8 ms·
Declaring 'Crisis,' South Korean Firms Tell Managers to Work 6 Days a Week
- soared 2y agohttps://archive.is/yNQTw https://archive.is/yNQTw
- soared 2y agoDoes executives working more hours for a company like Samsung increase revenue or reduce costs? I’m not an Econ experts but the economic trends in the article point to situations out of the companies control that likely won’t be solved by better strategy. Although I say this, knowing my employer has poor strategy and more man-hours might help. What would help more though is consultants.
- chii 2y ago> Some people in South Korean business are predicting that lower-ranked employees and managers at smaller companies will feel pressure to follow suit. might be the way to pressure the rest of the company to follow suit, according to the article.
- sickofparadox 2y agoSurely making people appear to be busy for another day plus unpaid overtime will make the company more profitable!
- duxup 2y agoAn executive or even just regular managers working more sounds like a recipe for busywork and managers excessively looking over the shoulders of ICs. The result potentially being even less productivity.
- causal 2y agoYup. I remember when COVID lockdowns hit and everyone started working from home, my company suddenly had a zillion new initiatives and projects that appeared out of thin air and we were all busier than ever. Not more productive though. My theory was that sending all the managers home opened their schedules considerably and so they coped with the emptiness by generating new work.
- lpapez 2y agoSimilar story. Suddenly when starting WFH the management required detailed time tracking and summaries of each day. Somehow tracking productivity was not seen as neccessary when we were all sitting in a downtown office scrolling through Reddit with our headphones on, but it became a top priority when we started doing the same thing from home.
- Sheeny96 2y agoAnd this is in a culture where busy work is rampant anyway. You can be sat in the office 12 hours a day doing nothing, so long as you are there and seen to be working.
- acedTrex 2y agoThe point is not to be productive, the point is to LOOK like you are productive. its corporate virtual signaling
- hunglee2 2y agoIt is a crisis but the solution in the 1960's will not be the solution in the 2020's. RoK could not afford to lose the China market, but they have and there really is no replacement.
- GeoAtreides 2y agobet this will do wonders for the country with literally the lowest fertility rate in the world some cultures really have a death wish
- moffkalast 2y ago"Sure our country collapsed, but for a moment we made great profits for the shareholders."
- boxed 2y agoNot even that, they'll just have full offices.
- toomuchtodo 2y agoGreece is doing the same. Capitalism is not going to reconfigure itself pleasantly as the productive labor cohort perpetually compresses. https://www.npr.org/2024/07/05/nx-s1-5027839/greece-six-day-workweek-law https://www.npr.org/2024/07/05/nx-s1-5027839/greece-six-day-... https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jul/01/greece-introduces-growth-oriented-six-day-working-week https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jul/01/greece...
- ordinaryradical 2y agoThe irony here being that if you have more free time and more social safety net, having more kids becomes easier, hence you grow your consumer market and labor force. I wonder what a 4-day work week would do to birth rates… Maybe falling fertility is the true capitalist death spiral?
- HPsquared 2y agoAren't they being crushed by social welfare costs though, at the end of the day? It's not a 1-dimensional thing. Expensive pensions, healthcare etc extracted from the working age population.
- loufe 2y agoIt's a big of a catch-22 in the sense that being required to work all those extra hours will undoubtedly have a negative impact on folks' real and perceived ability to support children, even if they want them.
- brohee 2y agoThat sure will help with the Korean demographic crisis, they'll be fucking like rabbits after those long days. And they can't wait to give the same future to their children...
- Qem 2y agoWonder if people becoming even more overworked than what they already are will manage to drop the fertility rate in SK from ~0.7 to ~0.5.
- HPsquared 2y agoFunnily enough this is one of the only areas NK is doing better than SK. It's quite an important one..
- avisser 2y ago0.5 is so wild. Gen1: 100 people: 50 men + 50 women; 50 women have 25 babies Gen2: 26 people: 13 men + 12 women (for math); 12 women have 6 babies Gen3: 6 people So 100 people end up having 6 total grandkids between all of them. In the US, you hear about Boomer grandparents who have at least 10 grandchildren.
