5 ms·

I think he meant it along the lines of how many successful (however you define that) 50 year old programmers do you run into? Most people who start out their c

I think he meant it along the lines of how many successful (however you define that) 50 year old programmers do you run into? Most people who start out their careers doing code eventually migrate into management or something more lucrative by that point.

potatolicious 18y ago
That's true for all industries. That 50 year-old banker is not the guy who's running around on the trading floor all day - he's probably a manager of some sort as well. Similarly, if you go into other engineering fields (electrical, mechanical, civil, etc) nearly all the 50 year-olds are managers also.
- gaius 18y ago
  But how does that scale? What's the ratio of managers to workers? For every 10 20-something new CS graduates, there's maybe 1 50-something manager. What happened to the other 9? This isn't a new problem, after all the Army needs only 1 Colonel for every 12-16 Lieutenants... The option to stay on as a junior officer until retirement doesn't exist, it's "up or out".
mechanical_fish 18y ago
One problem with discussions like this is that "programming" has an absurdly narrow definition. If you aren't actually spending the majority of your day typing code into emacs and fixing Javascript bugs, you are not a "programmer": you have "migrated into management". A senior law partner who never personally argues a case or drafts a contract, but does nothing but attend meetings all day and supervise younger partners and paralegals, is still "practicing law". The chiefs of large hospital departments are still "doctors" even when they don't pick up a stethoscope for days at a time. Late in Beethoven's career, when he was almost completely deaf, no longer able to perform or even to critique other performers, he was still a "musician". Whereas (e.g.) Joel Spolsky is now a "manager". Except when he's working on Arc, PG is more likely to be called a "manager" or an "angel investor" or a "venture capitalist" or a "technology pundit" or a "marketer" or a "writer" or a "teacher" or a "designer" or a "strategic consultant" or an "executive chef" (I think he does all of these things!) than a mere programmer. But just because these guys somehow don't fit our hyper-narrow definition of "programmer" doesn't necessarily mean that they had a problem with their software careers. It might just mean that there are many opportunities in software -- some quite rewarding or lucrative; many of which are best performed by someone who also knows how to program -- that aren't captured in the scope of the term programmer. Part of the reason why there seem to be so few "programmers" in their forties and fifties is that by that time many of them have dreamed up a better job title for themselves, like "senior member of the technical staff" or "chief of QA" or "Java architecture consultant" or even "co-founder" or "CEO". Spolsky loves to tell the story about his Bill Gates review: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/06/16.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/06/16.html At the time of that review, Bill Gates had not been called a programmer for years and years. He was a CEO and a co-founder, and was paid accordingly (and then some). But what was he doing when he reviewed a spec in gory, technical detail? He was programming. At a higher level than the average college intern, yes, but just because you're not touching a keyboard or dealing with individual calls to malloc doesn't mean you're not programming. Unless we decide that it does. But then we shouldn't be surprised to find that programming as a career is something that many people eventually grow out of. We've defined it that way -- as a term to describe an activity that doesn't scale well and that usually represents only a portion of a well-balanced intellectual or economic diet.
- timr 18y ago
  The conventional definition of "programmer" may be narrowly defined, but under no circumstances would I expand it to include the careers of Bill Gates, Joel Spolsky or your average "technology pundit". Those people may have written software at one point (and may still occasionally write code), but programming didn't make them famous. To define people like Steve Jobs as "programmers" is to so absurdly broaden the definition of the word, as to make it meaningless. After all, Steve Jobs once studied calligraphy (and even credited his studies for the development of the Macintosh!) -- should we label him a calligrapher? He makes music industry deals -- is he a musician? He buys rights to feature films -- is he a producer? He headed up Pixar -- is he an animator? I think there are good career opportunities in the technology industry, but for the most part, these careers don't involve programming. Your examples are telling: if you want to become a venture capitalist or a CEO or a "technology pundit", then you're far better off knowing a little bit about code, and a lot about money, business or journalism (respectively), than vice-versa. Coding is assembly line work -- which is why our society tried to outsource it to cheaper labor as soon as it became feasible to do so. We don't outsource the jobs that we value.
  - mechanical_fish 18y ago
    you're far better off knowing a little bit about code, and a lot about money, business or journalism, than vice-versa. Has anybody else actually read a biography of Bill Gates? [1] Bill Gates was a hacker before he knew anything about money or business. Wikipedia: After his [high school] administrators became aware of his programming abilities, Gates wrote the school's computer program to schedule students in classes. He modified the code so that he was placed in classes with mostly female students. He later stated that "it was hard to tear myself away from a machine at which I could so unambiguously demonstrate success." At age 17, Gates formed a venture with Allen, called Traf-O-Data, to make traffic counters based on the Intel 8008 processor... ...Gates and Allen did not have an Altair and had not written code for it... MITS president Ed Roberts agreed to meet them for a demo, and over the course of a few weeks they developed an Altair emulator that ran on a minicomputer, and then the BASIC interpreter. The demonstration, held at MITS's offices in Albuquerque, was a success... ...During Microsoft's early years, all employees had broad responsibility for the company's business. Gates oversaw the business details, but continued to write code as well. In the first five years, he personally reviewed every line of code the company shipped, and often rewrote parts of it as he saw fit. Gates is not an isolated example. Who founded Apple Computer? Hackers. (Yes, Steve Jobs may be more famous as a manager than as a hacker, but in the early days he built stuff, too.) Google: Founded by computer scientists. Yahoo, ditto. eBay: founded by a programmer. Jeff Bezos of Amazon: comp sci degree. You're better off knowing more journalism than programming? That's funny. Journalism is in flames, with senior reporters losing jobs by the score. One of the big reasons for this is that a lot of the money in newspaper publishing came from classified ads, and this money has been sucked away by a tiny company called Craigslist, founded by... a software engineer and comp sci major from my alma mater, Craig Newmark, a man with no background in journalism! You are correct, though: Most people would agree that these folks are no longer best described as programmers. Society agrees that "programmer" is a word for assembly-line workers with no demonstrated creative powers, just as "hacker" is a word for 13-year-old script kiddies with criminal intent. Which is why many programmers are smart enough to come up with a new job title and/or a broader skill set after a few years on the job. --- [1] Recommended: Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution. Somewhat dated, but the dated bits are some of the most fun.
nostrademons 18y ago
I know a couple - just had lunch with one of them a couple days ago. One does contracting + part time teaching at a college. Another just cashed out of a startup with enough money to never work again (after having previously gone public with a startup with enough money to never work again, but kept it in the company's stock, which tanked along with the company). Both of them have held managerial positions up to VP-Eng, yet decided it was not what they wanted to do and downgraded themselves to rank & file software engineers, albeit very good ones.
wheels 18y ago
You find them at big companies. I knew some great coders in their 40s and 50s at SAP. They mostly weren't the "I could rewrite this whole subsystem this weekend" sorts, more "I've solved variations on this problem since before you could write your name. If you'll shut up for a second I'll show you how it's done." I think there are plenty of places where coding wisdom is valued. They're just not the same places, generally, that thrive on geek bravado.
silentbicycle 18y ago
How many people born 50 years ago realistically had access to computers, though? It's considerably easier to learn programming when you can test things, and PCs weren't readily available until the late 70s. (Anyone in their 50s now would have already been in their 20s in 1978...) I was lucky enough to get a Commodore 64 when I was six or so, and taught myself simple programming stuff with library books. That's probably more or less true of several other people here. Imagine not even using a computer until after college, or learning by submitting code on punch cards, one batch per day.

