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Using alternative browser engines in the European Union
- willhackett 2y agoWhy only in the EU?
- chippiewill 2y agoOnly the EU is requiring them to do it, but other governments might start pushing for it given the upsides
- willhackett 2y agoThis is what I don't get. Surely they know this is coming everywhere. Malicious compliance just looks like a dummy spit and hurts consumers.
- albertopv 2y agoIt's Apple, it's not the first time they try malicious compliance way, it won't be the last, it really seems to be the only way they can comply with the law.
- Matl 2y agoBecause they're compelled to do so by EU law, they don't want to do this and no one else forces them to.
- _shantaram 2y agoIt's mind-boggling they are doing all this gymnastics instead of just allowing other browsers and app stores everywhere.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- chongli 2y agoIf you read their requirements you can infer why they’re doing this: security. They absolutely do not want users’ phones hacked by a 3rd party browser bug. Nor do they want a 3rd party browser phoning home with user data. Absolutely the last thing they want is Facebook shipping their app as a browser which bypasses all of Apple’s privacy protections.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- Mashimo 2y ago> Nor do they want a 3rd party browser phoning home with user data. I don't own an iPhone. Could for example firefox on iPhone (that uses webkit?) not phone user data home?
- nolist_policy 2y agoWeird I would expect that iOS sandboxes apps in such a way that it doesn't have any impact on other parts of the phone even if the app is hacked.
- Yeri 2y agolike iMessage. Oh wait :)
- Nextgrid 2y agoiMessage runs at the system level, and there's an argument for it as it needs to run all the time to process incoming message notifications. But I don't see why a browser should run at system level - if the app is closed, there is no reason for its code to be running.
- illiac786 2y agoiMessage has also been the main source of hacks for iPhones for years if not decades. Apple really struggle with securing iMessage. It definitely does not need to run all the time, it could be woken up by incoming notification like all other apps (and I hope it is how it actually works).
- unglaublich 2y agoSo, will Electron apps be an option now, for better or worse?
- _lvbh 2y agoElectron IOS apps are already a thing. I’m pretty sure Obsidian on IOS is electron.
- johnfernow 2y agoLooks like Obsidian uses Capacitor for iOS https://forum.obsidian.md/t/what-technology-obsidian-mobile-is-developed-with/40125/4 https://forum.obsidian.md/t/what-technology-obsidian-mobile-... https://capacitorjs.com/ https://capacitorjs.com/
- _lvbh 2y agoAh I had thought it was Electron because the code is near identical to desktop for most things (if you download the IPA and unpack it, you’ll find an asar archive with the JavaScript)
- minkles 2y agoAs an end user I really don't want Electron apps on my phone. I want people to actually bother to do something native and fast, not cheap for the engineers.
- vmfunction 2y agoOn mobile world, that would be cordova or capcitor or phonegap.
- lostfocus 2y agoIt's honestly weird to me how much work they put into their hissy fits. It's not like their bottom line or their stock price would notice it when they would just open up their OS a bit more.
- ben_w 2y agoIt's also pretty weird for them to have integrated it so hard in the first place given the Microsoft monopoly case about Internet Explorer in the 90s. I'm not even sure why they even bothered to create Safari — even though today it happens to be something I prefer over Chrome, there's also still Firefox — and unless I can answer that, I can't tell why they might care about this.
- rahkiin 2y agoThey never saw iOS as a generic OS like windows. They see the iPhone as an appliance with firmware.
- Rinzler89 2y ago>It's not like their bottom line or their stock price would notice it when they would just open up their OS a bit more. Present day Apple is run by bean counters and lawyers and their job is to be paranoid about anything that threatens Apple's bottom line at all costs, and regulation that force them to allow alternate stores are their biggest threat right now since a lot of their income comes from the App store fees and without the lock in they have no moat since smartphones are a commodity now.