- Balgair 2y agoI was going to say that the math was off by 2, but nope, you're right. Fertility rate is based on each woman, not on a couple. Even if they kept the 0.81 rate that they are on, then you'd get: Gen1: 100 people: 50 men + 50 women; 50 women have 40 babies (40.5, but lest round to just 40) Gen2: 40 people: 20 men + 20 women; 20 women have 16 babies Gen3: 16 people Given that the current average age of a woman at the time of her first birth in SK is 33 years old (!?!?!), you'd expect the 100 people of SK to be just 16 people somewhere near 2090. Meaning that it's current population of ~52M goes to ~8M in ~70 years. An 84% reduction in 66 years, or 1.28% per year. And it looks only like it'll get worse for them. I can't think of any war or plague or natural disaster or famine that has ever done such a number to a population of that size over that long of a time. Granted, that hasn't happened yet. Still, whatever the hell is happening to them is something to be avoided like a war or a famine or a plague.
- onychomys 2y agoIn my admittedly non-representative experience, having more managers around is definitely a now-you-have-two-problems situation.
- mewpmewp2 2y agoI mean, there's the 1999 documentary about this...
- justin_oaks 2y agoFor those that are wondering what this "documentary" is, I'm going to assume the movie "Office Space".
- duxup 2y agoI once worked tech support for a company that made fancy routers. I got a call from a reasonably high placed sales rep who was upset I hadn't contacted his customer. I had to tell him: "That ticket is a P3 and I currently have 3 P1s, 5 P2s and I don't know how many other tickets." He asked I make his ticket a P1 (he had the authority to do so). Hour later he called back to find out what we had done, the answer was "nothing". Again I had to explain: "I have 4 P1s, 5 P2s and I don't know how many other tickets." It's amazing how little people understand / care to understand that other people have work to do too...
- lvspiff 2y agoLiving the same thing here and keep getting told it seems like we aren't "finishing" anything and projects seem to just drone on and on. Well when you keep introducing things as "high priority" and "urgent" it means something has to drop off the list (even if it doesn't "officially") however in his brain that can't be true.
- BobaFloutist 2y agoIn terms of what's best for the customers and the business, of course I understand your call. In terms of self-preservation and your quality of life, I'm surprised you got that call and proceeded to take no action on his priority for an hour.
- vundercind 2y agoDoes someone have an OKR to lower hourly productivity? I doubt this will accomplish much more than that.
- shermantanktop 2y agoSounds like they used to work 7 days a week, and 20 years ago the country attempted 5 days a week. So this is not an increase but a partial return…which is bonkers. It causes me to reflect, once again, that what we consider normal is somewhat arbitrary, and may serve someone else’s needs better than it does our own.
- fny 2y agoIn theory, this would allow you to keep more people employed since you're paying less per head. It's a form of "labor redistribution" if you will.
- warkdarrior 2y agoIt's funny, people make the same argument in favor of 4-day workweeks. So, according to this argument, bot 4-day and 6-day workweeks will lead to more employment! Anything but 5 days, it seems.
- 6510 2y agoWhen calculating employment I wondered if half a day per week should count as employed. My conclusion was that it should count, but as 1/10 employed. If the normal work week is defined as 4 days and people work 6 anyway we could count them as 6/4 employed. If people work 6 days while 5 is considered normal in the rest of the world they would work 6/5. With 5 days nothing really changes, it is hard to argue something improved without changing anything. I do imagine that managers are a major source of counterproductivity, giving them extra shifts would create more work, perhaps even jobs.
- johnnyanmac 2y agoI have yet to read any formal literature that 6 day work weeks lead to better anything. You get a short term (3-4 week) production boost that very quickly tapers off. But business seem to be stuck with "butt in seat" age mentality, so they aren't responding rationally to this
- supertrope 2y ago
- headcanon 2y agoIs anyone able to contextualize this better? What crisis are they responding to? TFA mentions "sluggish business" and a looming demographic crisis, while labor groups call BS on the messaging. Is there anything really going on or is this just a "feels" thing on behalf of leadership?