potatolicious 18y ago

That's true for all industries. That 50 year-old banker is not the guy who's running around on the trading floor all day - he's probably a manager of some sort as well. Similarly, if you go into other engineering fields (electrical, mechanical, civil, etc) nearly all the 50 year-olds are managers also.

gaius 18y ago
But how does that scale? What's the ratio of managers to workers? For every 10 20-something new CS graduates, there's maybe 1 50-something manager. What happened to the other 9? This isn't a new problem, after all the Army needs only 1 Colonel for every 12-16 Lieutenants... The option to stay on as a junior officer until retirement doesn't exist, it's "up or out".

mechanical_fish 18y ago

One problem with discussions like this is that "programming" has an absurdly narrow definition. If you aren't actually spending the majority of your day typing code into emacs and fixing Javascript bugs, you are not a "programmer": you have "migrated into management". A senior law partner who never personally argues a case or drafts a contract, but does nothing but attend meetings all day and supervise younger partners and paralegals, is still "practicing law". The chiefs of large hospital departments are still "doctors" even when they don't pick up a stethoscope for days at a time. Late in Beethoven's career, when he was almost completely deaf, no longer able to perform or even to critique other performers, he was still a "musician". Whereas (e.g.) Joel Spolsky is now a "manager". Except when he's working on Arc, PG is more likely to be called a "manager" or an "angel investor" or a "venture capitalist" or a "technology pundit" or a "marketer" or a "writer" or a "teacher" or a "designer" or a "strategic consultant" or an "executive chef" (I think he does all of these things!) than a mere programmer. But just because these guys somehow don't fit our hyper-narrow definition of "programmer" doesn't necessarily mean that they had a problem with their software careers. It might just mean that there are many opportunities in software -- some quite rewarding or lucrative; many of which are best performed by someone who also knows how to program -- that aren't captured in the scope of the term programmer. Part of the reason why there seem to be so few "programmers" in their forties and fifties is that by that time many of them have dreamed up a better job title for themselves, like "senior member of the technical staff" or "chief of QA" or "Java architecture consultant" or even "co-founder" or "CEO". Spolsky loves to tell the story about his Bill Gates review: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/06/16.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/06/16.html At the time of that review, Bill Gates had not been called a programmer for years and years. He was a CEO and a co-founder, and was paid accordingly (and then some). But what was he doing when he reviewed a spec in gory, technical detail? He was programming. At a higher level than the average college intern, yes, but just because you're not touching a keyboard or dealing with individual calls to malloc doesn't mean you're not programming. Unless we decide that it does. But then we shouldn't be surprised to find that programming as a career is something that many people eventually grow out of. We've defined it that way -- as a term to describe an activity that doesn't scale well and that usually represents only a portion of a well-balanced intellectual or economic diet.

