7 ms·

macOS Sequoia makes it harder to run not notarized or signed apps

85 points by danirod 2y ago

pjkundert 2y ago
This is not good. I've spend literally days attempting to get a Python-based GUI application "signed", using every available packaging option and dozens of different approaches recommended by a multitude of different sources. Absolute failure -- and no usable error messages indicating what might be wrong. Just basically "no, you can't upload that.". This does not bode well...
- talldayo 2y ago
  > This does not bode well... What, in the past 10 years of MacOS development trends, suggested to you that anything was headed in the remote direction of "boding well"?
  - pjkundert 2y ago
    Admittedly, I've done 99% of my development to target Linux, and just happen to use a Mac for its simpler and less time-consuming day-to-day GUI management. This is the first time I've tried to develop something to target a macOS installation -- and it was a train-wreck.
- burnte 2y ago
  Sounds like it's working as Apple has intended.
- Manfred 2y ago
  I think that's the biggest issue with code signing, Xcode should come with a "Sign and Notarize.app" that allows you to sign anything you point it at with a single click.
ryandrake 2y ago
Apple seems to like to coerce their users onto their preferred track little by little, release after release, instead of hamfistedly forcing it on day one. Instead, each release is a small drip of inconvenience and nudging. Long time ago, you could run any executable you wanted. Then, you got a little nag, but whatever. Then (I think) you had to right click and take an extra step to run them, with a scary warning. Then, you got an even scarier warning and had to navigate into Settings to select "Allow applications downloaded from" -> Anywhere. Then, they removed the "Anywhere" option, but you could re-enable it with the command line. It's also directionally clear: They surely intend to fully boil the frog one day and remove the ability to do this. Se also: The UX you have to navigate in order to fill your own password into web pages on Safari.
al_borland 2y ago
I hope they will at least prompt the user to let them know what’s going on. I’ve run into this before on macOS, where an app wouldn’t launch, and on a hunch I went into the security settings and saw a section there were it was blocked and I could allow it. There was not even a hint of this in the error message when trying to launch the app. It was a very poor experience. I’ll also be curious if placing the app in ~/Applications avoids the restriction. This has long been my way to get around some of the restrictions at work. /Applications requires admin rights, ~/Applications does not. Apps still show up in LaunchPad and work as normal (as far as I’ve seen), they are just only available to the user, instead of all users, which is fine for my situation. I used to have to request admin rights every time VS Code wanted to update on my work laptop, but since I put it in my user folder instead, it’s been smooth sailing.
- lapcat 2y ago
  > I hope they will at least prompt the user to let them know what’s going on. They don't. > I’ll also be curious if placing the app in ~/Applications avoids the restriction. It doesn't.
usernamed7 2y ago
[flagged]
- amiantos 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - idle_zealot 2y ago
    It's a cancer in the sense that it is a growing and spreading idea in Apple's ecosystem, and is strangling the usability of its products. It doesn't really resemble a genocide metaphorically.
    - usernamed7 2y ago
      thank you - this is what i meant when i said cancer.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
akyuu 2y ago
It also adds a new permission prompt for screenshot and screen recording apps that doesn’t allow a user to permanently grant permission, but requires a weekly re-authorization. https://9to5mac.com/2024/08/06/macos-sequoia-screen-recording-privacy-prompt/ https://9to5mac.com/2024/08/06/macos-sequoia-screen-recordin...
- AlexandrB 2y ago
  I hate the periodic location permission prompts on iOS. Big tech companies are increasingly paternalistic with this stuff, like their users are all idiots who need to be managed like little children. Some other examples I've recently encountered: - 1Password requires supplying a password hint when changing the master password. - Unifi OS enforcing password quality requirements even when locally/self hosted. - "Set up later" (instead of "No") as the negative option for various "helpful" feature prompts in iOS.
  - euroderf 2y ago
    > "Set up later" (instead of "No") as the negative option for various "helpful" feature prompts in iOS. I'm OK with this. When the prompt appears, you're very much trying to do something else, and ya don't need the detour. "Bug me l8r plz."
    - JoshTriplett 2y ago
