19 ms·

Repair and Remain (2022)

615 points by yarapavan 2y ago

Sloppy 2y ago
Wait a minute, is this a metaphor for our relationship with high tech? I want to breakup with my Pixel 6 because its camera lacks megapixels...
dgfitz 2y ago
> I can help you with that—demolition, framing, reworking the plumbing, moving some electrical, installing some mould-resistant drywall, maybe some nice tile for the floor and some classic glazed ceramic three-by-six subway tile for the tub surround. Should take a month or two, depending on what all’s involved. A month or two?! To re-do a bathroom? You say this like you're proud of it. I wouldn't. Accounting for drywall mudding and drying it should take a week, where most of the work happens in 2 days, on the weekend. Maybe you need 2 more days, the next weekend. Hell, take the other end of that weekend too. 1-2 month quotes is why I don't hire contractors, why I fix my own cars, and only use a personal friend for HVAC help.
- AyyEye 2y ago
  It took the people we hired to redo our kitchen nearly two years. I have no doubt that the bathroom would have taken similarly long. We had a similar experience with people hired to replace our windows taking two years before the lawyers got involved. Both of these were on the medium-high prices because we got burned hiring a couple of cheap folks in the past. Joke's on us. Things they both did: - Not measure things properly. How on earth a "professional" can be two-four inches off on several measurements I have no idea. - Not check the order before ordering it (and waiting months for it to be made and come in). - Not check the order before installing it. - Conveniently losing digital and physical copies of contracts and communications. Too bad for them we kept the signed originals. - When I mention that it's clearly not right (prior to install) we get told something along the lines of "that's how they come from the factory, we fix it after installation". After install we get told "of course we can't fix that, you can accept it or wait another 6-8 months for new parts." - A project manager that never actually supervises anything or shows up and has no problem lying to your face then saying something completely different in email afterwards. - Contractor blaming manufacturer while manufacturer blames contractor. You have to take a day off work every time they come to inspect things yet again. That's not even mentioning the constant babysitting that needs to be done (I am no contractor but maybe connect the drain to the sink before it gets turned on?) And all the little things that you end up doing yourself anyway because at this point it's just not worth it anymore like fixing all of the drywall they broke because I can do it in an afternoon and I am tired of talking to them and tired of seeing them and it will take you two weeks to come out anyway. And we are not being picky here. It's stuff that should have been immediately obvious. Like our kitchen cabinets not having windows (we cut the windows out after install, they said). Or being three different colors (we paint them afterwards, they said). After install I find that both of those are lies and they apparently ordered the wrong cabinets and put in some other customer's cabinets on half my kitchen (one of the cabinets had over a dozen shims to make it fit properly). Three different materials (fiberboard, plywood, and solid wood). I didn't even notice that one until after install. What about the window that was inches too big, and you didn't bother to check before ripping the old one out? Now I need to have plywood on my window for 8 months while you order a replacement. Good thing I'm not in an HOA or that would have got expensive quick. Maybe caulk the windows too? Just a suggestion but idk you're the professional you probably know better than the manufacturer. My partner, child, or myself getting cut every time we wipe the windows. I don't care if it's the manufacturers fault come send somebody to sand them down and clip off the sharp bits. It's going to take 8 months for the new ones to come in. We're tired of bleeding every time we clean. Lastly if you have explosive diahrrea fucking clean the toilet afterwards, especially if it splashes all the way up the lid. You are disgusting and you do shit work. And the worst part is I never even mentioned the diahrrea to them because in the grand scheme of things it was absolutely minor. Washing dishes in the winter outside with a hose fucking sucks. And washing dishes in the tiny bathroom sink sucks. Washing dishes in a tiny bathroom sink right after someone stunk it up really sucks. At least if you do it yourself, you can take a long time and do a shot job, and take solace knowing that if you hired someone it would have been just as bad but taken longer and been more expensive. /rant. Sorry. The last few years have been stressful. If you actually find someone that isn't bad hold on to them tight. Find an owner/operator who answers his own phone, does his own estimates, and does his own work.
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    I'm not going to understand why I was downvoted, not that I care much. You made my point for me, we are in complete agreement.
    - AyyEye 2y ago
      I had to reply with my experiences after seeing those downvotes.
      - dgfitz 2y ago
        Much obliged.
  - nuancebydefault 2y ago
    So sad to hear you had such a bad experience. I believe sometimes marriages are like that as well. I'm such a lucky person (knock on wood...) for not going through such serious problems in construction & love... (however getting to the point of obtaining 'true' love took a lot of time and disappointments).
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    Far too many home improvement "professionals" are just handymen or people who have worked as laborers for another contractor or are self-taught who hang out their own shingle. Sort of the same as software engineers. It would be nice if there were a "fizzbuzz" test we could give contractors before hiring. Hiring people who are unionized or who went through a union apprenticeship has been fairly reliable in my experience but union guys generally don't work on small household projects and they don't come cheap.
    - AyyEye 2y ago
      Well the professionals are licensed bonded and insured. I only found out afterwards that the lawyer who literally wrote the contractor law in Nevada works primarily for contractors so it doesn't really help you very much. At least with handymen when you can find a good one they are better than the best professionals.
- bluGill 2y ago
  If you are helping me do that work it will take more than 2 months - with kids and all they have to do I cannot do much work in a week. Monday I can work a couple hours, but only if my wife makes supper, Tuesday the girls have [mumble] so I have to cook, no time for anything else, then... Saturday might be free if the kids don't have an activity. If I quit my job I could get the bathroom done in a couple weeks alone, and less if I can get help for the tasks that really need two people. It likely will take longer but only because of permits and inspections. However I can't afford to retire (well I can, but not on the lifestyle I want - cabins in Montana are cheap but I want lights and indoor plumbing)
  - beaglesss 2y ago
    I built my house from nothing, not even utilities, by myself working full time and with kids. Sure kids activities have to go on a back burner, but sorry, they have food and shelter and after that their enjoyment has to take a backseat to the family building the house which benefits us far longer than the memories of the park or soccer practice. I respect choices of others but ultimately I see no reason to place childrens non-needs above critical family infrastructure.
    - digging 2y ago
      Please, don't take this as a personal judgment! I don't know you, I'm just judging what's written here. > kids activities have to go on a back burner ... I see no reason to place childrens non-needs above critical family infrastructure This comes across as pretty callous toward your children's development! Social interactions with family are needs for children, too. It sounds like you chose to go off and build a house unnecessarily and ignored the labor of raising your children to do it, which a lot of people would find pretty irresponsible. So as a rebuttal to someone else saying they can't make the time, because they have work and kids, I think it functions better as an argument against doing what you did. If buying an already-built home wasn't a realistic option for you, that would be very important context here.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
- BanazirGalbasi 2y ago
