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The rules I have for myself when giving advice are: 1. Unsolicited advice is always criticism. 2. LISTEN TO THEIR ACTUAL PROBLEM ALL THE WAY. 3. Never tell s

The rules I have for myself when giving advice are: 1. Unsolicited advice is always criticism. 2. LISTEN TO THEIR ACTUAL PROBLEM ALL THE WAY. 3. Never tell someone what they should do, tell them what you would do in that situation. 4. Remember that the purpose of giving advice is just to illuminate options, not to have someone follow what you recommend to the letter. 5. As the advice giver understand that you could be the one who is wrong. It's never about trying to convince someone to do what you want, it's about showing them an option and letting them decide.

throwawayq3423 2y ago
> Never tell someone what they should do, tell them what you would do in that situation. This is great. It's empathetic and much more likely to be heard and received.
- meken 2y ago
  I often find myself taking this approach, but it’s still manipulative because it’s just me masking the fact that I’m really just trying to tell them what to do.
  - radus 2y ago
    I guess then you've got to abstract one level further and formulate your advice as an allegory.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
    > just trying to tell them what to do If they disregard your advice and you don't criticize them for it, you are absolutely not telling them what to do. For what it's worth.
  - throwawayq3423 2y ago
    > manipulative It's not manipulative to use techniques that increase the chances of your advice being heard and followed, it's just good communication.
    - Jensson 2y ago
      Depends on your motives, people would absolutely call it manipulative if your motives were to make their lives worse to benefit yourself. Advice aren't always good for people.
      - throwawayq3423 2y ago
        > if your motives were to make their lives worse to benefit yourself I guess I made an assumption that wasn't the case. Most people that have malign intentions aren't curious about these topics enough to discuss them openly. "persuasion" gets a bad rap because most people assume you are persuading someone from a good place to bad. The opposite occurs often as well.
        Delk 2y ago
        > "persuasion" gets a bad rap because most people assume you are persuading someone from a good place to bad. The opposite occurs often as well. Persuasion can be questionable even if it's not malicious. People can persuade others for selfish reasons, or to push their own desires, without it necessarily making the other person worse. But few of us like the feeling of being persuaded for someone else's benefit regardless. Or, more relevantly in the context of advice, some people often like to give advice or push ideas that they themselves like, or with which they have good experiences, or which suit their thinking and personality. But the idea might be unsuited to the other person's situation, needs, desires or personality. Persuasion tactics or social tricks don't make that better, even if the motive isn't malicious.
        throwawayq3423 2y ago
        A therapist needs to persuade a troubled person to change their behavior and mindset. I don't know why you keep focusing on the malign example, everything on earth has good and bad application.
    - lmm 2y ago
      Yes it is. If you say something that is less true because it's more likely to be followed, that's very clearly manipulation.
  - intended 2y ago
    I think you have a lot to unpack here, for yourself. You seem to have set up two purposes in conflict with each other. On one hand you are telling people what to do, nicely. On the other, you recognize the intent of such a statement is to share an experience to see if it fits their situation. The only person who can know the difference, most of the time, is you. After all, If your statement is helpful, people will use it. So is it an issue of you being insincere ? Or is it an issue if you being confused if you are being helpful but in reality coercive ? If it’s insincerity, then do what makes you happier with your statements. If it’s coercive, then give people a choice - let them know your concerns, ensure that they have all the information to own the choice.
  - bawolff 2y ago
    There is a big difference between giving advice and giving orders. If you are (e.g.) someone's manager, and you need them to do X, then you should say that. There is nothing worse than being unsure if something is a suggestion or a mandatory "suggestion".
    - ryanmcbride 2y ago
      Absolutely, advice isn't the same as instruction. Totally different set of rules.
  - watwut 2y ago