      I'm not; it's passive-aggressive. Any dialogue of the form "Yes"/"Ask Later" is a framing that prevents you from saying "No, go away forever, I don't want this ever".
      - euroderf 2y ago
        Agreed. But this type of dialog rarely has three choices.
  - jwells89 2y ago
    It’s worth keeping in mind that in the case of Apple platforms, a lot of this has roots in the revelation a decade and change ago that third party software on mobile platforms can and will exploit every affordance the operating system offers to extract data, often silently. It’s no different on desktop OSes, but users have been more acclimated to it there since full blown access to everything has been the norm there longer than it hasn’t. That said I can certainly see the argument that Apple isn’t going about handling this set of problems correctly, but ignoring it or pretending it doesn’t exist isn’t right either.
AlexandrB 2y ago
Apple needs more antitrust scrutiny if for no other reason than to make them reconsider the direction they're headed on third party software.
- bitwize 2y ago
  Apple are not a monopoly. Not the way Google is and Microsoft was.
  - talldayo 2y ago
    The multinational antitrust scrutiny is purely coincidental.
    - coldtea 2y ago
      It's easy money.
      - talldayo 2y ago
        Not in municipalities where Apple pays taxes.
freitzkriesler2 2y ago
Every day we march closer and closer to a neutered IOS walled garden on OSX and it makes me sad because I otherwise love OSX.
- m463 2y ago
  They should go the OTHER way, relaxing iOS.
  - Hamuko 2y ago
    They are (when forced by the EU).
galleywest200 2y ago
> In macOS Sequoia, users will no longer be able to Control-click to override Gatekeeper when opening software that isn’t signed correctly or notarized. Will Right Click > Open still work? That is how I currently bypass this issue with unsigned applications.
- lapcat 2y ago
  Right-click and control-click are the same thing.
- Hamuko 2y ago
  No because Control+Left-click = Right-click.
- fragmede 2y ago
  hopefully xattr -d com.apple.quarantine will keep working.
  - pxc 2y ago
    I've had some apps refuse to run until I acknowledged their signer in the Security & Privacy section of System Preferences even though the quarantine bit was not set, unfortunately.
    - jasomill 2y ago
      Did the app include a system or kernel extension? Because I'm pretty sure these always require Security & Privacy authorization even when unquarantined, signed, and notarized.
      - pxc 2y ago
        The two that I saw this were OrbStack and Podman Desktop, when their signatures were replaced (I think to ensure that their trampoline (launcher shim) apps could have the same signatures as the real apps). Maybe apps that use Apple's virtualization APIs qualify here? Here's the context of that experiment, after which I went back to installing those apps via brew and using them without such modifications: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41126387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41126387
devlsadvocate 2y ago
[flagged]
bloopernova 2y ago
Edit: referencing this article: https://9to5mac.com/2024/08/06/macos-sequoia-screen-recording-privacy-prompt/ https://9to5mac.com/2024/08/06/macos-sequoia-screen-recordin... This is going to make running a DisplayLink (not DisplayPort) display very onerous if not impossible. I guess I only get to use 2 external screens if I'm forced to upgrade my work mac.
- Synaesthesia 2y ago
  I presume this annoyance is just something you will go through when running the app the first time.
  - bloopernova 2y ago
    Ack, I didn't reply to the right comment. I was referring to the new weekly and every reboot prompt about screen recording: https://9to5mac.com/2024/08/06/macos-sequoia-screen-recording-privacy-prompt/ https://9to5mac.com/2024/08/06/macos-sequoia-screen-recordin...
    - Synaesthesia 2y ago
      Snap that is bloody annoying.
rahen 2y ago
This will mostly affect advanced users. Hopefully, my next update will be Asahi, once its hardware support (especially HDMI output) has advanced enough.
- beiller 2y ago
  I tried Asahi on my older M1 macbook and the battery life is still very bad. I am pretty experienced trying to dive into CPU schedulers and kernel settings, etc. to try and fix it, but I was unable to squeeze more than about 3 hours of battery out of the laptop WHILE CLOSED! In contrast just booting up mac os the battery lasts about 36 hours+ while closed.
  - pxc 2y ago
    I bought a used M1 Max MBP recently, in part because the Asahi features table is starting to look pretty good. But with the remaining outstanding hardware issues and the battery life gap in mind, I will probably get an overall better experience sooner if I just pony up for the upcoming Snapdragon X Elite laptop from Tuxedo Computers¹. :-\ On the other hand, the whole Linux desktop stack has benefited from work that Asahi devs have done, so I think that project is still undeniably valuable even for users on other aarch64 hardware. -- 1: https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/TUXEDO-on-ARM-is-coming.tuxedo https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/TUXEDO-on-ARM-is-coming.t...