  For people new to the DIY skills it requires to do it right, 2 months seems reasonable. You have to learn the skills, and when you're applying them you stop constantly to check tutorials or look for advice. You take the entire project one step at a time and you do one part before even starting to research the next. A day of demo leaves you with an empty room with pipes sticking out of the walls. Maybe you've removed the drywall too so now you have outlet boxes and studs to work with. You take the rest of the day to finish the cleanup and triple-check your measurements for everything. Half your weekend has now been taken to demolish and clean up a core part of your home. The next day you do your framing, including buying your lumber. Again, if you're new to this, you're probably checking a tutorial or plans every 10 minutes as you go so you make sure you're doing it right. If you have time and you're confident, you can get the plumbing set up so that it's ready to drop the tub/shower and vanity in place next weekend. For someone with experience, this is an excruciatingly slow pace. For someone who is doing it for the first time and may never do it again, this is pretty reasonable. I would absolutely be proud of taking two months to do a bathroom if it means it's done right the first time. Going by the comments about contractors here, that's not a guarantee just because someone else can do it faster.
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    If you want to move the goalposts by introducing a lack of skill and materials, sure the argument falls apart. You are debating a different point entirely.
- hooverd 2y ago
  I don't think the actual amount of time working changes if it takes one week or two months lol.
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    It doesn’t, so why drag it out for 60+ days when you can do it in 3-5
nuancebydefault 2y ago
Whoever shared this article, thanks! So much truth. 'New' feels good at the moment of buying, but more often than not, "struggling & repairing" feels so much better afterwards. Oh the toilet doesn't flush well anymore or it keeps taking water... no problem, I know how to fix it since I did it before. Oh the kid' s sword is broken, let's fix it together! My fiancee seems unsatisfied with how I acted at the table yesterday... honey tell me what's wrong, we can talk it through.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- foobarian 2y ago
  > the kid' s sword is broken I have so many questions
  - HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
    Don't worry, her sister's fine.
  - zorpner 2y ago
    Long story short, the sword was forged during the First Age by the famed Dwarven-smith Telchar of Nogrod -- later wielded by Elendil and shattered in the Battle of Dagorlad. Once this kid's dad gets around to reforging it, it will be known as Andúril.
    - kridsdale1 2y ago
      The Return of the Kid
  - nuancebydefault 2y ago
    I guess you don't have kids? At first you buy those 2 dollar light plastic swords, which last a few hours. Then you buy a tougher, floppy, one that last a week. Then you make a wooden one for them, they knock something down with it. Time to repair the tougher one.
karaterobot 2y ago
The other day, I was thinking about how important a good handyman is for my mental health. I used to fix things myself, but spending all my free time doing home repair was withdrawing from the limited bank account of my personal sanity. Having the house broken open for months while I picked away at it after work and on weekends was bad for morale, too. And doing the work myself was sometimes dispiriting rather than empowering—If someone else makes a mistake, even if I'm paying them, I can for whatever reason tolerate that with less frustration than when I screw up myself. Accepting that I am lucky enough to have a surplus of money that I can exchange for time and serenity was a big step for me. My conclusion was that cultivating a relationship with a good handyman is of as much value for me as any other long term service relationship: doctor, therapist, waitress, barista, etc. So, even though I'm not married and not having relationship angst per se, this article makes sense to me through that reinterpretation.
- abakker 2y ago
  As someone who does more than the average person’s share of DIY, I agree for another reason: when I do want to do a project, I want to do the kind of project that pleases me. I’m experienced enough to know I hate drywall work, and I don’t really want to do plumbing on drains or concrete, so, I always have pros do that. But, I’m pretty happy to hack through some trim carpentry and electrical any day.
  - Domenic_S 2y ago
    I feel seen. I can't stand drywall work - although I'll do a patch'n'texture that's too small to hire out if i absolutely have to. The folks who do drywall for a living are magicians that can knock out the job 5x faster than me, and 20x better. I'll pay all day. Electrical on the other hand I find to be a blast. It's more a hobby than a chore, although there are some things I won't touch, like running conduit for lv or installing a sizable solar system. The pros are just so good at it. Cars too - I'll change every fluid, do brake jobs, install short shift kits, dashcams, even got a windows VM running so I could use old software to read OBD-I codes on my old car. But timing or a top-end rebuild.. I leave that to the pros. I think there's something to be said for doing like 80% of the things yourself even when you can afford more. It's so gratifying to do even a simple job and when it's done, it's done. It's so unlike most of our day-to-day that's full of multi-month efforts that depend on other people.
velcrovan 2y ago
I am a lot like this guy. I would say "repair and remain" is my preferred ethos as well. But the house/marriage comparison is an oversimplification that elides a lot of very common situations where leaving a marriage is justified. If anything about your house is broken, you can (in principle) just fix it. You don't need the house to agree or cooperate. Even if the house is burned out or full of black mold, remediation is always an option, subject only to the resources you can bring to bear. I dunno. It's tiresome to put qualifiers and disclaimers on everything. MAYBE in an article by a white Anglican Canadian small-business owner (such as myself except for the Anglican part), it just goes without saying that if your partner is a threat to you or your children's safety, or if there is a huge power imbalance at play, or if your partner simply refuses to join you in the work of repair, leaving is often justified. But then again, as someone who grew up sheltered in a similar community and naively assuming that divorce was stupid and selfish 100% of the time, I tend to think those qualifiers would do more good than harm.
- floren 2y ago
  It felt pretty clear in the article that he was talking about people who were frustrated, tired, perhaps depressed, not in duress or under threat of harm. Hedging every exception makes the article weaker; I think you can write an article about how going for a walk every day is healthy without having to add a paragraph about how obviously this won't work for paraplegics.
  - asangha 2y ago
    This is great point that demonstrates how to read ethically.
  - slothtrop 2y ago
    It's pretty clear he'd default to that advice for just about everyone who wasn't in physical danger or being abused in some way.
- HPsquared 2y ago
  Indeed, it's an important principle that you cannot change another person's mind or make them act a certain way. All you can do is influence and hope for the best.
sophyphreak 2y ago
Sometimes I'm like, "Why do I still read Hacker News?" And then I read something like this, and I'm like, "This is why!"
- efields 2y ago
  Ditto.
- itpragmatik 2y ago
  +1
rfolks92 2y ago
Its always the next rewrite of the codebase that is the final one, isn't it?
- bluGill 2y ago
  So long as I'm around and have a voice the last was the final one. On hindsight we could have refactored the existing code in place for similar costs - and have results to show much quicker, while a few rarely used features that we decided not to rewrite would still be working (with the old ugly UI).
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  In hindsight I should've made some performance improvements and left after a year, but they hired me to rewrite their 60K LOC configuration webapp in a technology stack of my own choosing so I did. After two and a half years I was at 20% or so and there was no outlook on them actually hiring the full team that it needed like I indicated early on.
unbalancedevh 2y ago
Zen and the Art of Life Maintenance
- nkg 2y ago
  I see what you did there ;) One idea from the book that stuck with me is that we are too often in a rush to get this or that done, so we can move on with our life. Instead, we can take the time to do it the right way and find some kind of happiness in the process.
jbaczuk 2y ago
Related: At the beginning of my career I jumped around from startup to startup doing hardware, firmware, mobile, web dev, blockchain, Alexa/Google Home, and then started consulting. Then my client pool dried up during the pandemic. When I started at my current job 3 years ago, I decided I will stay put for a while and resist the urge to look for something "better". I wanted to take on more responsibility and learn what it is like to build software and maintain it for years to come. There are some valuable lessons I learned from doing that. The world runs on the backbone of people who are willing to stay put.