- nekitamo 2y agoThe world has entered a mild recession, and many company leaders are panicking because they don’t know what to do. Their gut reaction is to “look busy” and overwork. Locally in Silicon Valley, many companies I interact with seem to be doing the same thing.
- 77pt77 2y ago> Their gut reaction is to “look busy” As americans says: "motion creates emotion!"
- AnotherGoodName 2y agoI feel like this is a response to chinas rise. The west has a lot of inefficiencies that were never really tested before. Think ceos paying themselves huge amounts for short term thinking (Boeing), a lot of people living off generational wealth and not needing to contribute meaningfully, many examples of rent seeking, governments subsidising big businesses in response to political donations, etc. Not that china doesn't have problems but it’s clear there’s now a competitor. The temptation here is to work the few who actually contribute even harder. Bump the working days, push retirement age up until it’s non-existent but whatever you do don’t touch the elite.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> this is a response to chinas rise Opposite. It’s being caused by China’s slowdown. China is Korea’s largest trading partner [1]. [1] https://wits.worldbank.org/countrysnapshot/en/KOR https://wits.worldbank.org/countrysnapshot/en/KOR
- deleted 2y ago
- InsideOutSanta 2y agoIs that another "please leave so we don't have to fire you" thing, like forcing people to come back to the office after the pandemic?
- seoulmetro 2y agoNo, it's a "we need the stock to rise for the stockholders this month so we're going to burn hard for no reason". Funnily enough Australia uses this very idea for terrorism. "We hear that terrorism threat may or may not be higher than yesterday." is a thing that Australian PMs do when things look bad or its a slow news day. They word it in such dumb ways as quote: "there is some extra terrorist chatter right now" [1]... People in power can use fear of things to look like they're doing more work. 1. https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/pm-warns-of-terrorist-chatter-post-siege/znylubh2e https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/pm-warns-of-terrorist-ch...
- xyzzy4747 2y agoMaybe they should increase the taxes on these firms and give extra money to people who produce 2 or more children.
- whatevaa 2y agoSouth Korea already spent massive amounts of money on this. Money alone won't solve this.
- gottorf 2y agoGlobally, there's a pretty clear negative correlation between GDP per capita and fertility rates.
- BobaFloutist 2y agoIt turns out that being pregnant and giving birth is, while a miracle and beautiful and fulfilling, kind of a horrifying, painful, unpleasant shitshow, and that given the choice, women will opt to do it an average of fewer than twice. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- snapcaster 2y agoTo kind of extrapolate from your claim, do you think high fertility rates and women's rights are opposed to eachother?
- BobaFloutist 2y agoYes, I absolutely think they are. I think the short-term solution is for countries to relax immigration policies (so that places with weaker women's rights can send their surplus population to places with stronger women's rights), the mid term solution is to take the burden of childcare off women so that the people making the decision about whether or not to have kids aren't the same people getting punished for having kids, the long term solution is to sink a ton of money and resources into obstetrics research to make pregnancy and childbirth as pain-free as possible, and the super long term is to hope that that research lands us with an artificial womb.
- karaterobot 2y agoSo, who are the managers managing on their extra days in the office? If that day is just about writing documents and emails, that could be done at home (far from ideal, but preferable to working an extra day). If they're just meeting with other managers, does that take an entire work day every week? > Labor groups claim the “crisis” and “emergency” measures are mostly for show. Without further information, I think I agree with the labor groups on this one.
- TrackerFF 2y agoSame South Korea that suffers from one of the lowest fertility/birth rates in the world? No better way to motivate young people to start a family, than to force them to work even more. Yes, I know this said "managers" - but let's be real, if your manager works 6 days a week, so are probably you too, in a country with work culture like SK.
