8 ms·
Can you please explain the timeline of events here?
by rib3ye 2y ago
Can you please explain the timeline of events here?
- dmitrygr 2y agoEdit: someone summarized it better: https://www.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comments/1eoe4u7/so_the_guy_who_wrote_the_badge_firmware_and/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comments/1eoe4u7/so_the_guy_... Approx: Entropic is engaged to make hw. I am asked (unofficially) to do sw. Entropic works for free but does charge for parts and subcontracted stuff . Eventually defcon stops paying. Entropic is uninvited from badge talk. Their logo is ground out of plastic case. Their logo hidden in publicity photos of pcb. Tempers are high. I implement the Easter egg. This is months ago cause thats how long one needs to pre-flash chips. Time passed. Defcon still working on their game last moment. They had volunteers reflash badges cause they didn’t make the real pre flashing deadline. I forgot about the screen entirely more or less. Day of con. I spend all day helping debug badge issues. Push updates. Help people. Even pushed an update from plane on way to con to fix some things. Badge talk time. Half an hour before defcon tells me no talk for me cause someone found the Easter egg screen and they are pissed. I show up anyways since it was promised. I get dragged off stage. I hold talk outside answering questions. Next steps: I have no contact with defcon. They never bothered to. Normally: who cares? I get to talk, people get to play with badges. Nobody cares. But… I got kicked out, and… they have no license to my firmware they are distributing. Likely DMCA notice.
- dtx1 2y agoOne part of me wants you to DMCA the living daylight out of them. The other part is currently seeding torrents and thinks copyright is kinda dumb. Anyway, shitty thing to do by the defcon people.
- dmitrygr 2y agoI have been giving out licenses to the firmware to anybody who asks in the unofficial badge hacking discord. :) also my signature on the badge acts as a nontransferable license to the firmware in source and binary. i signed maybe a thousand today at my unofficial talk outside after i was dragged out.
- waihtis 2y agoWild, but not surprising. Heard a lot of bad stuff from the village heads some years ago already about DC organization.
- tamimio 2y agoAh, defcon drama! Old ones used to be much better anyway.
- loopdoend 2y agoThe ninja badges even had games you could play where you fight other users if I recall correctly. (Mid 2000’s?)
- jtriangle 2y agoWhen they stopped having first time presenters to do a shot of vodka before their talks I stopped caring. That was the end of real defcon.
- kstrauser 2y agoLast years I “had to” do a shot of Malört before stepping up to the podium. (“Had to” means a friend offered me one, laughed, and said “aw, c’mon”. I could’ve easily said no.)
- psifertex 2y agoI don't know why people think this, you're not the first person I've heard it from either. First, I literally saw them do shots during a talk yesterday for some first-time presenters. Secondly that WASN'T the "old defcon" either! Drinking is a relatively new tradition in the history of the con. I've spoken twice. Once at DC 17 (no shot offered) and once at DC 23 (shots were offered). There's video proof: No drinking, DC 17: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okPWY0FeUoU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okPWY0FeUoU Asked to drink, opted for a coin instead (we were asked beforehand): https://youtu.be/6dmvtbrM6hs?feature=shared&t=1153 https://youtu.be/6dmvtbrM6hs?feature=shared&t=1153
- ssl-3 2y agoMan. I've never been to defcon, but it's been more than a passing curiosity ever since the first real announcement[0] crossed my BBS in '93. And recently I've had a string of bad, unalterable, and irrevocably-permanent events occur in my life. And yet, I'm very pleased to say that your write-up on your experiences with the RP2350[1] presented a small but meaningfully-positive thing for me to look forward to. Please be well -- and don't take any guff from these swine[2]. [0] https://media.defcon.org/DEF%20CON%201/DEF%20CON%201%20announce.txt https://media.defcon.org/DEF%20CON%201/DEF%20CON%201%20annou... [1] https://dmitry.gr/?r=06.%20Thoughts&proj=11.%20RP2350 https://dmitry.gr/?r=06.%20Thoughts&proj=11.%20RP2350 [2] https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/fear-and-loathing-in-las-vegas-hunter-s-thompson/1002088488 https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/fear-and-loathing-in-las-ve...