- __loam 2y ago
  Unfortunately sometimes the best way to advance, salarywise or otherwise, is to leave. The industry should do a better job at retention.
  - jacobsenscott 2y ago
    In my 26 years of experience I can say that's the only way to advance in this industry. Programmers are just cogs in the machine no matter their skill level. A lesson I wish I learned much earlier. I grew up with a mid-western "loyalty" mindset, and it cost me many years of fair pay.
- munificent 2y ago
  At the top of every source file I work on is a copyright. I maintain a program where some of those files say copyright 2014, and I created those files the first time. It's a weird feeling sitting in a single codebase that long. Satisfying but also I can't help but wonder if there are other things I could have been doing instead.
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    It's never too late to change tracks; I worked with a guy who spent 20 years doing Java, he shifted to consultancy building web applications. I also worked with a guy who spent 25 years of his career as a manager at a bank, but who said fuck it and went self-employed writing CSS and advocating for accessibility. It's never too late for a change of career if you want it.
oneepic 2y ago
"It's that simple, and that hard." --Richard Hamming (but, he was talking about doing science)
kraftman 2y ago
I think the key difference in this analogy that needs to be acknowleded is that in a house repair, the owner of the house needs to want the repairs, and agree to pay for them. You can decided to stay in a relationship and try and fix it but unless the other person is also willing to try and fix it too, you're not going to get anywhere.
- bluGill 2y ago
  While true, most often both have some want and just don't see how to fix things up. If you can figure out how to fix things up then that is the best thing to do. While I'm a big believer in marriage for life, I do recognize that sometimes past you messed up and leaving is the best option. 75% (maybe more) of my message isn't about fixing up the current relationship, but carefully choosing who you get into one with in the first place.
  - slothtrop 2y ago
    If you're trying to fix it in good faith, then marriage counseling and the like is already going to be in the conversation. Still, you can lead a horse to water but can't make them drink. Maybe most couples can reach a compromise, but the blank-slate attitude in the article is for the birds. It's informed by religious conviction. The sanctity of marriage is what's at stake and one's own happiness is secondary.
    - Thorrez 2y ago
      >The sanctity of marriage is what's at stake and one's own happiness is secondary. Let's not forget about the happiness of one's spouse and kids.
      - slothtrop 2y ago
        You can and should keep being a parent after divorce. Staying in itself is not necessarily going to "make" a spouse happy, if it did splitting up would less often be a consideration, but notwithstanding they have their own responsibility to see to it and they can be happy after marriage.
nice_byte 2y ago
You only have about 70 years on this earth, out of which only about 50 are healthy and independent. Don't waste them being miserable. Don't waste your partner's time either.
- smeej 2y ago
  Misery is (usually) a choice. Yes, there are situations of exploitation and abuse, and that's why I put in the caveat, but even if you imagine situations that seem terrible from where you're sitting now, most of them have examples where someone is living them and is still joyful.
adolph 2y ago
now the drain was rusted and when I went to loosen the nut, the steel sink cracked and split, but it was an old sink so I couldn’t find a matching one to replace it with, so that meant the old vanity had to go too, but that left an odd footprint on the curled, old linoleum, so then the flooring had to go too, and, well, if you’re going that far, you might as well put in a new tub. This is a lot like those cascades of technical debt that must be overcome to fix some otherwise minor thing.
- 4WIW 2y ago
  A.k.a Yak Shaving [1] [1] https://seths.blog/2005/03/dont_shave_that/ https://seths.blog/2005/03/dont_shave_that/
timfsu 2y ago
Loved this article. My two "superpowers" as a dad - superglue and new batteries. Sometimes I get to bring out the soldering iron - my wife will bring things home from Buy Nothing so I can fix it, the kids play with it for a day, and then we let it go again, but this time in working condition :)
xivzgrev 2y ago
100%. As I've gotten older, the things that have given me the most satisfaction are those that take place over a long time. It's kind of like planting trees - it can take a while to see the fruit, but then it keeps on giving with some ongoing maintenance. In my life, my significant other, my career, and financials are those areas I heavily invested early on, and a decade on they are quite strong. I still struggle, but when I take a step back, I can see these are very good and feel grateful. There were many times I have been tempted to leave. But I kept an eye on the big picture, what would leaving really change for me? And the answer was not much, I am still me (as noted in the article). On the other hand, I have under invested in myself (health, hobbies, spirituality) and friends. My main struggle is working to shift my focus away from maximizing the former, and begin balancing more of the latter. It's an ongoing journey :)
- nxobject 2y ago
  I’d like to add something else to that list - the connectedness you feel in a community: the neighbors you grab beer with and help out in a pinch; the cashiers you get to know over time; the people at the after hours sports team or hobbyist community you get to know. Move to a different city (or even across town!) and that takes time to rebuild. It’s why I nearly considered an academic career and decided against it - having to constantly move for grad school, then post doc positions, onwards and onwards regularly never appealed to me.
prideout 2y ago
The "Comment" magazine looks nice, nowadays I don't see many appealing printed magazines. I wonder if there are print publications out there on technical subjects that interest me.
- jamesbvaughan 2y ago
  Stripe's Increment Magazine was pretty cool, but it seems like they stopped publishing new editions in 2021: https://store.increment.com/ https://store.increment.com/ On the slightly less technical side, I've been enjoying Asterisk Mag: https://asteriskmag.com/ https://asteriskmag.com/
  - prideout 2y ago
    Wow Asterisk looks exactly like what I'm interested in!
- prideout 2y ago
  Today I realized "MIT Technology Review" is another compelling print publication.
dominicq 2y ago
For the most part, "repair and remain" is very good advice, but there's a small but significant percentage where it's the opposite of what you should do. Sometimes you live in a building that's ready for teardown and you should leave (metaphorically and literally).
- adamtaylor_13 2y ago
  Yeah, but this is good advice precisely because most people don't do it and it's not intuitive.
- drnewman 2y ago
  True, but I think the point of the article is that, in modern life, we tend to err strongly in the other direction.
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    The grass is greener on the other side, so to speak, but instead of going to the other side you can also learn lawn care and fix your own.
    - complete_wolve 2y ago
      Great metaphor
- danw1979 2y ago
  I know people who bailed on marriages early and I think, yes, this article has some good advice, but it’s also very important to fail fast where failure is inevitable. If this inevitable failure only becomes apparent after you’ve had kids but you’re sure they will grow up only having seen bitterness in their parent’s relationship, then bailing out is still valid advice.
- justanotherjoe 2y ago
  Obviously the writer is biased towards people who are regular church goers with vices not shameful enough and with a sense of community that they confided to a lay minister. Obviously that selects for relationships which can still be 'saved' with a little repairing. Not to be a downer but while the idea is great, no one knows how things will turn out, as the writer himself conceded.
Zelphyr 2y ago