  - rahen 2y ago
    When did you try it? There were some big improvements recently: > Putting EAS and utilisation clamping together, we took a 15" M2 MacBook Air from about 6 hours of useable battery life just sitting at the desktop to about 8-10 hours of 1080p30 YouTube, 12-15 hours of desktop use, and an enormous 25-28 hours of screen-off idle time. We still have many more tricks up our sleeves to eke out more battery life, and a deep dive on EAS utilisation clamping is in the works. Watch this space! https://www.notebookcheck.net/Asahi-Linux-improves-battery-life-and-graphics-features-on-Apple-Silicon-Macs.793258.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Asahi-Linux-improves-battery-l...
Hamuko 2y ago
Sorry Apple, but I have no intention to pay 100€ per year for the privilege to notarise an application I have up for free on a GitHub repo no matter how shitty you make the process. At the moment I'm just linking to https://disable-gatekeeper.github.io/ https://disable-gatekeeper.github.io/ and hoping that if anyone ever comes across my repo, that they know how to read and won't bother me about it. Maybe in the future the optimal solution would be to just not provide any pre-built binaries.
- jhbadger 2y ago
  Yeah, this is exactly the problem. Apple doesn't want hobbyist programmers either on iOS or MacOS. They see inconveniencing open source programmers who aren't selling a product (and therefore not going to pay Apple for the right of being an "official developer") as a good thing.
PedroBatista 2y ago
Yes, make macOS more and more like iPadOS so their users can do less and less other than buying apps from the app store and scrolling through the slop on Safari. Apple kinda reminds me of Intel in the 2010's ( not 1-1 comparison ), hollowed and rotting inside but in a constant party because $$ coming in and line going up.. They wrongly think because they control the dials when things start to go south they can just step on the gas and change course, it's a fools illusion because the people who actually can make a difference will not be there and the whole organization already is tuned for the wrong incentives, so when Tim Apple's minions step of the gas... nothing will happen other than pumping out more "beautiful, amazing, thinner" but useless slop.
- JohnMakin 2y ago
  > Yes, make macOS more and more like iPadOS so their users can do less and less other than buying apps from the app store and scrolling through the slop on Safari. This doesn't seem at all a fair characterization of what happened here - you can still run these applications, they just added a (seemingly pretty reasonable) step to do so. I don't see this as allowing users to do less, and I struggle to find a strong argument against this when the typical user is not a l33t hacker type and most typical users find it extremely easy to download and run malware.
  - forrestthewoods 2y ago
    > you can still run these applications, they just added a (seemingly pretty reasonable) step to do so. Every version of macOS makes it harder and harder to run unsigned code. They keep pushing the bypass deeper and making it less convenient. It’s super super annoying and stupid.
  - archagon 2y ago
    Protecting users against malware should be the job of XProtect. If a naive user can run malware via right-clicking, they can do it nearly as easily through the Privacy & Security page. All this change does is bring unsigned software closer to outright deprecation, at which point Apple can backdoor app review through notarization just like they do on iOS in the EU.
coldtea 2y ago
>The only people who knew about the Control-click shortcut were ones who probably understood the risks they were taking. Or users who were told to "control click" by malicious sites peddling trojan horses and other stuff, so that they never see a warning
- lapcat 2y ago
  > so that they never see a warning Untrue. You always see a warning: https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/unsigned.html https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/unsigned.html
seam_carver 2y ago
As a maintainer of an open source app with 30K downloads per version, this will definitely make inconvenience my macos users
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
rdedev 2y ago
The usual arguments I hear for this is grandma or kid following these specific instructions and installing a malware. But how many attacks make use of these?
sys_64738 2y ago
The amount of Mac development has cratered in recent years. No money to be made compared to iOS.
kaycey2022 2y ago
The kind of mob “protection” that no one needs