- Yeri 2y agoDidn't Jobs say something along the lines of "But when companies get big, they sometimes lose their way and start to value the wrong things. They start to value the people who create the process, rather than the people who get things done. In a big company, politics can get in the way of what’s really important—great work. In the end, companies don’t die because of this. They die because they stop innovating."
- _shantaram 2y agoIt's mind-boggling they are doing all these gymnastics instead of just allowing alternative app stores and browsers everywhere.
- tetris11 2y agoI want to say they take their security very seriously, but I think its more about their tech support not being ready to face new problems. Of course your local kiosk guy would have no issues.
- danielbln 2y ago> their tech support not being ready to face new problems. One of the largest, most valuable companies on the planet which ships phones, computers, makes their own chips, operates their own cloud service, builds frontier tech devices, but their tech support can't handle some new problems? Does that really seem likely? Or a problem that they couldn't solve if they wanted to?
- yetihehe 2y ago> One of the largest, most valuable companies on the planet > but their tech support can't handle some new problems Now you know WHY it's one of the largest. Tech support doesn't scale. Making millions of copies of the same device and making things once then distributing does scale and brings a lot of profits.
- Yeri 2y agoBy that same logic, having different rules and regulation and review processes per continent, country or region also wouldn't scale.
- wildredkraut 2y agoThey are just trying to uphold their monopoly seriously. Anyway, it will come the one or the other way — everywhere. It's just a matter of time, but on top people will fingerpoint even more at Apple, and it will have a much broader negative impact for Apple than simply by introducing it. With all their recent acting they are just confirming that's all about market power and greed.
- unglaublich 2y ago> Meet the above test suite requirement if Just in Time (JIT) compilation is unavailable (e.g., if Lockdown Mode is enabled by the user) Interesting, I wasn't aware that Lockdown Mode disabled JIT. Does it do that system-wide, or only for third party apps?
- nnx 2y agoThis disables JIT for JSC (JavaScriptCore) system-wide. Third party apps never had been able to JIT on iOS, no permission to write executable pages.
- vmfunction 2y agoIsn't it possible to used JIT for JSC in WebView?
- johncolanduoni 2y agoWKWebView and SafariViewController do, but they run the browser engine and JIT in another process so that the app still doesn’t have the ability to execute unsigned pages.
- vmfunction 2y agoInteresting! How are unsigned pages determined this case?
- liamwire 2y agoAs far as I’m aware, JIT isn’t available to third-party apps on iOS and iPadOS.
- Scaevolus 2y agoYes. It makes JS run at ~30% speed, a worthwhile tradeoff given how often JIT bugs are used in exploit chains. https://daringfireball.net/2024/06/apple_disables_webkits_jit_in_lockdown_mode https://daringfireball.net/2024/06/apple_disables_webkits_ji...
- ryanbigg 2y agoThis is weasel wording but with actions. I’d expect better from Apple
- worksonmine 2y ago> I’d expect better from Apple Why? They've always been this way. I still remember when my friend couldn't see any of my (windows and android at the time) devices but I saw all of his on bluetooth. They've never liked competition. This is apple, this is how they do business. I don't think anyone using their products will care though, they'll find a way to spin it into something that is good for them.
- thrdbndndn 2y ago> Requirements >> To qualify for the entitlement, your app must: >>> Be distributed solely on iOS and/or iPadOS in the European Union; I assume this means you have to release a separate App like "Firefox EU" to be able to use Gecko, right? Practically speaking, would any major players actually do it? It just sounds unlikely to me but I may miss something.
- chongli 2y agoYes it needs to be a separate binary. You can’t offer an app with selectable browser engines.
- 0x073 2y agoAnd it's bad for the users, they can't rely on the browsername and get different bug and features. Its a mess, thanks apple.
- AnonC 2y ago> I assume this means you have to release a separate App like "Firefox EU" to be able to use Gecko, right? Practically speaking, would any major players actually do it? I can imagine browser makers creating names like “Freedom browser, by Firefox”, “Courage browser, by Brave”, “Live on the Edge, by Microsoft”, and so on.