    It is not manipulative if you actually mean it that way. People get insulted over others not taking their advice, reacting with "I told you so" or repeating it and trying to force others. Meanwhile, those who are just saying what they would do are not invested into what other person will do, they state what they would do and move on. It is not just phrasing, it is also mindset that shows up in your other interactions.
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- unbalancedevh 2y ago
  It sounds good, but often still might be wrong. "That situation" includes details that still might not be clear. It's hard to communicate an entire frame of mind, and you might find that you'd in fact do something very different if you were confronted with it.
  - digging 2y ago
    Telling someone what you'd do in that situation is also another way of sussing out context they haven't told you yet. As an extremely simplified example: "I'd probably remove that piece right there first. It doesn't appear to fit with the rest." "That piece is holding together this whole subsystem, I'm not going to remove it."
deleted 2y ago
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crngefest 2y ago
If someone tells me what to do I instinctively do the exact opposite or at least have the overwhelming urge to
- graybeardhacker 2y ago
  Don't go read about Oppositional Defiance Disorder.
  - kayodelycaon 2y ago
    ODD has some really questionable aspects. Especially considering half of children diagnosed with it are also ADHD. I highly suspect the issue is more with the authority figures not knowing how to handle neurodivergence than the children themselves. Many people tend to do the opposite of what they are told to do. In an individualist culture, this is normal.
    - lazide 2y ago
      A step back - I’d consider the possibility too that it’s a learned behavior where they have received enough pain in the past doing what they were told, so literally have been conditioned to do the opposite of what they were told. And/or, never got attention or positive feedback when doing what they were told - but got lots of attention when they did what they were told not to do. Not necessarily positive, but something is better than nothing. Which isn’t necessarily at odds with what you’re saying.
      - throwaway22032 2y ago
        As someone who has some of the traits this is absolutely it. When you spend your childhood being told by people to do things that will lead to, well, almost certainly being poor and having a shit life, you learn to just ignore advice and do the opposite. It is really hard to unlearn this in adulthood. I tend to get by by judging the person giving the advice e.g. if they seem successful then they are more likely to be correct than if they are not.
asdfman123 2y ago
The most common problem with advice is that people give it before what they understand the real problem. If someone tells you their car is broken, it's not helpful to tell them that they should get it fixed, because maybe the REAL problem is they don't have the money for it and are ashamed to tell you. (And maybe the solution to that is more complicated than you think, too.) For advice to be remotely useful, you have to first put in the time to understand the real problem. It requires a lot of patience and requires you suspend judgment. If you're not willing to do that, then don't give advice!
- nuancebydefault 2y ago
  This reminds me of my inlaws telling me their car's engine needed finetuning but they did not have the money to spend at it. After a month or so the car's engine broke down 'suddenly' in a total loss fashion. Somehow they managed to buy another car. I never understood the ways of their prioritization schemes and probably never will. PS of course I gave them the obvious advice. It feels that even though they never buy new cars like I do, they still manage to spend more money on cars then I do.
- tbrownaw 2y ago
  > If someone tells you their car is broken, it's not helpful to tell them that they should get it fixed, because maybe the REAL problem is they don't have the money for it and are ashamed to tell you. (And maybe the solution to that is more complicated than you think, too.) Maybe they feel that skipping the social event you're pushing because their car is broken is more socially acceptable than skipping because they, er, really need to shampoo their cat that evening.
hamasho 2y ago
> 1. Unsolicited advice is always criticism. This is important to me. Especially when I become a senior, my opinion without much thought can be taken as a criticism and make others irritated or insecure.
- XorNot 2y ago
