6 ms·

How long does Apple support Mac firmware?

88 points by zdw 2y ago

HashiramaInc 2y ago
Great article and nice blog layout. 8 years seems like long enough. Did you actually buy 40 macbooks from different eras?
- brcmthrowaway 2y ago
  [flagged]
- klausa 2y ago
  The data was probably extracted from the macOS update files.
- pram 2y ago
  He makes an app that tells you if your system is on all of the current patches so he presumably already had the data.
tedunangst 2y ago
After a year or so, I'd expect firmware stability to level off.
- timetopay 2y ago
  Unfortunately, (or fortunately depending on how you look at it), new security issues tend to be found over a device's lifespan.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
    I'm beginning to think that "security" is just a way to make you throw out your perfectly good computer sooner.
    - throwaway48476 2y ago
      Wait till you hear about the specter/meltdown speed performance patches.
tombert 2y ago
I have a T2 Macbook, which I generally like (though the thermals on the i9 aren't great), but I'm a little annoyed how hard it is to get Linux on there because of all the changes that Apple made to the architecture. I doubt I'll be getting updates of any kind on x86 Macbooks for much longer, so I wanted to install NixOS on here like I had on previous Macs, and I did manage to get it installed, but the support for the T2 hardware is, in my opinion, not usable for daily use. Very basic stuff like suspending doesn't work, the audio sounds like crap, sometimes booting simply doesn't work, and the discrete graphics card doesn't work. I don't blame the community for this, obviously. These are hard problems, and Apple worked pretty hard to make it difficult to actually sideload other operating systems on here. It's annoying that in another year or so, this computer might become increasingly less secure, because updates will cease. I should probably just buy a Framework at this point and sell this Mac while it still has some street value.
- 95014_refugee 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - tombert 2y ago
    I should clarify, bad wording on my end. I don’t think Apple made the T2 chip specifically to make Linux harder to install, just that they changed a bunch of stuff that made it harder to install another OS. Linux being hard to install was incidental, but I don’t think it was an explicit goal at Apple to make it difficult.
  - froddd 2y ago
    I’m not sure why this is getting downvoted. It’s perfectly reasonable to assume that the difficulty in side loading another OS is incidental, rather than designed. A citation would help support the opposite assumption made above.
    - thebruce87m 2y ago
      When it comes to Apple, perfectly reasonable people throw logic to the wind to come up with the most ridiculous theories. It’s annoying as it detracts from actual real conversations.
MBCook 2y ago
This was interesting. When reading something like this I can’t help but wonder what the big PC makers do, but figuring that out seems like it would be pretty daunting given the large number of models even a single vendor makes. Having so few models, plus firmware updates in the OS, probably made figuring this out so much easier than it would be in PC land. Also: poor 2019 iMac. It’s a nice model but came out right before the Apple Silicon transition. It’s lifetime was never going to be what it could have been.
- bunnyman 2y ago
  Same with the 2019 16" MacBook Pro with Intel i9 processor. I switched to a M1 Max 16" MacBook in 2022 and use the Intel one with Windows 10 installed on Bootcamp.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  >Also: poor 2019 iMac. It’s a nice model but came out right before the Apple Silicon transition. There was nothing stopping Apple from supporting it far longer. It's not like they're a start-up short on cash with limited budgets. It's their own HW for Pete's sake, not someone else's like Microsoft or Linux has to.
  - dialup_sounds 2y ago
    It's still supported.
    - hu3 2y ago
      Probably not for long. 2017s stopped being supported last year 2019s are on the chopping block.
      - tpmoney 2y ago
        Apple's hardware support timelines are 5 years from last sale date for "vintage" status, and 7 years for "obsolete" status. One should probably assume that firmware support especially and possibly software support will follow similar timelines.
Lukas_Skywalker 2y ago
Slightly related to this is a software called OpenCore Legacy Patcher [1]. It allows people to install newer macOS versions on older hardware. I don't know if the firmware updates are included though, maybe they aren't. I recently installed High Sierra on a MacBook Pro from 2011, and it works flawlessly. [1] https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/ https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/
- jasomill 2y ago
  AFAIK, installing/updating unsupported OS versions via OCLP doesn't update firmware. It certainly hasn't on my MacPro6,1 running Sonoma (have 478, current is 481); the workaround is a PITA (Monterey only updates firmware if installed on the internal SSD, so I either need to buy a spare or backup / clean install / restore) and probably not worth the trouble. Other than this, OCLP + Sonoma on the MacPro6,1 is fantastic.
- raffraffraff 2y ago
  Interesting! I have a 2014 MBP that runs a pretty ambient version of Band Camp. I'll see if there's anything I can do to remedy that!
ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
One of my low-end test Macs is a 2012, 11-inch Air. Still works great, but is capped at Catalina. I’ll have to check when it got its last update. I use it as a Zoom machine, and it still runs the latest version of that app, just fine. I have a first-gen iPhone Xs Max, that I’m using to test my software on iOS18. I test iOS16, on an iPhone 8 Plus. I also have an original SE, but it’s capped at iOS15, so I don’t test against it, anymore (except when I want to test really tight screen layouts). Apple kit does tend to last.
- captn3m0 2y ago
  Maybe OpenCore could help: https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/MODELS.html#macbook-air https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/MODELS.ht...
  - ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
    That is a cool project. I wouldn't use it for testing my software, though, as it's a bit too "edgy" for that, but it is a great way to keep your old kit going.