- ilrwbwrkhv 2y agoI just want to use firefox with ublock origin on the iPhone.
- worksonmine 2y agoYou can on Android, why do you need the iPhone?
- troad 2y agoNot OP, but as someone who hates ads and values privacy, switching to a phone built by the world's largest data broker / advertising agency seems like a bit of wrong turn. iOS has many - many! - issues, but it is a more privacy-respecting platform than Android is. I'm not saying this to knock Android; I would dearly love it if Google weren't such a data hoover. I'd switch over and never look back.
- worksonmine 2y agoHow about a Pixel with GrapheneOS then? Or even a Linux phone if you can live without some apps? There are options and compromises.
- adamomada 2y agoI thought about it but it’s not really an option if you need certain apps / push notifications. If the options are Android without google play services vs iPhone, the realistic option is iPhone.
- worksonmine 2y agoGrapheneOS has a neat feature called profiles, so you can have a profile with play services when needed but your main one can be de-googled. Push notifications and apps are cancer anyways, try to live without them.
- troad 2y ago
- _lvbh 2y ago> Program privacy requirements You must do the following: Block cross-site cookies (i.e., third-party cookies) by default I wonder if chrome will implement their sandbox on IOS first because of this
- hexage1814 2y ago>Apple will only authorize developers to implement alternative browser engines after meeting specific criteria and who commit to a number of ongoing privacy and security requirements Smells like malicious compliance.
- Sakos 2y agoI want to know if Firefox or Chrome would pass these requirements as is. If not, they're clearly taking the piss and the EU should take a gigantic dump on them.
- isodev 2y agoHow come Apple is installing itself as the qualified party to judge if a browser is good or not? It's rich coming from the company that has been feeding us Safari for so many years. I don't mind the expectation for a certain level of quality on the app store, however it should not propagate to alternative stores.
- rahkiin 2y agoI keep seeing complaints about Safari that I never understood. Could you elaborate on why Safari is a bad browser?
- NightlyDev 2y agoSafari has been holding back web development for many years. In this announcement Apple requires support for X features to allow a browser, but if you look at the page, Safari is worse than Firefox and Chrome/Edge. The browser is unstable, has had large amounts of bugs and race conditions, refuses to add features that can make the browser a better competitor for apps unless forced to by regulation, and so on... Safari on iOS is garbage, and that's the way Apple wants it to be. It just has to be OK so that iOS users don't understand how bad it really is. Literally 15 minutes ago a customer asked me if I could add push notification support for iOS, as Apple has refused to do so on iOS for many many years. But Apple did add it when the pressure around competition increased, so now it should work with updated iOS. Apple is a shit company for consumers, and they are actively sabotaging the web to increase their profits. This is not just something I'm saying. When Apple was forced to allow other browsers in the EU, they announced that they would turn off support for progressive web apps in the EU(apps added to the home screen, push notifications they just added because they were afraid of this and so on). They did go back on it after developer pushback. I haven't looked into this, but I'm pretty sure that Apple has done something to make sure other browsers can't develop PWA features. Cause that is what Apple does.
- BoppreH 2y ago> Program security requirements >> You must do the following: >>> Use memory-safe programming languages, or features that improve memory safety within other languages, within the alternative web browser engine at a minimum for all code that processes web content; AFAIK all major engines are written primarily in C++. This "features that improve memory safety" is worryingly vague, and we already know Apple goes out of it's way to make these rulings less useful. I wouldn't be surprised if they rejected both Firefox and Chrome on these grounds.
- mariusor 2y agoWould Safari even qualify?
- znpy 2y agoSafari is based on WebKit, which is written in C++ afaik. So I'd say no.
- KolenCh 2y ago> … or features that improve memory safety within other languages So it is not based on language only.
- nephanth 2y agoYes, but it is still very vague. Do c++ smart pointers qualify? If so, what percentage of pointers should be smart pointers? It's very easy for AAPL to make this rule say whatever they want it to
- mariusor 2y agoMy question was rather rhetorical. :)
- anal_reactor 2y agoI really think that if they don't allow Firefox they'll get another lawsuit. The way I see it is that they allow Firefox and Chrome, but nothing more.