  Also this is what all advice sounds like to new parents. If you want to be an ally to someone who's just had a baby, don't give unsolicited advice - they're hearing enough of it from the numerous people who want to talk all about "future problems you definitely need to avoid now" to someone who hasn't had more then 2 hours of uninterrupted sleep.
  - Aeolun 2y ago
    Does that really happen? In my experience parents giving advice to other parents generally sound like “I don’t really know what I’m doing, nor your child, but this worked for us.” The wild variety of advice is a good indication there is no true answer.
    - ryanmcbride 2y ago
      I'm not a parent so I can't say for sure but I've listened to lots of my child-having friends complain about the older members of their family constantly giving "advice" that is actually just veiled defensiveness and projection.
efitz 2y ago
> LISTEN TO THEIR ACTUAL PROBLEM ALL THE WAY. This is the key. People want to be heard, and also people don't necessarily divulge detail in the order you expect. The very last thing that they say may completely invalidate the solution you've been building in your mind as they've been speaking. Back in the mid 90's I was working support for Windows NT Server. In my area we had our heavy hitters- the issues that came up several times a week- and we all knew them inside out. One day a paying support customer called and within 30 seconds of him starting to talk, I knew exactly what the problem was. I let him talk but after 5 minutes I was getting bored of minesweeper and thought maybe he'd appreciate me fixing his issue. I interrupted him and say, "hey, let's try this". Sure enough, within 2 minutes his issue was fixed. We ended the call politely and I congratulated myself on getting him to relief so quickly. A couple weeks later we got our support survey results for the month. That customer had been surveyed and was nice enough to write something other than just give a star rating or whatever. I will never forget what he wrote: "I don't feel like the engineer listened to me before he solved my problem." That was a lot to unpack at the time- at first I was frustrated because he didn't give me a top score when I knocked it out of the park in my own estimation, but after a lot of reflection I've taken that lesson to heart. That person's short comment made me a better person, certainly better at support but more empathic in general, and I owe them a debt that I can't repay but will pay forward.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  The problem here is that different people have different expectations. If you can fix my problem in 30 seconds and I don't have to waste 5+ minutes of my time describing the problem when you've already seen it and know the fix, I would prefer that you just stop me and fix it. However, that other guy obviously doesn't care about saving time, and wants to waste your time and his by venting and a known issue. Unfortunately, there's no way to know which type of service a customer wants unless you already know that customer well.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  But it's tech support. There are lots of situations where listening is the priority, and I'm glad you learned something for everyday life, but limiting excess explanation in a minimally rude way is a good thing for tech support. And allowing an extra 5 minutes is more than enough for being minimally rude.
darth_avocado 2y ago
> Unsolicited advice is always criticism. It's a balance. Sometimes people ARE looking for advice, but do not present it that way. So if you don't provide your input, you come across as an a**le. Figuring out whether that's the case can be tricky based on your relationship with the person.
deleted 2y ago
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andrei_says_ 2y ago
These are gold. Worth a printout next to the monitor. Especially number one.
- ryanmcbride 2y ago
  That means a lot thank you :)
bankcust08385 2y ago
> 1. Unsolicited advice is always criticism. That's an extreme and catastrophizing take. There is often hidden feedback buried in most criticism. Feedback is gold. Take it all with a grain of salt but don't be so arrogant as to discount unsolicited feedback entirely.
tomcam 2y ago
I abide by these principles precisely. Didn’t always. I have a couple extras. 6. On the rare chance I offer advice without being asked, I always frame it as “here’s what I learned the hard way. Do you mind if I tell you how I screwed up in a similar situation?” 7. And then I hasten to tell the other party I won’t be offended if they ignore what I said. Unless it’s the fact that Scarlett Johansson deserved a much much better script for the Black Widow movie and deserves a Mulligan, which is an undeniable fact. Mostly though I just listen because people almost never actually want advice, but they’re often in need of a good listener.