Several people here are saying something like "Life is too short to be miserable. Get out and be happy." I tried that. In the span of a month we had a newborn, I lost my job, the market went into the worst recession since the Great Depression. Later I lost another job and we had to short-sell our house. We got a divorce and it wasn't because of any of those things (though, they did influence it). It was because my default was to run away from my problems. Funny thing; the divorce didn't eliminate the stress. It just moved it around in my body and mind and led to near constant anger, anxiety, and panic spasms. I went to see a therapist who taught me to be present with what I'm feeling. (He practiced Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, for anyone interested) I did that in earnest and one day about six months after starting therapy I realized what a mistake I had made in giving up on my marriage. I reached out and we were able to repair the relationship and we've been back together for over ten years now, thankfully. We're closer than ever. I don't recommend that particular method of repairing a relationship, by the way. ;) It hasn't always been easy since we got back together but, it has been worth it. We were talking the other day--we talk a lot, important!--and we both agreed that at the start of our relationship, our feelings for each other were very intense. Now that we've been together for over twenty years (with a short "We were on a break!" in the middle) we find that the intensity of our love for each other isn't the same but it is so much deeper than it was at the start and only grows more so the more we're together. We realized that you can only get that if you stay and work on the relationship.
- philip1209 2y ago
  My understanding is that Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) is considered a "fourth wave" psychotherapy, whereas Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) is considered more "third wave". Many therapists still focus on CBT, so those that are interested in ACT will have to seek out practitioners of it. The classic consumer-facing book about CBT is "Feeling Good", and a good consumer-facing book about ACT is "The Happiness Trap." I share this because your comment may resonate with people, and I think it's important to understand that ACT is quite different than the more-common CBT.
  - drnewman 2y ago
    Thank you for clarifying that.
philip1209 2y ago
I enjoyed this article. As a bit of a contrast, I also recommend this article I came across yesterday, which criticizes the American idea of building a home as an isolated utopia: "The Suburban Lifestyle Dream" https://www.ryanpuzycki.com/p/the-suburban-lifestyle-dream https://www.ryanpuzycki.com/p/the-suburban-lifestyle-dream > Even as the West has built some of the world’s most extraordinary cities, this Puritanical, anti-urban throughline runs across our culture. The desire to return to an Edenic state is a central theme in the story of how the “Suburban Lifestyle Dream” first entered our collective conscience. That dream has powered the unique pattern of suburbanization that typifies much of modern America—one marked by “stratified and segregated social geography” and “relatively low density.”
roughly 2y ago
As the saying goes, "Wherever you go, there you are."
zhynn 2y ago
I love the feeling I get when I recycle or repurpose something that would have been trash into something useful. Especially if it becomes even more beautiful from its past patina. This can go too far and put you in a cycle of spending all of your time tending jank (and lowing your quality bar). It's a fine edge to walk. but that pleasure hit that most people get from buying stuff, it doesn't work for me. Buying new things often makes me feel guilty. Re-using or repurposing something though... for me it's one of the best highs there is.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
sneak 2y ago
> Same with pastoring: no point thinking you need a brand-new life, but, well, let’s not kid around—you could use some serious updates and upgrades yourself. This is the core presumption of the arrogance of the christian faith. The very concept that mankind is inherently flawed, always in need of cosmic repair from some imaginary being. If that isn’t the epitome of a toxic and pathological worldview, I don’t know what is. Literally everything good in this life was conceived of and created by mankind.
- gowld 2y ago
  Yes, it is toxic and pathalogical to assume you are perfect and hurl unsubsantiated allegations. So, please stop.
lr4444lr 2y ago
I cannot overrecommend marriage counseling. (And if you have kids, make sure the counselor has their own kids. It matters a lot.) We tend to devise all manner of distortions about how our spouse really feels, and fear saying things that need to be said. It literally saved my marriage. The reason it has a poor track record IMHO is what this guy is saying about the nail clipper: don't let the problems fester. Oncologists can only save people who are diligent about doing their cancer screenings to catch problems early.
- b3kart 2y ago
  > make sure the counselor has their own kids I sense a hint of prejudice, the “you’ll understand once you have kids” trope. Surely counsellors training is more important than their personal situation?
  - lr4444lr 2y ago
    Both matter, IME. The necessary empathy to make it work can be very hard to engender when the counselor can only understand the dynamics of what children do to a marriage on a detached, observational level.
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    Yes, but there's a difference between learning the theory and experiencing the practice. When you see a counsellor you need to trust them and know that they understand; if they say "I understand what it's like to have a child like that because I read about it in a book" you will never be able to take them seriously.
    - b3kart 2y ago
      It depends on the type of therapy, I suppose, but I am not sure it’s reasonable to expect the therapist to have experienced all of the circumstances/problems you’re coming to them with. In my view, a good therapist should have the skills to ask the right _questions_, not give you the _answers_. They should help _you_ reflect and problem-solve.
sneak 2y ago
> But a brand-new house won’t fix your troubles any more than a fresh start with a fascinating new somebody will. With full-grown adults (ie 27-28+), there is rarely such a thing as a fixer-upper. If you’re unhappy with your fully adult partner, cut and run. Life is short and opportunity cost is real. You are doing them and yourself no favors.
- throw4023042q0 2y ago
  I don't think it's necessarily so black and white. Both parties fell for something, if that's still there, maybe it can be found again. Maybe. If not, sure I agree with you. I don't think it's advisable to stay in an absolutely unhappy AND unfixable relationship. But I do think it's worth trying to fight for it. I'm in a 15 year long relationship, and it's not been smooth sailing. Some experiences require knowing each other very deeply. This is a very powerful experience IMO.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  That's a bit short-sighted; test whether they are open to change first. A lot of people in this thread are older people who went through therapy and life changing events (that is, change) after ten years, and saved relationships and the like. That said, "I can fix him/her" isn't a good way to enter a relationship.
crabmusket 2y ago
This reminds me, syntactically and conceptually, of the philosophy of parkour I was introduced to when I began practising it during uni. "Être et durer" - to be and to endure. Train for the future, sustainably, without ruining your body. And, "être fort pour être utile" - be strong to be useful. Parkour (as opposed to freerunning) emphasizes the goal, movement, reaching or escaping.
motohagiography 2y ago
Beautiful view. When you have faith, really, you have everything. all that's left are liabilities when you don't. It's the heavy lift. such sparse and honest writing, I often forget pastors are usually really good at that.
- interludead 2y ago
  Honest communication for me is the key for development in any field of life
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    The problem / resistance there is denial, that is, for example your relationship would end (possibly badly) if you actually were honest.
    - motohagiography 2y ago
      become honest with yourself and recognize your responsibility for your own life and the people you've brought into it, and then do (don't say) what someone who was responsible for them would do, come what may.
chabes 2y ago
Film cameras are not obsolete
interludead 2y ago
You can't run from problems; you need to solve them. Very good thoughts
TedHerman 2y ago
Maintenance. I always wondered why it wasn't ripe for disruption. Perhaps the right founders never came along with the right approach?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
4WIW 2y ago
DIY is good if this is part of your life plan. Otherwise it's a distraction. We live in civilization for a reason; different people specialize in different tasks so that overall, we all can enjoy our lives more. In other words, except for simple little things, don't make me fix my bathroom: there are people who do this faster and better than me, but NO ONE is going to fix bugs in my software for me. To each his own.