85 points by danirod 2y ago

This is not good. I've spend literally days attempting to get a Python-based GUI application "signed", using every available packaging option and dozens of different approaches recommended by a multitude of different sources. Absolute failure -- and no usable error messages indicating what might be wrong. Just basically "no, you can't upload that.". This does not bode well...

talldayo 2y ago
> This does not bode well... What, in the past 10 years of MacOS development trends, suggested to you that anything was headed in the remote direction of "boding well"?
- pjkundert 2y ago
  Admittedly, I've done 99% of my development to target Linux, and just happen to use a Mac for its simpler and less time-consuming day-to-day GUI management. This is the first time I've tried to develop something to target a macOS installation -- and it was a train-wreck.
burnte 2y ago
Sounds like it's working as Apple has intended.
Manfred 2y ago
I think that's the biggest issue with code signing, Xcode should come with a "Sign and Notarize.app" that allows you to sign anything you point it at with a single click.

ryandrake 2y ago

Apple seems to like to coerce their users onto their preferred track little by little, release after release, instead of hamfistedly forcing it on day one. Instead, each release is a small drip of inconvenience and nudging. Long time ago, you could run any executable you wanted. Then, you got a little nag, but whatever. Then (I think) you had to right click and take an extra step to run them, with a scary warning. Then, you got an even scarier warning and had to navigate into Settings to select "Allow applications downloaded from" -> Anywhere. Then, they removed the "Anywhere" option, but you could re-enable it with the command line. It's also directionally clear: They surely intend to fully boil the frog one day and remove the ability to do this. Se also: The UX you have to navigate in order to fill your own password into web pages on Safari.

al_borland 2y ago

I hope they will at least prompt the user to let them know what’s going on. I’ve run into this before on macOS, where an app wouldn’t launch, and on a hunch I went into the security settings and saw a section there were it was blocked and I could allow it. There was not even a hint of this in the error message when trying to launch the app. It was a very poor experience. I’ll also be curious if placing the app in ~/Applications avoids the restriction. This has long been my way to get around some of the restrictions at work. /Applications requires admin rights, ~/Applications does not. Apps still show up in LaunchPad and work as normal (as far as I’ve seen), they are just only available to the user, instead of all users, which is fine for my situation. I used to have to request admin rights every time VS Code wanted to update on my work laptop, but since I put it in my user folder instead, it’s been smooth sailing.

lapcat 2y ago
> I hope they will at least prompt the user to let them know what’s going on. They don't. > I’ll also be curious if placing the app in ~/Applications avoids the restriction. It doesn't.

usernamed7 2y ago

[flagged]

amiantos 2y ago
[flagged]
- idle_zealot 2y ago
  It's a cancer in the sense that it is a growing and spreading idea in Apple's ecosystem, and is strangling the usability of its products. It doesn't really resemble a genocide metaphorically.
  - usernamed7 2y ago
    thank you - this is what i meant when i said cancer.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

akyuu 2y ago

It also adds a new permission prompt for screenshot and screen recording apps that doesn’t allow a user to permanently grant permission, but requires a weekly re-authorization. https://9to5mac.com/2024/08/06/macos-sequoia-screen-recording-privacy-prompt/ https://9to5mac.com/2024/08/06/macos-sequoia-screen-recordin...

AlexandrB 2y ago
I hate the periodic location permission prompts on iOS. Big tech companies are increasingly paternalistic with this stuff, like their users are all idiots who need to be managed like little children. Some other examples I've recently encountered: - 1Password requires supplying a password hint when changing the master password. - Unifi OS enforcing password quality requirements even when locally/self hosted. - "Set up later" (instead of "No") as the negative option for various "helpful" feature prompts in iOS.
- euroderf 2y ago
  > "Set up later" (instead of "No") as the negative option for various "helpful" feature prompts in iOS. I'm OK with this. When the prompt appears, you're very much trying to do something else, and ya don't need the detour. "Bug me l8r plz."
  - JoshTriplett 2y ago
    I'm not; it's passive-aggressive. Any dialogue of the form "Yes"/"Ask Later" is a framing that prevents you from saying "No, go away forever, I don't want this ever".
    - euroderf 2y ago
      Agreed. But this type of dialog rarely has three choices.
- jwells89 2y ago
  It’s worth keeping in mind that in the case of Apple platforms, a lot of this has roots in the revelation a decade and change ago that third party software on mobile platforms can and will exploit every affordance the operating system offers to extract data, often silently. It’s no different on desktop OSes, but users have been more acclimated to it there since full blown access to everything has been the norm there longer than it hasn’t. That said I can certainly see the argument that Apple isn’t going about handling this set of problems correctly, but ignoring it or pretending it doesn’t exist isn’t right either.