- fwef64 2y agoCan anyone explain why is Apple so opposed to having different browser engineson iOS? Is it really just about security? I don't understand what is Apple to gain by not allowing 3rd party engines everywhere in the world.
- andreapaiola 2y agoWebView in app vs PWA (Progressive Web App)
- jsnell 2y agoControlling the only browser engine on the most important end user OS means Apple has a veto on what can be done with the web platform in practice. If they want to press a pillow on the face of the web and watch it desperately struggle for air, they can. And of course they want to do that. What is good for the web is bad for Apple. They need web apps to be unviable to maximise the platform lock-in and the rents they can extract via the App Store. ("They" being senior Apple leadership; I'm sure the people working directly on WebKit are doing the best they can given their resource constraints and strategic guidance.)
- rf15 2y ago> To qualify for the entitlement, your app must: > Be distributed solely on iOS and/or iPadOS in the European Union These jokers. This is the usual malicious compliance.
- rahkiin 2y agoI think they mean you can not distribute it to the US, as this is a EU mandate-only.
- nnx 2y agoI'm all for Apple opening up to other browser engines on iOS but at the same time I'm worrying that this is gonna end up in furthering Chrome as "the web" over time. Especially considering iOS is far from having majority marketshare in EU compared to Android... this feels like forcing a minor player (iOS in EU) to help a major player (Chrome).
- sunshinerag 2y agoWhy don't apple just dump EU instead of adhering all its bureaucratic regulations?
- beardyw 2y agoMaybe it's because the EU population is more than North America. They do want to sell phones.
- troad 2y agoPopulation, rather obviously, is not a meaningful metric for quantifying consumer spending on luxury electronics and digital services. According to Apple, the EU only accounts for 7% of their App Store revenue.[0] It's not nothing, but it's a much less important market for Apple than some may think. [0] https://9to5mac.com/2024/02/01/apple-says-the-eu-accounts-for-just-7-of-its-global-app-store-revenue/ https://9to5mac.com/2024/02/01/apple-says-the-eu-accounts-fo...
- beardyw 2y agoNow I would say that's an opportunity for growth, but who am I.
- troad 2y agoEurope already has all the middle- and upper-class people it will ever have, they've all heard of Apple, and they mostly don't use their products. Europe's share of the world economy is in decline. The regulatory environment is obviously perceived as extremely hostile from Apple's perspective, and rapidly deteriorating. I'm not sure where you're seeing these opportunities for growth, but I doubt Apple agrees. Asia is wealthier than Europe and rapidly expanding. Tens of millions of people join the Asian middle class each year - upwardly-mobile, aspirational, and ready to be wooed over to their first Apple product. A much more rational direction for growth, by any measure. Europe's 7% contribution wouldn't take long to replace if they pushed aggressively into booming Asian economies. I'm not saying Apple should abandon Europe - I don't think they will, unless pushed out by some new law they simply can't comply with - but I doubt Europe is seen as a growth region for Apple (or other tech firms). I don't expect devices or services currently available in Europe to be withdrawn, but I do expect the region to be increasingly left out of the roll-out of future devices and services.
- fabian2k 2y agoThe main question is whether they will allow Firefox, Chrome and Edge to use their own engine or not. The guidelines leave enough room to deny any potential browser engine if they want to, so it depends entirely on how Apple will decide on actual cases.
- sharpshadow 2y agoI wonder if WebKit would pass these requirements.
- apexalpha 2y agoThe arrogance of thinking you can take on an entire continent. Besides that I wonder what happens if I travel outside of the EU. Will they just remotely disable everything I could do while in the EU?
- difosfor 2y agoOK, then Apple should also be transparent and show how they meet all of these requirements no? Actually this should probably be judged by an independent organization. Great idea Apple! Kind of ironic that they are also requiring WPT compliance while they are the worst scoring major browser there.