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I wouldn't say all the Rust community is toxic. Then again, I'm not sure which Rust community he's referring to, I'm sure there are some toxic ones out there.

Sakos 2y ago
It doesn't matter if only a portion is toxic, because that portion can easily poison the well all on their own for everybody.
- ironmagma 2y ago
  Especially if that portion is in the official nonprofit associated with the language.
  - LoganDark 2y ago
    Eh, I don't personally consider the Rust Foundation to have anything to do with Rust The Language. I consider "the community" to be everyone who doesn't have official ties to the language. Is this incorrect?
- eviks 2y ago
  It does matter because there is a portion that is toxic in about any sizeable community, so following that logic all wells would be easily poisoned
  - LoganDark 2y ago
    All wells are easily poisoned, though; Hyprland for example.
    - eviks 2y ago
      Why would you think an example of one well would prove anything about all wells?
  - Sakos 2y ago
    It matters how vocal and widespread that toxic portion is. In Rust's case, it's significantly larger and more visible and more toxic than I've seen in, say, the Python or C camps. > so following that logic all wells would be easily poisoned All camps are easily poisoned. What's important is how each community deals with the toxicity and whether they consider it acceptable or not. Rust's community has generally accepted this rabid part of it and tacitly accepted their behavior.
ayhanfuat 2y ago
There was a big fight on Twitter last month because of a comment he made 3 years ago (https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/pull/6814 https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/pull/6814). I think that's closely related.
- Spivak 2y ago
  This is such a weird thread, sure it's a nit but grammatically a person of unknown sex should be either "he or she" or "they." And the latter is by far the preferred form by English writers regardless of political affiliation. It didn't become a political thing until Andreas made it political. It would have taken two seconds to be like "+1 Good catch man, merged."
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - skipkey 2y ago
    It could be an age thing. When I was taught grammar 40 plus years ago, for someone of indeterminate sex, “he” was taught as always appropriate, “he or she” was a somewhat clunky alternative that was situationally appropriate where you were stressing the gender neutrality, and “they” was just simply bad grammar which would get you bad marks. I’m honestly not sure when that changed.
    - commodoreboxer 2y ago
      "They" as a gender neutral singular pronoun has never been bad grammar, and has been accepted in common use for many hundreds of years.
      - LoganDark 2y ago
        A fun fact I learned just recently is that even Shakespeare used singular "they": http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002748.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002748.h... (and even singular "themselves"!) which puts to rest approximately every argument I've ever seen against it.
rvense 2y ago
Ladybird and Serenity have a policy of not allowing any sort of expression of or reference to someone's sexuality or gender identity, as this is deemed "divisive" or "politicising". Rust does... not have that.
- nequo 2y ago
  > not allowing any sort of expression of or reference to someone's … gender identity So the use of he/she is banned by those projects?
  - rvense 2y ago
    Not like that. A pull request that replaced "he" in documentation with "they" was closed with the comment "This project is not the place to advocate your personal politics".
    - jeltz 2y ago
      Yeah, that was a pointlessly rude way to close the PR since it assumed ill intent. But tiny pull requests like that are rarely helpful since the one reviewing it will need to check what pronouns are used in the rest of the documentation to make sure the style is consistent so they just create busywork for maintainers even though those PRs are almost always done in good faith. I definitely do not think he was leading by example here. Making assumptions aabout why people do PRs and denying them based on those is a good way to create a toxic community.
      - __float 2y ago
        > the one reviewing it will need to check what pronouns are used in the rest of the documentation to make sure the style is consistent Huh? Nothing in a software project will ever be perfect – code or docs — so this doesn't seem like a reasonable expectation. It's always a process of gradual improvement, and that can be true for a change like this too.
- spencerchubb 2y ago
pjmlp 2y ago
Basically the one that gave origin to Rust Evangelism Strike Force meme.

Sakos 2y ago

It doesn't matter if only a portion is toxic, because that portion can easily poison the well all on their own for everybody.

ironmagma 2y ago
Especially if that portion is in the official nonprofit associated with the language.
- LoganDark 2y ago
  Eh, I don't personally consider the Rust Foundation to have anything to do with Rust The Language. I consider "the community" to be everyone who doesn't have official ties to the language. Is this incorrect?
eviks 2y ago
It does matter because there is a portion that is toxic in about any sizeable community, so following that logic all wells would be easily poisoned
- LoganDark 2y ago
  All wells are easily poisoned, though; Hyprland for example.
  - eviks 2y ago
    Why would you think an example of one well would prove anything about all wells?
- Sakos 2y ago
  It matters how vocal and widespread that toxic portion is. In Rust's case, it's significantly larger and more visible and more toxic than I've seen in, say, the Python or C camps. > so following that logic all wells would be easily poisoned All camps are easily poisoned. What's important is how each community deals with the toxicity and whether they consider it acceptable or not. Rust's community has generally accepted this rabid part of it and tacitly accepted their behavior.

ayhanfuat 2y ago

There was a big fight on Twitter last month because of a comment he made 3 years ago (https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/pull/6814 https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/pull/6814). I think that's closely related.

Spivak 2y ago
This is such a weird thread, sure it's a nit but grammatically a person of unknown sex should be either "he or she" or "they." And the latter is by far the preferred form by English writers regardless of political affiliation. It didn't become a political thing until Andreas made it political. It would have taken two seconds to be like "+1 Good catch man, merged."
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- skipkey 2y ago
  It could be an age thing. When I was taught grammar 40 plus years ago, for someone of indeterminate sex, “he” was taught as always appropriate, “he or she” was a somewhat clunky alternative that was situationally appropriate where you were stressing the gender neutrality, and “they” was just simply bad grammar which would get you bad marks. I’m honestly not sure when that changed.
  - commodoreboxer 2y ago
    "They" as a gender neutral singular pronoun has never been bad grammar, and has been accepted in common use for many hundreds of years.
    - LoganDark 2y ago
      A fun fact I learned just recently is that even Shakespeare used singular "they": http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002748.html http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002748.h... (and even singular "themselves"!) which puts to rest approximately every argument I've ever seen against it.

rvense 2y ago

Ladybird and Serenity have a policy of not allowing any sort of expression of or reference to someone's sexuality or gender identity, as this is deemed "divisive" or "politicising". Rust does... not have that.

nequo 2y ago
> not allowing any sort of expression of or reference to someone's … gender identity So the use of he/she is banned by those projects?
- rvense 2y ago
  Not like that. A pull request that replaced "he" in documentation with "they" was closed with the comment "This project is not the place to advocate your personal politics".
  - jeltz 2y ago
    Yeah, that was a pointlessly rude way to close the PR since it assumed ill intent. But tiny pull requests like that are rarely helpful since the one reviewing it will need to check what pronouns are used in the rest of the documentation to make sure the style is consistent so they just create busywork for maintainers even though those PRs are almost always done in good faith. I definitely do not think he was leading by example here. Making assumptions aabout why people do PRs and denying them based on those is a good way to create a toxic community.
    - __float 2y ago
      > the one reviewing it will need to check what pronouns are used in the rest of the documentation to make sure the style is consistent Huh? Nothing in a software project will ever be perfect – code or docs — so this doesn't seem like a reasonable expectation. It's always a process of gradual improvement, and that can be true for a change like this too.
spencerchubb 2y ago

pjmlp 2y ago

Basically the one that gave origin to Rust Evangelism Strike Force meme.