throwawayq3423 2y ago

> Never tell someone what they should do, tell them what you would do in that situation. This is great. It's empathetic and much more likely to be heard and received.

meken 2y ago
I often find myself taking this approach, but it’s still manipulative because it’s just me masking the fact that I’m really just trying to tell them what to do.
- radus 2y ago
  I guess then you've got to abstract one level further and formulate your advice as an allegory.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
  > just trying to tell them what to do If they disregard your advice and you don't criticize them for it, you are absolutely not telling them what to do. For what it's worth.
- throwawayq3423 2y ago
  > manipulative It's not manipulative to use techniques that increase the chances of your advice being heard and followed, it's just good communication.
  - Jensson 2y ago
    Depends on your motives, people would absolutely call it manipulative if your motives were to make their lives worse to benefit yourself. Advice aren't always good for people.
    - throwawayq3423 2y ago
      > if your motives were to make their lives worse to benefit yourself I guess I made an assumption that wasn't the case. Most people that have malign intentions aren't curious about these topics enough to discuss them openly. "persuasion" gets a bad rap because most people assume you are persuading someone from a good place to bad. The opposite occurs often as well.
      - Delk 2y ago
        > "persuasion" gets a bad rap because most people assume you are persuading someone from a good place to bad. The opposite occurs often as well. Persuasion can be questionable even if it's not malicious. People can persuade others for selfish reasons, or to push their own desires, without it necessarily making the other person worse. But few of us like the feeling of being persuaded for someone else's benefit regardless. Or, more relevantly in the context of advice, some people often like to give advice or push ideas that they themselves like, or with which they have good experiences, or which suit their thinking and personality. But the idea might be unsuited to the other person's situation, needs, desires or personality. Persuasion tactics or social tricks don't make that better, even if the motive isn't malicious.
        throwawayq3423 2y ago
        A therapist needs to persuade a troubled person to change their behavior and mindset. I don't know why you keep focusing on the malign example, everything on earth has good and bad application.
  - lmm 2y ago
    Yes it is. If you say something that is less true because it's more likely to be followed, that's very clearly manipulation.
- intended 2y ago
  I think you have a lot to unpack here, for yourself. You seem to have set up two purposes in conflict with each other. On one hand you are telling people what to do, nicely. On the other, you recognize the intent of such a statement is to share an experience to see if it fits their situation. The only person who can know the difference, most of the time, is you. After all, If your statement is helpful, people will use it. So is it an issue of you being insincere ? Or is it an issue if you being confused if you are being helpful but in reality coercive ? If it’s insincerity, then do what makes you happier with your statements. If it’s coercive, then give people a choice - let them know your concerns, ensure that they have all the information to own the choice.
- bawolff 2y ago
  There is a big difference between giving advice and giving orders. If you are (e.g.) someone's manager, and you need them to do X, then you should say that. There is nothing worse than being unsure if something is a suggestion or a mandatory "suggestion".
  - ryanmcbride 2y ago
    Absolutely, advice isn't the same as instruction. Totally different set of rules.
- watwut 2y ago
  It is not manipulative if you actually mean it that way. People get insulted over others not taking their advice, reacting with "I told you so" or repeating it and trying to force others. Meanwhile, those who are just saying what they would do are not invested into what other person will do, they state what they would do and move on. It is not just phrasing, it is also mindset that shows up in your other interactions.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
unbalancedevh 2y ago
It sounds good, but often still might be wrong. "That situation" includes details that still might not be clear. It's hard to communicate an entire frame of mind, and you might find that you'd in fact do something very different if you were confronted with it.
- digging 2y ago
  Telling someone what you'd do in that situation is also another way of sussing out context they haven't told you yet. As an extremely simplified example: "I'd probably remove that piece right there first. It doesn't appear to fit with the rest." "That piece is holding together this whole subsystem, I'm not going to remove it."

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

crngefest 2y ago

If someone tells me what to do I instinctively do the exact opposite or at least have the overwhelming urge to

graybeardhacker 2y ago
Don't go read about Oppositional Defiance Disorder.
- kayodelycaon 2y ago
  ODD has some really questionable aspects. Especially considering half of children diagnosed with it are also ADHD. I highly suspect the issue is more with the authority figures not knowing how to handle neurodivergence than the children themselves. Many people tend to do the opposite of what they are told to do. In an individualist culture, this is normal.
  - lazide 2y ago
    A step back - I’d consider the possibility too that it’s a learned behavior where they have received enough pain in the past doing what they were told, so literally have been conditioned to do the opposite of what they were told. And/or, never got attention or positive feedback when doing what they were told - but got lots of attention when they did what they were told not to do. Not necessarily positive, but something is better than nothing. Which isn’t necessarily at odds with what you’re saying.
    - throwaway22032 2y ago
      As someone who has some of the traits this is absolutely it. When you spend your childhood being told by people to do things that will lead to, well, almost certainly being poor and having a shit life, you learn to just ignore advice and do the opposite. It is really hard to unlearn this in adulthood. I tend to get by by judging the person giving the advice e.g. if they seem successful then they are more likely to be correct than if they are not.

asdfman123 2y ago

The most common problem with advice is that people give it before what they understand the real problem. If someone tells you their car is broken, it's not helpful to tell them that they should get it fixed, because maybe the REAL problem is they don't have the money for it and are ashamed to tell you. (And maybe the solution to that is more complicated than you think, too.) For advice to be remotely useful, you have to first put in the time to understand the real problem. It requires a lot of patience and requires you suspend judgment. If you're not willing to do that, then don't give advice!

nuancebydefault 2y ago
This reminds me of my inlaws telling me their car's engine needed finetuning but they did not have the money to spend at it. After a month or so the car's engine broke down 'suddenly' in a total loss fashion. Somehow they managed to buy another car. I never understood the ways of their prioritization schemes and probably never will. PS of course I gave them the obvious advice. It feels that even though they never buy new cars like I do, they still manage to spend more money on cars then I do.
tbrownaw 2y ago
> If someone tells you their car is broken, it's not helpful to tell them that they should get it fixed, because maybe the REAL problem is they don't have the money for it and are ashamed to tell you. (And maybe the solution to that is more complicated than you think, too.) Maybe they feel that skipping the social event you're pushing because their car is broken is more socially acceptable than skipping because they, er, really need to shampoo their cat that evening.

hamasho 2y ago

> 1. Unsolicited advice is always criticism. This is important to me. Especially when I become a senior, my opinion without much thought can be taken as a criticism and make others irritated or insecure.