- lumost 2y agoLine managers have a variety of means to motivate employees, if they are told to work 6 days a week. They will mostly imply that their team should as well. Even in cases where its illegal for them to do so.
- toomuchtodo 2y agohttps://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/biz/2024/07/602_377222.html https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/biz/2024/07/602_377222.html > The number of young Koreans who opted out of the job market in May was recorded at about 400,000, the highest since 2020. Despite the government's measures announced last year to integrate this group into the labor market, their number increased again after nine months as the number of full-time jobs decreased. > However, experts believe that such policies have their limitations if there aren't enough quality jobs for the 15-29 age group. > "The impact of high interest rates and reduced investment following the pandemic has led to a decrease in quality jobs desired by young people," Kim Gwang-suk, head of research at the Institute for Korean Economy & Industry, said. "This situation has resulted in a decline in regular employment and a loss of job-seeking motivation among young people." If you are older, you are likely trapped in your job and must do. If you are younger, you are likely not, and can opt out. Based on trajectories, what do we think will happen to more young folks who age into working age? Grind? Or opt out? Consider how this impacts total fertility rate, at a time when South Korea has set a record for lowest in the world. https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/south-koreas-fertility-rate-dropped-fresh-record-low-2023-2024-02-28/ https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/south-koreas-fert... > South Korea's fertility rate, already the world's lowest, continued its dramatic decline in 2023, as women concerned about their career advancement and the financial cost of raising children decided to delay childbirth or to not have babies. > The average number of expected babies for a South Korean woman during her reproductive life fell to a record low of 0.72 from 0.78 in 2022, data from Statistics Korea showed on Wednesday.
- theGnuMe 2y agoHow do you say "less is more" in Korean?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- lvspiff 2y agoIt seems to always step from that CEO, or chief, or VP that works 7 days a week in some capacity. Maybe its an hour or two on the weekends to send some email about an idea they had or something they want to see but its enough that those below them feel they have to respond to that higher up so they work another 2-4 hours to account for him working those 1-2. Then it comes down to managers and tech leads who have to work half or the entire day sometimes to make up for that one chief thinking their 1 hour of work was enough to raise a question that will solve an issue.
- BobaFloutist 2y agoIt's kind of the same principle as "on call", if you want someone to be consistently available for periodic, unpredictable events, you have to have them available all the time.
- lvspiff 2y agoI left a company because they started to consider "exempt" employees as "on-call" 24/7. They felt like adding personal numbers to OpsGenie and other alerting systems was perfectly reasonable. "Exempt" employee status is a real disservice in the technical field . With uptime and security issues constantly being identified and requiring immediate intervention its really allowed employers to exploit salaried employees to work extra hours without compensation.
- matrix87 2y agoNot sure why South Koreans don't try to get out, since education is super strong they could probably move to USA or some other country with more money, easier working culture, and relatively lower housing costs
- 23B1 2y agoWith respect, this is luxury thinking. "Just leave" is not a strong argument for anyone except detached/atomized Westerners who have no culture/family/tribe to be a part of anyway.
- matrix87 2y agoMost of the people who did this recently (at least in SV) aren't westerners, they're people from different parts of Asia who want better economic opportunities. Doesn't have anything to do with western "alienation" or whatever you're on about
- 23B1 2y ago"at least in SV" I rest my case.
- SnooSux 2y agoI can't speak to attitudes, but when I was in grad school years ago, Koreans were very well represented in my program. There were fewer Korean students than Chinese but more than Indian. Generally they do well in both coursework and research so there's likely at least some opportunity to stay in the states, assuming they don't have obligations back home.
- rcarmo 2y agoOne of my friends works at a technology-adjacent (i.e., technology enabled, but not technology-focused) company that was recently acquired by a Korean chaebol. They put in place a Korean-American country manager who was aghast at how much vacation time and public holidays Europeans have. The rift between the US and Europe is already sizable, but we’re talking major culture shock here. Anecdotally, he was also a bit amazed when people started leaving the office before nightfall.