88 points by zdw 2y ago

Great article and nice blog layout. 8 years seems like long enough. Did you actually buy 40 macbooks from different eras?

brcmthrowaway 2y ago
[flagged]
klausa 2y ago
The data was probably extracted from the macOS update files.
pram 2y ago
He makes an app that tells you if your system is on all of the current patches so he presumably already had the data.

tedunangst 2y ago

After a year or so, I'd expect firmware stability to level off.

timetopay 2y ago
Unfortunately, (or fortunately depending on how you look at it), new security issues tend to be found over a device's lifespan.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
  I'm beginning to think that "security" is just a way to make you throw out your perfectly good computer sooner.
  - throwaway48476 2y ago
    Wait till you hear about the specter/meltdown speed performance patches.

tombert 2y ago

I have a T2 Macbook, which I generally like (though the thermals on the i9 aren't great), but I'm a little annoyed how hard it is to get Linux on there because of all the changes that Apple made to the architecture. I doubt I'll be getting updates of any kind on x86 Macbooks for much longer, so I wanted to install NixOS on here like I had on previous Macs, and I did manage to get it installed, but the support for the T2 hardware is, in my opinion, not usable for daily use. Very basic stuff like suspending doesn't work, the audio sounds like crap, sometimes booting simply doesn't work, and the discrete graphics card doesn't work. I don't blame the community for this, obviously. These are hard problems, and Apple worked pretty hard to make it difficult to actually sideload other operating systems on here. It's annoying that in another year or so, this computer might become increasingly less secure, because updates will cease. I should probably just buy a Framework at this point and sell this Mac while it still has some street value.

95014_refugee 2y ago
[flagged]
- tombert 2y ago
  I should clarify, bad wording on my end. I don’t think Apple made the T2 chip specifically to make Linux harder to install, just that they changed a bunch of stuff that made it harder to install another OS. Linux being hard to install was incidental, but I don’t think it was an explicit goal at Apple to make it difficult.
- froddd 2y ago
  I’m not sure why this is getting downvoted. It’s perfectly reasonable to assume that the difficulty in side loading another OS is incidental, rather than designed. A citation would help support the opposite assumption made above.
  - thebruce87m 2y ago
    When it comes to Apple, perfectly reasonable people throw logic to the wind to come up with the most ridiculous theories. It’s annoying as it detracts from actual real conversations.

MBCook 2y ago

This was interesting. When reading something like this I can’t help but wonder what the big PC makers do, but figuring that out seems like it would be pretty daunting given the large number of models even a single vendor makes. Having so few models, plus firmware updates in the OS, probably made figuring this out so much easier than it would be in PC land. Also: poor 2019 iMac. It’s a nice model but came out right before the Apple Silicon transition. It’s lifetime was never going to be what it could have been.

bunnyman 2y ago
Same with the 2019 16" MacBook Pro with Intel i9 processor. I switched to a M1 Max 16" MacBook in 2022 and use the Intel one with Windows 10 installed on Bootcamp.
Rinzler89 2y ago
>Also: poor 2019 iMac. It’s a nice model but came out right before the Apple Silicon transition. There was nothing stopping Apple from supporting it far longer. It's not like they're a start-up short on cash with limited budgets. It's their own HW for Pete's sake, not someone else's like Microsoft or Linux has to.
- dialup_sounds 2y ago
  It's still supported.
  - hu3 2y ago
    Probably not for long. 2017s stopped being supported last year 2019s are on the chopping block.
    - tpmoney 2y ago
      Apple's hardware support timelines are 5 years from last sale date for "vintage" status, and 7 years for "obsolete" status. One should probably assume that firmware support especially and possibly software support will follow similar timelines.

Lukas_Skywalker 2y ago

Slightly related to this is a software called OpenCore Legacy Patcher [1]. It allows people to install newer macOS versions on older hardware. I don't know if the firmware updates are included though, maybe they aren't. I recently installed High Sierra on a MacBook Pro from 2011, and it works flawlessly. [1] https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/ https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/

jasomill 2y ago
AFAIK, installing/updating unsupported OS versions via OCLP doesn't update firmware. It certainly hasn't on my MacPro6,1 running Sonoma (have 478, current is 481); the workaround is a PITA (Monterey only updates firmware if installed on the internal SSD, so I either need to buy a spare or backup / clean install / restore) and probably not worth the trouble. Other than this, OCLP + Sonoma on the MacPro6,1 is fantastic.
raffraffraff 2y ago
Interesting! I have a 2014 MBP that runs a pretty ambient version of Band Camp. I'll see if there's anything I can do to remedy that!

ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago

One of my low-end test Macs is a 2012, 11-inch Air. Still works great, but is capped at Catalina. I’ll have to check when it got its last update. I use it as a Zoom machine, and it still runs the latest version of that app, just fine. I have a first-gen iPhone Xs Max, that I’m using to test my software on iOS18. I test iOS16, on an iPhone 8 Plus. I also have an original SE, but it’s capped at iOS15, so I don’t test against it, anymore (except when I want to test really tight screen layouts). Apple kit does tend to last.

captn3m0 2y ago
Maybe OpenCore could help: https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/MODELS.html#macbook-air https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/MODELS.ht...
- ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
  That is a cool project. I wouldn't use it for testing my software, though, as it's a bit too "edgy" for that, but it is a great way to keep your old kit going.