timr 18y ago
The conventional definition of "programmer" may be narrowly defined, but under no circumstances would I expand it to include the careers of Bill Gates, Joel Spolsky or your average "technology pundit". Those people may have written software at one point (and may still occasionally write code), but programming didn't make them famous. To define people like Steve Jobs as "programmers" is to so absurdly broaden the definition of the word, as to make it meaningless. After all, Steve Jobs once studied calligraphy (and even credited his studies for the development of the Macintosh!) -- should we label him a calligrapher? He makes music industry deals -- is he a musician? He buys rights to feature films -- is he a producer? He headed up Pixar -- is he an animator? I think there are good career opportunities in the technology industry, but for the most part, these careers don't involve programming. Your examples are telling: if you want to become a venture capitalist or a CEO or a "technology pundit", then you're far better off knowing a little bit about code, and a lot about money, business or journalism (respectively), than vice-versa. Coding is assembly line work -- which is why our society tried to outsource it to cheaper labor as soon as it became feasible to do so. We don't outsource the jobs that we value.
- mechanical_fish 18y ago
  you're far better off knowing a little bit about code, and a lot about money, business or journalism, than vice-versa. Has anybody else actually read a biography of Bill Gates? [1] Bill Gates was a hacker before he knew anything about money or business. Wikipedia: After his [high school] administrators became aware of his programming abilities, Gates wrote the school's computer program to schedule students in classes. He modified the code so that he was placed in classes with mostly female students. He later stated that "it was hard to tear myself away from a machine at which I could so unambiguously demonstrate success." At age 17, Gates formed a venture with Allen, called Traf-O-Data, to make traffic counters based on the Intel 8008 processor... ...Gates and Allen did not have an Altair and had not written code for it... MITS president Ed Roberts agreed to meet them for a demo, and over the course of a few weeks they developed an Altair emulator that ran on a minicomputer, and then the BASIC interpreter. The demonstration, held at MITS's offices in Albuquerque, was a success... ...During Microsoft's early years, all employees had broad responsibility for the company's business. Gates oversaw the business details, but continued to write code as well. In the first five years, he personally reviewed every line of code the company shipped, and often rewrote parts of it as he saw fit. Gates is not an isolated example. Who founded Apple Computer? Hackers. (Yes, Steve Jobs may be more famous as a manager than as a hacker, but in the early days he built stuff, too.) Google: Founded by computer scientists. Yahoo, ditto. eBay: founded by a programmer. Jeff Bezos of Amazon: comp sci degree. You're better off knowing more journalism than programming? That's funny. Journalism is in flames, with senior reporters losing jobs by the score. One of the big reasons for this is that a lot of the money in newspaper publishing came from classified ads, and this money has been sucked away by a tiny company called Craigslist, founded by... a software engineer and comp sci major from my alma mater, Craig Newmark, a man with no background in journalism! You are correct, though: Most people would agree that these folks are no longer best described as programmers. Society agrees that "programmer" is a word for assembly-line workers with no demonstrated creative powers, just as "hacker" is a word for 13-year-old script kiddies with criminal intent. Which is why many programmers are smart enough to come up with a new job title and/or a broader skill set after a few years on the job. --- [1] Recommended: Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution. Somewhat dated, but the dated bits are some of the most fun.

nostrademons 18y ago

I know a couple - just had lunch with one of them a couple days ago. One does contracting + part time teaching at a college. Another just cashed out of a startup with enough money to never work again (after having previously gone public with a startup with enough money to never work again, but kept it in the company's stock, which tanked along with the company). Both of them have held managerial positions up to VP-Eng, yet decided it was not what they wanted to do and downgraded themselves to rank & file software engineers, albeit very good ones.

wheels 18y ago

You find them at big companies. I knew some great coders in their 40s and 50s at SAP. They mostly weren't the "I could rewrite this whole subsystem this weekend" sorts, more "I've solved variations on this problem since before you could write your name. If you'll shut up for a second I'll show you how it's done." I think there are plenty of places where coding wisdom is valued. They're just not the same places, generally, that thrive on geek bravado.

silentbicycle 18y ago

How many people born 50 years ago realistically had access to computers, though? It's considerably easier to learn programming when you can test things, and PCs weren't readily available until the late 70s. (Anyone in their 50s now would have already been in their 20s in 1978...) I was lucky enough to get a Commodore 64 when I was six or so, and taught myself simple programming stuff with library books. That's probably more or less true of several other people here. Imagine not even using a computer until after college, or learning by submitting code on punch cards, one batch per day.