XorNot 2y ago
Also this is what all advice sounds like to new parents. If you want to be an ally to someone who's just had a baby, don't give unsolicited advice - they're hearing enough of it from the numerous people who want to talk all about "future problems you definitely need to avoid now" to someone who hasn't had more then 2 hours of uninterrupted sleep.
- Aeolun 2y ago
  Does that really happen? In my experience parents giving advice to other parents generally sound like “I don’t really know what I’m doing, nor your child, but this worked for us.” The wild variety of advice is a good indication there is no true answer.
  - ryanmcbride 2y ago
    I'm not a parent so I can't say for sure but I've listened to lots of my child-having friends complain about the older members of their family constantly giving "advice" that is actually just veiled defensiveness and projection.

efitz 2y ago

> LISTEN TO THEIR ACTUAL PROBLEM ALL THE WAY. This is the key. People want to be heard, and also people don't necessarily divulge detail in the order you expect. The very last thing that they say may completely invalidate the solution you've been building in your mind as they've been speaking. Back in the mid 90's I was working support for Windows NT Server. In my area we had our heavy hitters- the issues that came up several times a week- and we all knew them inside out. One day a paying support customer called and within 30 seconds of him starting to talk, I knew exactly what the problem was. I let him talk but after 5 minutes I was getting bored of minesweeper and thought maybe he'd appreciate me fixing his issue. I interrupted him and say, "hey, let's try this". Sure enough, within 2 minutes his issue was fixed. We ended the call politely and I congratulated myself on getting him to relief so quickly. A couple weeks later we got our support survey results for the month. That customer had been surveyed and was nice enough to write something other than just give a star rating or whatever. I will never forget what he wrote: "I don't feel like the engineer listened to me before he solved my problem." That was a lot to unpack at the time- at first I was frustrated because he didn't give me a top score when I knocked it out of the park in my own estimation, but after a lot of reflection I've taken that lesson to heart. That person's short comment made me a better person, certainly better at support but more empathic in general, and I owe them a debt that I can't repay but will pay forward.

shiroiushi 2y ago
The problem here is that different people have different expectations. If you can fix my problem in 30 seconds and I don't have to waste 5+ minutes of my time describing the problem when you've already seen it and know the fix, I would prefer that you just stop me and fix it. However, that other guy obviously doesn't care about saving time, and wants to waste your time and his by venting and a known issue. Unfortunately, there's no way to know which type of service a customer wants unless you already know that customer well.
Dylan16807 2y ago
But it's tech support. There are lots of situations where listening is the priority, and I'm glad you learned something for everyday life, but limiting excess explanation in a minimally rude way is a good thing for tech support. And allowing an extra 5 minutes is more than enough for being minimally rude.

darth_avocado 2y ago

> Unsolicited advice is always criticism. It's a balance. Sometimes people ARE looking for advice, but do not present it that way. So if you don't provide your input, you come across as an a**le. Figuring out whether that's the case can be tricky based on your relationship with the person.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

andrei_says_ 2y ago

These are gold. Worth a printout next to the monitor. Especially number one.

ryanmcbride 2y ago
That means a lot thank you :)

bankcust08385 2y ago

> 1. Unsolicited advice is always criticism. That's an extreme and catastrophizing take. There is often hidden feedback buried in most criticism. Feedback is gold. Take it all with a grain of salt but don't be so arrogant as to discount unsolicited feedback entirely.

tomcam 2y ago

I abide by these principles precisely. Didn’t always. I have a couple extras. 6. On the rare chance I offer advice without being asked, I always frame it as “here’s what I learned the hard way. Do you mind if I tell you how I screwed up in a similar situation?” 7. And then I hasten to tell the other party I won’t be offended if they ignore what I said. Unless it’s the fact that Scarlett Johansson deserved a much much better script for the Black Widow movie and deserves a Mulligan, which is an undeniable fact. Mostly though I just listen because people almost never actually want advice, but they’re often in need of a good listener.