AlexandrB 2y ago

Apple needs more antitrust scrutiny if for no other reason than to make them reconsider the direction they're headed on third party software.

bitwize 2y ago
Apple are not a monopoly. Not the way Google is and Microsoft was.
- talldayo 2y ago
  The multinational antitrust scrutiny is purely coincidental.
  - coldtea 2y ago
    It's easy money.
    - talldayo 2y ago
      Not in municipalities where Apple pays taxes.

freitzkriesler2 2y ago

Every day we march closer and closer to a neutered IOS walled garden on OSX and it makes me sad because I otherwise love OSX.

m463 2y ago
They should go the OTHER way, relaxing iOS.
- Hamuko 2y ago
  They are (when forced by the EU).

galleywest200 2y ago

> In macOS Sequoia, users will no longer be able to Control-click to override Gatekeeper when opening software that isn’t signed correctly or notarized. Will Right Click > Open still work? That is how I currently bypass this issue with unsigned applications.

lapcat 2y ago
Right-click and control-click are the same thing.
Hamuko 2y ago
No because Control+Left-click = Right-click.
fragmede 2y ago
hopefully xattr -d com.apple.quarantine will keep working.
- pxc 2y ago
  I've had some apps refuse to run until I acknowledged their signer in the Security & Privacy section of System Preferences even though the quarantine bit was not set, unfortunately.
  - jasomill 2y ago
    Did the app include a system or kernel extension? Because I'm pretty sure these always require Security & Privacy authorization even when unquarantined, signed, and notarized.
    - pxc 2y ago
      The two that I saw this were OrbStack and Podman Desktop, when their signatures were replaced (I think to ensure that their trampoline (launcher shim) apps could have the same signatures as the real apps). Maybe apps that use Apple's virtualization APIs qualify here? Here's the context of that experiment, after which I went back to installing those apps via brew and using them without such modifications: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41126387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41126387

devlsadvocate 2y ago

[flagged]

bloopernova 2y ago

Edit: referencing this article: https://9to5mac.com/2024/08/06/macos-sequoia-screen-recording-privacy-prompt/ https://9to5mac.com/2024/08/06/macos-sequoia-screen-recordin... This is going to make running a DisplayLink (not DisplayPort) display very onerous if not impossible. I guess I only get to use 2 external screens if I'm forced to upgrade my work mac.

Synaesthesia 2y ago
I presume this annoyance is just something you will go through when running the app the first time.
- bloopernova 2y ago
  Ack, I didn't reply to the right comment. I was referring to the new weekly and every reboot prompt about screen recording: https://9to5mac.com/2024/08/06/macos-sequoia-screen-recording-privacy-prompt/ https://9to5mac.com/2024/08/06/macos-sequoia-screen-recordin...
  - Synaesthesia 2y ago
    Snap that is bloody annoying.

rahen 2y ago

This will mostly affect advanced users. Hopefully, my next update will be Asahi, once its hardware support (especially HDMI output) has advanced enough.