615 points by yarapavan 2y ago

Wait a minute, is this a metaphor for our relationship with high tech? I want to breakup with my Pixel 6 because its camera lacks megapixels...

dgfitz 2y ago

> I can help you with that—demolition, framing, reworking the plumbing, moving some electrical, installing some mould-resistant drywall, maybe some nice tile for the floor and some classic glazed ceramic three-by-six subway tile for the tub surround. Should take a month or two, depending on what all’s involved. A month or two?! To re-do a bathroom? You say this like you're proud of it. I wouldn't. Accounting for drywall mudding and drying it should take a week, where most of the work happens in 2 days, on the weekend. Maybe you need 2 more days, the next weekend. Hell, take the other end of that weekend too. 1-2 month quotes is why I don't hire contractors, why I fix my own cars, and only use a personal friend for HVAC help.

AyyEye 2y ago
It took the people we hired to redo our kitchen nearly two years. I have no doubt that the bathroom would have taken similarly long. We had a similar experience with people hired to replace our windows taking two years before the lawyers got involved. Both of these were on the medium-high prices because we got burned hiring a couple of cheap folks in the past. Joke's on us. Things they both did: - Not measure things properly. How on earth a "professional" can be two-four inches off on several measurements I have no idea. - Not check the order before ordering it (and waiting months for it to be made and come in). - Not check the order before installing it. - Conveniently losing digital and physical copies of contracts and communications. Too bad for them we kept the signed originals. - When I mention that it's clearly not right (prior to install) we get told something along the lines of "that's how they come from the factory, we fix it after installation". After install we get told "of course we can't fix that, you can accept it or wait another 6-8 months for new parts." - A project manager that never actually supervises anything or shows up and has no problem lying to your face then saying something completely different in email afterwards. - Contractor blaming manufacturer while manufacturer blames contractor. You have to take a day off work every time they come to inspect things yet again. That's not even mentioning the constant babysitting that needs to be done (I am no contractor but maybe connect the drain to the sink before it gets turned on?) And all the little things that you end up doing yourself anyway because at this point it's just not worth it anymore like fixing all of the drywall they broke because I can do it in an afternoon and I am tired of talking to them and tired of seeing them and it will take you two weeks to come out anyway. And we are not being picky here. It's stuff that should have been immediately obvious. Like our kitchen cabinets not having windows (we cut the windows out after install, they said). Or being three different colors (we paint them afterwards, they said). After install I find that both of those are lies and they apparently ordered the wrong cabinets and put in some other customer's cabinets on half my kitchen (one of the cabinets had over a dozen shims to make it fit properly). Three different materials (fiberboard, plywood, and solid wood). I didn't even notice that one until after install. What about the window that was inches too big, and you didn't bother to check before ripping the old one out? Now I need to have plywood on my window for 8 months while you order a replacement. Good thing I'm not in an HOA or that would have got expensive quick. Maybe caulk the windows too? Just a suggestion but idk you're the professional you probably know better than the manufacturer. My partner, child, or myself getting cut every time we wipe the windows. I don't care if it's the manufacturers fault come send somebody to sand them down and clip off the sharp bits. It's going to take 8 months for the new ones to come in. We're tired of bleeding every time we clean. Lastly if you have explosive diahrrea fucking clean the toilet afterwards, especially if it splashes all the way up the lid. You are disgusting and you do shit work. And the worst part is I never even mentioned the diahrrea to them because in the grand scheme of things it was absolutely minor. Washing dishes in the winter outside with a hose fucking sucks. And washing dishes in the tiny bathroom sink sucks. Washing dishes in a tiny bathroom sink right after someone stunk it up really sucks. At least if you do it yourself, you can take a long time and do a shot job, and take solace knowing that if you hired someone it would have been just as bad but taken longer and been more expensive. /rant. Sorry. The last few years have been stressful. If you actually find someone that isn't bad hold on to them tight. Find an owner/operator who answers his own phone, does his own estimates, and does his own work.
- dgfitz 2y ago
  I'm not going to understand why I was downvoted, not that I care much. You made my point for me, we are in complete agreement.
  - AyyEye 2y ago
    I had to reply with my experiences after seeing those downvotes.
    - dgfitz 2y ago
      Much obliged.
- nuancebydefault 2y ago
  So sad to hear you had such a bad experience. I believe sometimes marriages are like that as well. I'm such a lucky person (knock on wood...) for not going through such serious problems in construction & love... (however getting to the point of obtaining 'true' love took a lot of time and disappointments).
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  Far too many home improvement "professionals" are just handymen or people who have worked as laborers for another contractor or are self-taught who hang out their own shingle. Sort of the same as software engineers. It would be nice if there were a "fizzbuzz" test we could give contractors before hiring. Hiring people who are unionized or who went through a union apprenticeship has been fairly reliable in my experience but union guys generally don't work on small household projects and they don't come cheap.
  - AyyEye 2y ago
    Well the professionals are licensed bonded and insured. I only found out afterwards that the lawyer who literally wrote the contractor law in Nevada works primarily for contractors so it doesn't really help you very much. At least with handymen when you can find a good one they are better than the best professionals.
bluGill 2y ago
If you are helping me do that work it will take more than 2 months - with kids and all they have to do I cannot do much work in a week. Monday I can work a couple hours, but only if my wife makes supper, Tuesday the girls have [mumble] so I have to cook, no time for anything else, then... Saturday might be free if the kids don't have an activity. If I quit my job I could get the bathroom done in a couple weeks alone, and less if I can get help for the tasks that really need two people. It likely will take longer but only because of permits and inspections. However I can't afford to retire (well I can, but not on the lifestyle I want - cabins in Montana are cheap but I want lights and indoor plumbing)
- beaglesss 2y ago
  I built my house from nothing, not even utilities, by myself working full time and with kids. Sure kids activities have to go on a back burner, but sorry, they have food and shelter and after that their enjoyment has to take a backseat to the family building the house which benefits us far longer than the memories of the park or soccer practice. I respect choices of others but ultimately I see no reason to place childrens non-needs above critical family infrastructure.
  - digging 2y ago
    Please, don't take this as a personal judgment! I don't know you, I'm just judging what's written here. > kids activities have to go on a back burner ... I see no reason to place childrens non-needs above critical family infrastructure This comes across as pretty callous toward your children's development! Social interactions with family are needs for children, too. It sounds like you chose to go off and build a house unnecessarily and ignored the labor of raising your children to do it, which a lot of people would find pretty irresponsible. So as a rebuttal to someone else saying they can't make the time, because they have work and kids, I think it functions better as an argument against doing what you did. If buying an already-built home wasn't a realistic option for you, that would be very important context here.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
BanazirGalbasi 2y ago
For people new to the DIY skills it requires to do it right, 2 months seems reasonable. You have to learn the skills, and when you're applying them you stop constantly to check tutorials or look for advice. You take the entire project one step at a time and you do one part before even starting to research the next. A day of demo leaves you with an empty room with pipes sticking out of the walls. Maybe you've removed the drywall too so now you have outlet boxes and studs to work with. You take the rest of the day to finish the cleanup and triple-check your measurements for everything. Half your weekend has now been taken to demolish and clean up a core part of your home. The next day you do your framing, including buying your lumber. Again, if you're new to this, you're probably checking a tutorial or plans every 10 minutes as you go so you make sure you're doing it right. If you have time and you're confident, you can get the plumbing set up so that it's ready to drop the tub/shower and vanity in place next weekend. For someone with experience, this is an excruciatingly slow pace. For someone who is doing it for the first time and may never do it again, this is pretty reasonable. I would absolutely be proud of taking two months to do a bathroom if it means it's done right the first time. Going by the comments about contractors here, that's not a guarantee just because someone else can do it faster.
- dgfitz 2y ago
  If you want to move the goalposts by introducing a lack of skill and materials, sure the argument falls apart. You are debating a different point entirely.
hooverd 2y ago
I don't think the actual amount of time working changes if it takes one week or two months lol.
- dgfitz 2y ago
  It doesn’t, so why drag it out for 60+ days when you can do it in 3-5

