of opioids.
  - bpmooch 2y ago
    your name is extremely ironic next to your post
- bee_rider 2y ago
  Do you actually believe that or is this some sort of rhetorical point? This stretches my suspension of disbelief to be honest. People can buy very addictive drugs from pharmacists (legal drugs are a huge contributor to the opioid epidemic), and there were doctors in some areas that were known for being extremely lax about that sort of thing. Lots of the illegal drug dealers do sell really harmful stuff. But before it was legalized they sold weed… We should not pretend our laws are perfect, they are always undergoing refinement.
- butlike 2y ago

WarOnPrivacy 2y ago

US Gov's revenge-deployment machine was first put in motion at the request copyright industry (which funds elections). Through the 2000s and 2010s, legislators (and by extension LEO agencies) were extremely responsive to whims of copyright lobbyists. ex: ICE agents patrolling events for locals selling knock-off goods. It was so pervasive, news orgs noticed it - and even covered some non-sensational incidents. Though I don't recall journalists ever following the money.

fastball 2y ago

Don't forget Aaron Swartz.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

edm0nd 2y ago

>but this vindictive pursuit seems even worse. Seems to be pretty much how the US government operates on these high profile tech cases. They are going to turn you into a martyr. Ross is a great example of this. He received a double life sentence + 40 years + no chance of parole. By comparison, El Chapo, a dude who most certainly ordered the deaths of many and imported billions of dollars of drugs, only got a SINGLE life sentence + no chance of parole. That is not justice, its a message.