- iwontberude 2y agoDefcon is a waste of time. Nerds pay walled from their friends.
- markus_zhang 2y agoIs blackhat more serious and better?
- MSFT_Edging 2y agoBlackhat is even more of a pay-to-play corporate event.A few years ago, someone paid to do a talk on time traveling crypto and the CEO of trail of bits(iirc) stood up and called him out on the spot over the nonsense tech. Defcon has a lot more grassroots stuff, but it's grown to a size that it cannot avoid the corporate BS anymore. It's probably one of the biggest and most disruptive conferences in Vegas, venues don't like having 1000s of hackers hanging around slot machines.
- markus_zhang 2y agoMaybe they should just move away from Vegas. I don't know why people choose that spot. Why not some place with better view?
- kstenerud 2y agoTime to make your own Defcon. With blackjack. And...
- utopcell 2y agodid they end up paying Entropic in the months that passed ?
- dmitrygr 2y agoNo. But beyond money, the credit hurts more. Having your company name scratches out of plastic molds is … oof.
- utopcell 2y agothis is some pretty ugly stuff. If you are in contact with any of the Entropic folks, maybe point them to this or the r/ thread so that they can provide more context.
- wkat4242 2y agoSounds like there's more going on though. They must have had a reason for not paying? Especially considering the apparent anger with which they removed all references to them. I mean, if they simply ran out of money and couldn't pay they wouldn't be so angry because it was really their own fault. I'd love to hear their sides of that story. (Both Def Con and Entropic). I'm curious now. I'm sorry you got roped into this conflict too though. I have great respect for your work.
- Aeolun 2y agoWhy’d they be pissed about people donating money to the people they didn’t want to pay :/ I just don’t see how they lose anything there (or rather, don’t see how they lose anything there that they lose a hundred times more of by their actual actions, namely reputation).
- YeahThisIsMe 2y agoEvery niche convention either stops existing or transitions into a business that slowly gets rid of all the fun stuff that created it in the first place.
- ahartmetz 2y agoThe CCC congress is still going strong, but it wouldn't work without the many volunteers and non-profit CCC behind it.
- crest 2y agoThere is not just the big end of year congress, but also lots of smaller events organised and run by regional CCC (like) groups in Europe e.g. MRMCD, EasterHegg, the Dutch camps changing the name every time (next one is WHY2025).
- Yeul 2y agoHackers themselves became corpos- or worse work for the intelligence agencies.
- wkat4242 2y agoNot really. The Dutch hacker camps have been pretty constant (save for 2021 for Covid reasons). Run by mostly volunteers yes but basically every participant is a volunteer. It's part of the fun. They've not really shrunk or significantly grown and are really opposed to corporate and government interests (as Fox-IT found out in 2013)
- farhaven 2y ago
- windexh8er 2y agoThank you for the clarification, Defcon has some explaining to do given they make good money on the con. Things have definitely changed.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- abtinf 2y agoIf that’s true, crucify them for piracy. Why would DMCA apply here?
- dmitrygr 2y agoThey are Illegally distributing copies of my firmware on their badges
- Symbiote 2y agoIf they don't have a licence to distribute your software, it's plain copyright infringement. The same as selling photocopies of a book. The DMCA criminalises breaking DRM, or providing tools to do so, such as distributing a tool to remove the DRM from an e-book.
- arghwhat 2y agoThe Digital Millennium Copyright Act also does have provisions related to copyright infringement, not just circumvention devices.
- abtinf 2y agoDMCA is probably irrelevant. This is textbook copyright infringement. $150k statutory damages plus, at the court's discretion, legal costs and fees. And that is just the result of civil action. You could probably find a prosecutor who would love pursue criminal action against the conference to appear strong on cybersecurity. There is a reason why even large corporations, which often play chicken with lesser laws, are extremely careful about copyright infringement. The law has real teeth if the infringer has significant wealth. https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html#504 https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html#504
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- romwell 2y agoOK, everything aside, thank you for your absolutely amazing work and the inspiring writing you do about it! Reading about rePalm has changed my definition of what monumental effort looks like. (You should absolutely add that you managed to get PalmOS running on the badges in question!)