nuancebydefault 2y ago

Whoever shared this article, thanks! So much truth. 'New' feels good at the moment of buying, but more often than not, "struggling & repairing" feels so much better afterwards. Oh the toilet doesn't flush well anymore or it keeps taking water... no problem, I know how to fix it since I did it before. Oh the kid' s sword is broken, let's fix it together! My fiancee seems unsatisfied with how I acted at the table yesterday... honey tell me what's wrong, we can talk it through.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
foobarian 2y ago
> the kid' s sword is broken I have so many questions
- HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
  Don't worry, her sister's fine.
- zorpner 2y ago
  Long story short, the sword was forged during the First Age by the famed Dwarven-smith Telchar of Nogrod -- later wielded by Elendil and shattered in the Battle of Dagorlad. Once this kid's dad gets around to reforging it, it will be known as Andúril.
  - kridsdale1 2y ago
    The Return of the Kid
- nuancebydefault 2y ago
  I guess you don't have kids? At first you buy those 2 dollar light plastic swords, which last a few hours. Then you buy a tougher, floppy, one that last a week. Then you make a wooden one for them, they knock something down with it. Time to repair the tougher one.

karaterobot 2y ago

The other day, I was thinking about how important a good handyman is for my mental health. I used to fix things myself, but spending all my free time doing home repair was withdrawing from the limited bank account of my personal sanity. Having the house broken open for months while I picked away at it after work and on weekends was bad for morale, too. And doing the work myself was sometimes dispiriting rather than empowering—If someone else makes a mistake, even if I'm paying them, I can for whatever reason tolerate that with less frustration than when I screw up myself. Accepting that I am lucky enough to have a surplus of money that I can exchange for time and serenity was a big step for me. My conclusion was that cultivating a relationship with a good handyman is of as much value for me as any other long term service relationship: doctor, therapist, waitress, barista, etc. So, even though I'm not married and not having relationship angst per se, this article makes sense to me through that reinterpretation.

abakker 2y ago
As someone who does more than the average person’s share of DIY, I agree for another reason: when I do want to do a project, I want to do the kind of project that pleases me. I’m experienced enough to know I hate drywall work, and I don’t really want to do plumbing on drains or concrete, so, I always have pros do that. But, I’m pretty happy to hack through some trim carpentry and electrical any day.
- Domenic_S 2y ago
  I feel seen. I can't stand drywall work - although I'll do a patch'n'texture that's too small to hire out if i absolutely have to. The folks who do drywall for a living are magicians that can knock out the job 5x faster than me, and 20x better. I'll pay all day. Electrical on the other hand I find to be a blast. It's more a hobby than a chore, although there are some things I won't touch, like running conduit for lv or installing a sizable solar system. The pros are just so good at it. Cars too - I'll change every fluid, do brake jobs, install short shift kits, dashcams, even got a windows VM running so I could use old software to read OBD-I codes on my old car. But timing or a top-end rebuild.. I leave that to the pros. I think there's something to be said for doing like 80% of the things yourself even when you can afford more. It's so gratifying to do even a simple job and when it's done, it's done. It's so unlike most of our day-to-day that's full of multi-month efforts that depend on other people.

velcrovan 2y ago

I am a lot like this guy. I would say "repair and remain" is my preferred ethos as well. But the house/marriage comparison is an oversimplification that elides a lot of very common situations where leaving a marriage is justified. If anything about your house is broken, you can (in principle) just fix it. You don't need the house to agree or cooperate. Even if the house is burned out or full of black mold, remediation is always an option, subject only to the resources you can bring to bear. I dunno. It's tiresome to put qualifiers and disclaimers on everything. MAYBE in an article by a white Anglican Canadian small-business owner (such as myself except for the Anglican part), it just goes without saying that if your partner is a threat to you or your children's safety, or if there is a huge power imbalance at play, or if your partner simply refuses to join you in the work of repair, leaving is often justified. But then again, as someone who grew up sheltered in a similar community and naively assuming that divorce was stupid and selfish 100% of the time, I tend to think those qualifiers would do more good than harm.

floren 2y ago
It felt pretty clear in the article that he was talking about people who were frustrated, tired, perhaps depressed, not in duress or under threat of harm. Hedging every exception makes the article weaker; I think you can write an article about how going for a walk every day is healthy without having to add a paragraph about how obviously this won't work for paraplegics.
- asangha 2y ago
  This is great point that demonstrates how to read ethically.
- slothtrop 2y ago
  It's pretty clear he'd default to that advice for just about everyone who wasn't in physical danger or being abused in some way.
HPsquared 2y ago
Indeed, it's an important principle that you cannot change another person's mind or make them act a certain way. All you can do is influence and hope for the best.

sophyphreak 2y ago

Sometimes I'm like, "Why do I still read Hacker News?" And then I read something like this, and I'm like, "This is why!"

efields 2y ago
Ditto.
itpragmatik 2y ago
+1

rfolks92 2y ago

Its always the next rewrite of the codebase that is the final one, isn't it?

bluGill 2y ago
So long as I'm around and have a voice the last was the final one. On hindsight we could have refactored the existing code in place for similar costs - and have results to show much quicker, while a few rarely used features that we decided not to rewrite would still be working (with the old ugly UI).
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
In hindsight I should've made some performance improvements and left after a year, but they hired me to rewrite their 60K LOC configuration webapp in a technology stack of my own choosing so I did. After two and a half years I was at 20% or so and there was no outlook on them actually hiring the full team that it needed like I indicated early on.

unbalancedevh 2y ago

Zen and the Art of Life Maintenance

nkg 2y ago
I see what you did there ;) One idea from the book that stuck with me is that we are too often in a rush to get this or that done, so we can move on with our life. Instead, we can take the time to do it the right way and find some kind of happiness in the process.

jbaczuk 2y ago

Related: At the beginning of my career I jumped around from startup to startup doing hardware, firmware, mobile, web dev, blockchain, Alexa/Google Home, and then started consulting. Then my client pool dried up during the pandemic. When I started at my current job 3 years ago, I decided I will stay put for a while and resist the urge to look for something "better". I wanted to take on more responsibility and learn what it is like to build software and maintain it for years to come. There are some valuable lessons I learned from doing that. The world runs on the backbone of people who are willing to stay put.