beiller 2y ago
I tried Asahi on my older M1 macbook and the battery life is still very bad. I am pretty experienced trying to dive into CPU schedulers and kernel settings, etc. to try and fix it, but I was unable to squeeze more than about 3 hours of battery out of the laptop WHILE CLOSED! In contrast just booting up mac os the battery lasts about 36 hours+ while closed.
- pxc 2y ago
  I bought a used M1 Max MBP recently, in part because the Asahi features table is starting to look pretty good. But with the remaining outstanding hardware issues and the battery life gap in mind, I will probably get an overall better experience sooner if I just pony up for the upcoming Snapdragon X Elite laptop from Tuxedo Computers¹. :-\ On the other hand, the whole Linux desktop stack has benefited from work that Asahi devs have done, so I think that project is still undeniably valuable even for users on other aarch64 hardware. -- 1: https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/TUXEDO-on-ARM-is-coming.tuxedo https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/TUXEDO-on-ARM-is-coming.t...
- rahen 2y ago
  When did you try it? There were some big improvements recently: > Putting EAS and utilisation clamping together, we took a 15" M2 MacBook Air from about 6 hours of useable battery life just sitting at the desktop to about 8-10 hours of 1080p30 YouTube, 12-15 hours of desktop use, and an enormous 25-28 hours of screen-off idle time. We still have many more tricks up our sleeves to eke out more battery life, and a deep dive on EAS utilisation clamping is in the works. Watch this space! https://www.notebookcheck.net/Asahi-Linux-improves-battery-life-and-graphics-features-on-Apple-Silicon-Macs.793258.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Asahi-Linux-improves-battery-l...

Hamuko 2y ago

Sorry Apple, but I have no intention to pay 100€ per year for the privilege to notarise an application I have up for free on a GitHub repo no matter how shitty you make the process. At the moment I'm just linking to https://disable-gatekeeper.github.io/ https://disable-gatekeeper.github.io/ and hoping that if anyone ever comes across my repo, that they know how to read and won't bother me about it. Maybe in the future the optimal solution would be to just not provide any pre-built binaries.

jhbadger 2y ago
Yeah, this is exactly the problem. Apple doesn't want hobbyist programmers either on iOS or MacOS. They see inconveniencing open source programmers who aren't selling a product (and therefore not going to pay Apple for the right of being an "official developer") as a good thing.

PedroBatista 2y ago

Yes, make macOS more and more like iPadOS so their users can do less and less other than buying apps from the app store and scrolling through the slop on Safari. Apple kinda reminds me of Intel in the 2010's ( not 1-1 comparison ), hollowed and rotting inside but in a constant party because $$ coming in and line going up.. They wrongly think because they control the dials when things start to go south they can just step on the gas and change course, it's a fools illusion because the people who actually can make a difference will not be there and the whole organization already is tuned for the wrong incentives, so when Tim Apple's minions step of the gas... nothing will happen other than pumping out more "beautiful, amazing, thinner" but useless slop.

JohnMakin 2y ago
> Yes, make macOS more and more like iPadOS so their users can do less and less other than buying apps from the app store and scrolling through the slop on Safari. This doesn't seem at all a fair characterization of what happened here - you can still run these applications, they just added a (seemingly pretty reasonable) step to do so. I don't see this as allowing users to do less, and I struggle to find a strong argument against this when the typical user is not a l33t hacker type and most typical users find it extremely easy to download and run malware.
- forrestthewoods 2y ago
  > you can still run these applications, they just added a (seemingly pretty reasonable) step to do so. Every version of macOS makes it harder and harder to run unsigned code. They keep pushing the bypass deeper and making it less convenient. It’s super super annoying and stupid.
- archagon 2y ago
  Protecting users against malware should be the job of XProtect. If a naive user can run malware via right-clicking, they can do it nearly as easily through the Privacy & Security page. All this change does is bring unsigned software closer to outright deprecation, at which point Apple can backdoor app review through notarization just like they do on iOS in the EU.

coldtea 2y ago

>The only people who knew about the Control-click shortcut were ones who probably understood the risks they were taking. Or users who were told to "control click" by malicious sites peddling trojan horses and other stuff, so that they never see a warning

lapcat 2y ago
> so that they never see a warning Untrue. You always see a warning: https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/unsigned.html https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/unsigned.html

seam_carver 2y ago

As a maintainer of an open source app with 30K downloads per version, this will definitely make inconvenience my macos users

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

rdedev 2y ago

The usual arguments I hear for this is grandma or kid following these specific instructions and installing a malware. But how many attacks make use of these?

sys_64738 2y ago

The amount of Mac development has cratered in recent years. No money to be made compared to iOS.

kaycey2022 2y ago

The kind of mob “protection” that no one needs