- eddyfromtheblok 2y agoSounds like a fiasco. Have to wonder why parts and subcontractors aren't getting paid
- zmgsabst 2y agoCommercial copyright infringement has a per instance statutory minimum. Demand the minimum for every badge distributed — as even if you later provided licenses to holders, DC had no license when distributing the copies as merchandise at their for-pay event.
- abtinf 2y agoDo this, but absolutely get an attorney. Careful wording is required to avoid the crime of blackmail/extortion.
- wang_li 2y agoWhy do you think they don't have a license from Entropic in the contract they both agreed to? Unless they are utterly incompetent, their contract with Entropic covered this and if Enrtopic delivered firmware that they don't have rights to, that's on them, not on Def Con. Anything that comes to Def Con just results in a lawsuit against Entropic. Additionally, he apparently wrote the code on the plane prior to his arrival and then worked to get it on all the badges. That's going to make it pretty hard to argue that they don't have permission to distribute the badges with this code on them.
- dmitrygr 2y agoThere is no firmware or software mentioned in any signed contracts actually. :popcorn:
- tzs 2y agoStatutory damages are per work infringed, not per infringing copy.
- notinmykernel 2y agoYou left out the part where the "Goons" physically touched you, and forcibly removed you from a location against your will. The "Goons" have no authority to carry out such an act. And there's video footage. Congratulations on winning the lawsuit!
- lukan 2y ago"and forcibly removed you from a location against your will" Not saying they were morally or ethically right, or smart to do this at all - but legally there usually is a right to remove a unwanted person from your stage with the help of your own security.
- more_corn 2y agoYeah, pretty sure if you’re asked to leave an event and you refuse, they can have you escorted out even if you dig in your heels.
- notinmykernel 2y ago... but can you tell me who is legally allowed to physically touch you in that escorting process?
- lukan 2y agoUnder german law, it would be anyone officially acting as security on that property. (It does not have to be a professional security, it can be anyone from staff filling in that role). The police does not want to be called, for every bouncer action. It can get into a grey area, if violence will happen, the security may not simply beat someone out - but grabbing and forcefully moving or carrying out is legal. But if there is serious resistance and the security unable to handle it in a nonescalating way, then they would need to call the police. But usually, the bouncers would just get brutal, then. Attacking security gives them some freedom to act. If other people are endangered by someone, very different scenario, anyone can (and must if possible) stop violence. Source: short stunt as a professional security
- aftbit 2y agoCan I buy a badge or similar hardware after the con?
- StimDeck 2y agoThis link is directly to the comment, I believe. https://www.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comments/1eoe4u7/comment/lheaj3b/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comments/1eoe4u7/comment/lhe...
- PawgerZ 2y agoMissed a couple crucial details >I show up anyways since it was promised. -you get asked to leave the stage -you refused to leave the stage -you told them they'd have to drag you off stage to get you to leave >I get dragged off stage.
- Y_Y 2y agohttps://old.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comments/1eoe4u7/so_the_guy_who_wrote_the_badge_firmware_and/lheaj3b/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comments/1eoe4u7/so_the_guy_...
- soraminazuki 2y agoOof, Defcon organizers even SWATted him?
- brunoqc 2y agoCome on. Calling the cops is nothing like Sweating.
- soraminazuki 2y agoIt's SWATting when you try to pit the cops against innocent people.
- brunoqc 2y agoI don't think so. When people get SWATed, usually a fake call is made, were the police are told that a murder was already committed by the caller and that we will kill everyone on sight. Thus the police expect real danger, brings the big guns and their trigger happy attitude, kick the door in and are more likely to kill the victim. It's not SWATing if the police come to handle a disturbance. The SWAT team need to be deployed for a SWATing. Anyone could have called the cops too. A gathering of 100 people can make people nervous. But I wouldn't be surprised if Defcon called them too.
- junon 2y agoNo, it's not. Let's not dillute the term. SWATing someone is calling in a fake situation on a person that earns them a visit, specifically, from SWAT. Hostage situation, bomb threat, etc. are the usual means of doing so. Calling the police is not SWATing someone.
- rowanG077 2y ago