__loam 2y ago
Unfortunately sometimes the best way to advance, salarywise or otherwise, is to leave. The industry should do a better job at retention.
- jacobsenscott 2y ago
  In my 26 years of experience I can say that's the only way to advance in this industry. Programmers are just cogs in the machine no matter their skill level. A lesson I wish I learned much earlier. I grew up with a mid-western "loyalty" mindset, and it cost me many years of fair pay.
munificent 2y ago
At the top of every source file I work on is a copyright. I maintain a program where some of those files say copyright 2014, and I created those files the first time. It's a weird feeling sitting in a single codebase that long. Satisfying but also I can't help but wonder if there are other things I could have been doing instead.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  It's never too late to change tracks; I worked with a guy who spent 20 years doing Java, he shifted to consultancy building web applications. I also worked with a guy who spent 25 years of his career as a manager at a bank, but who said fuck it and went self-employed writing CSS and advocating for accessibility. It's never too late for a change of career if you want it.

oneepic 2y ago

"It's that simple, and that hard." --Richard Hamming (but, he was talking about doing science)

kraftman 2y ago

I think the key difference in this analogy that needs to be acknowleded is that in a house repair, the owner of the house needs to want the repairs, and agree to pay for them. You can decided to stay in a relationship and try and fix it but unless the other person is also willing to try and fix it too, you're not going to get anywhere.

bluGill 2y ago
While true, most often both have some want and just don't see how to fix things up. If you can figure out how to fix things up then that is the best thing to do. While I'm a big believer in marriage for life, I do recognize that sometimes past you messed up and leaving is the best option. 75% (maybe more) of my message isn't about fixing up the current relationship, but carefully choosing who you get into one with in the first place.
- slothtrop 2y ago
  If you're trying to fix it in good faith, then marriage counseling and the like is already going to be in the conversation. Still, you can lead a horse to water but can't make them drink. Maybe most couples can reach a compromise, but the blank-slate attitude in the article is for the birds. It's informed by religious conviction. The sanctity of marriage is what's at stake and one's own happiness is secondary.
  - Thorrez 2y ago
    >The sanctity of marriage is what's at stake and one's own happiness is secondary. Let's not forget about the happiness of one's spouse and kids.
    - slothtrop 2y ago
      You can and should keep being a parent after divorce. Staying in itself is not necessarily going to "make" a spouse happy, if it did splitting up would less often be a consideration, but notwithstanding they have their own responsibility to see to it and they can be happy after marriage.

nice_byte 2y ago

You only have about 70 years on this earth, out of which only about 50 are healthy and independent. Don't waste them being miserable. Don't waste your partner's time either.

smeej 2y ago
Misery is (usually) a choice. Yes, there are situations of exploitation and abuse, and that's why I put in the caveat, but even if you imagine situations that seem terrible from where you're sitting now, most of them have examples where someone is living them and is still joyful.

adolph 2y ago

now the drain was rusted and when I went to loosen the nut, the steel sink cracked and split, but it was an old sink so I couldn’t find a matching one to replace it with, so that meant the old vanity had to go too, but that left an odd footprint on the curled, old linoleum, so then the flooring had to go too, and, well, if you’re going that far, you might as well put in a new tub. This is a lot like those cascades of technical debt that must be overcome to fix some otherwise minor thing.

4WIW 2y ago
A.k.a Yak Shaving [1] [1] https://seths.blog/2005/03/dont_shave_that/ https://seths.blog/2005/03/dont_shave_that/

timfsu 2y ago

Loved this article. My two "superpowers" as a dad - superglue and new batteries. Sometimes I get to bring out the soldering iron - my wife will bring things home from Buy Nothing so I can fix it, the kids play with it for a day, and then we let it go again, but this time in working condition :)

xivzgrev 2y ago

100%. As I've gotten older, the things that have given me the most satisfaction are those that take place over a long time. It's kind of like planting trees - it can take a while to see the fruit, but then it keeps on giving with some ongoing maintenance. In my life, my significant other, my career, and financials are those areas I heavily invested early on, and a decade on they are quite strong. I still struggle, but when I take a step back, I can see these are very good and feel grateful. There were many times I have been tempted to leave. But I kept an eye on the big picture, what would leaving really change for me? And the answer was not much, I am still me (as noted in the article). On the other hand, I have under invested in myself (health, hobbies, spirituality) and friends. My main struggle is working to shift my focus away from maximizing the former, and begin balancing more of the latter. It's an ongoing journey :)

nxobject 2y ago
I’d like to add something else to that list - the connectedness you feel in a community: the neighbors you grab beer with and help out in a pinch; the cashiers you get to know over time; the people at the after hours sports team or hobbyist community you get to know. Move to a different city (or even across town!) and that takes time to rebuild. It’s why I nearly considered an academic career and decided against it - having to constantly move for grad school, then post doc positions, onwards and onwards regularly never appealed to me.

prideout 2y ago

The "Comment" magazine looks nice, nowadays I don't see many appealing printed magazines. I wonder if there are print publications out there on technical subjects that interest me.

jamesbvaughan 2y ago
Stripe's Increment Magazine was pretty cool, but it seems like they stopped publishing new editions in 2021: https://store.increment.com/ https://store.increment.com/ On the slightly less technical side, I've been enjoying Asterisk Mag: https://asteriskmag.com/ https://asteriskmag.com/
- prideout 2y ago
  Wow Asterisk looks exactly like what I'm interested in!
prideout 2y ago
Today I realized "MIT Technology Review" is another compelling print publication.

dominicq 2y ago

For the most part, "repair and remain" is very good advice, but there's a small but significant percentage where it's the opposite of what you should do. Sometimes you live in a building that's ready for teardown and you should leave (metaphorically and literally).

adamtaylor_13 2y ago
Yeah, but this is good advice precisely because most people don't do it and it's not intuitive.
drnewman 2y ago
True, but I think the point of the article is that, in modern life, we tend to err strongly in the other direction.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  The grass is greener on the other side, so to speak, but instead of going to the other side you can also learn lawn care and fix your own.
  - complete_wolve 2y ago
    Great metaphor
danw1979 2y ago
I know people who bailed on marriages early and I think, yes, this article has some good advice, but it’s also very important to fail fast where failure is inevitable. If this inevitable failure only becomes apparent after you’ve had kids but you’re sure they will grow up only having seen bitterness in their parent’s relationship, then bailing out is still valid advice.
justanotherjoe 2y ago
Obviously the writer is biased towards people who are regular church goers with vices not shameful enough and with a sense of community that they confided to a lay minister. Obviously that selects for relationships which can still be 'saved' with a little repairing. Not to be a downer but while the idea is great, no one knows how things will turn out, as the writer himself conceded.

Zelphyr 2y ago

Several people here are saying something like "Life is too short to be miserable. Get out and be happy." I tried that. In the span of a month we had a newborn, I lost my job, the market went into the worst recession since the Great Depression. Later I lost another job and we had to short-sell our house. We got a divorce and it wasn't because of any of those things (though, they did influence it). It was because my default was to run away from my problems. Funny thing; the divorce didn't eliminate the stress. It just moved it around in my body and mind and led to near constant anger, anxiety, and panic spasms. I went to see a therapist who taught me to be present with what I'm feeling. (He practiced Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, for anyone interested) I did that in earnest and one day about six months after starting therapy I realized what a mistake I had made in giving up on my marriage. I reached out and we were able to repair the relationship and we've been back together for over ten years now, thankfully. We're closer than ever. I don't recommend that particular method of repairing a relationship, by the way. ;) It hasn't always been easy since we got back together but, it has been worth it. We were talking the other day--we talk a lot, important!--and we both agreed that at the start of our relationship, our feelings for each other were very intense. Now that we've been together for over twenty years (with a short "We were on a break!" in the middle) we find that the intensity of our love for each other isn't the same but it is so much deeper than it was at the start and only grows more so the more we're together. We realized that you can only get that if you stay and work on the relationship.

philip1209 2y ago
My understanding is that Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) is considered a "fourth wave" psychotherapy, whereas Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) is considered more "third wave". Many therapists still focus on CBT, so those that are interested in ACT will have to seek out practitioners of it. The classic consumer-facing book about CBT is "Feeling Good", and a good consumer-facing book about ACT is "The Happiness Trap." I share this because your comment may resonate with people, and I think it's important to understand that ACT is quite different than the more-common CBT.
- drnewman 2y ago
  Thank you for clarifying that.

philip1209 2y ago

I enjoyed this article. As a bit of a contrast, I also recommend this article I came across yesterday, which criticizes the American idea of building a home as an isolated utopia: "The Suburban Lifestyle Dream" https://www.ryanpuzycki.com/p/the-suburban-lifestyle-dream https://www.ryanpuzycki.com/p/the-suburban-lifestyle-dream > Even as the West has built some of the world’s most extraordinary cities, this Puritanical, anti-urban throughline runs across our culture. The desire to return to an Edenic state is a central theme in the story of how the “Suburban Lifestyle Dream” first entered our collective conscience. That dream has powered the unique pattern of suburbanization that typifies much of modern America—one marked by “stratified and segregated social geography” and “relatively low density.”

roughly 2y ago

As the saying goes, "Wherever you go, there you are."

zhynn 2y ago

I love the feeling I get when I recycle or repurpose something that would have been trash into something useful. Especially if it becomes even more beautiful from its past patina. This can go too far and put you in a cycle of spending all of your time tending jank (and lowing your quality bar). It's a fine edge to walk. but that pleasure hit that most people get from buying stuff, it doesn't work for me. Buying new things often makes me feel guilty. Re-using or repurposing something though... for me it's one of the best highs there is.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

sneak 2y ago

> Same with pastoring: no point thinking you need a brand-new life, but, well, let’s not kid around—you could use some serious updates and upgrades yourself. This is the core presumption of the arrogance of the christian faith. The very concept that mankind is inherently flawed, always in need of cosmic repair from some imaginary being. If that isn’t the epitome of a toxic and pathological worldview, I don’t know what is. Literally everything good in this life was conceived of and created by mankind.

gowld 2y ago
Yes, it is toxic and pathalogical to assume you are perfect and hurl unsubsantiated allegations. So, please stop.

lr4444lr 2y ago

I cannot overrecommend marriage counseling. (And if you have kids, make sure the counselor has their own kids. It matters a lot.) We tend to devise all manner of distortions about how our spouse really feels, and fear saying things that need to be said. It literally saved my marriage. The reason it has a poor track record IMHO is what this guy is saying about the nail clipper: don't let the problems fester. Oncologists can only save people who are diligent about doing their cancer screenings to catch problems early.

b3kart 2y ago
> make sure the counselor has their own kids I sense a hint of prejudice, the “you’ll understand once you have kids” trope. Surely counsellors training is more important than their personal situation?
- lr4444lr 2y ago
  Both matter, IME. The necessary empathy to make it work can be very hard to engender when the counselor can only understand the dynamics of what children do to a marriage on a detached, observational level.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  Yes, but there's a difference between learning the theory and experiencing the practice. When you see a counsellor you need to trust them and know that they understand; if they say "I understand what it's like to have a child like that because I read about it in a book" you will never be able to take them seriously.
  - b3kart 2y ago
    It depends on the type of therapy, I suppose, but I am not sure it’s reasonable to expect the therapist to have experienced all of the circumstances/problems you’re coming to them with. In my view, a good therapist should have the skills to ask the right _questions_, not give you the _answers_. They should help _you_ reflect and problem-solve.

sneak 2y ago

> But a brand-new house won’t fix your troubles any more than a fresh start with a fascinating new somebody will. With full-grown adults (ie 27-28+), there is rarely such a thing as a fixer-upper. If you’re unhappy with your fully adult partner, cut and run. Life is short and opportunity cost is real. You are doing them and yourself no favors.

throw4023042q0 2y ago
I don't think it's necessarily so black and white. Both parties fell for something, if that's still there, maybe it can be found again. Maybe. If not, sure I agree with you. I don't think it's advisable to stay in an absolutely unhappy AND unfixable relationship. But I do think it's worth trying to fight for it. I'm in a 15 year long relationship, and it's not been smooth sailing. Some experiences require knowing each other very deeply. This is a very powerful experience IMO.
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
That's a bit short-sighted; test whether they are open to change first. A lot of people in this thread are older people who went through therapy and life changing events (that is, change) after ten years, and saved relationships and the like. That said, "I can fix him/her" isn't a good way to enter a relationship.

crabmusket 2y ago

This reminds me, syntactically and conceptually, of the philosophy of parkour I was introduced to when I began practising it during uni. "Être et durer" - to be and to endure. Train for the future, sustainably, without ruining your body. And, "être fort pour être utile" - be strong to be useful. Parkour (as opposed to freerunning) emphasizes the goal, movement, reaching or escaping.

motohagiography 2y ago

Beautiful view. When you have faith, really, you have everything. all that's left are liabilities when you don't. It's the heavy lift. such sparse and honest writing, I often forget pastors are usually really good at that.

interludead 2y ago
Honest communication for me is the key for development in any field of life
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  The problem / resistance there is denial, that is, for example your relationship would end (possibly badly) if you actually were honest.
  - motohagiography 2y ago
    become honest with yourself and recognize your responsibility for your own life and the people you've brought into it, and then do (don't say) what someone who was responsible for them would do, come what may.

chabes 2y ago

Film cameras are not obsolete

interludead 2y ago

You can't run from problems; you need to solve them. Very good thoughts

TedHerman 2y ago

Maintenance. I always wondered why it wasn't ripe for disruption. Perhaps the right founders never came along with the right approach?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

4WIW 2y ago

DIY is good if this is part of your life plan. Otherwise it's a distraction. We live in civilization for a reason; different people specialize in different tasks so that overall, we all can enjoy our lives more. In other words, except for simple little things, don't make me fix my bathroom: there are people who do this faster and better than me, but NO ONE is going to fix bugs in my software for me. To each his own.