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IRS collects milestone $1B in back taxes from high-wealth taxpayers
- gnabgib 2y agoDiscussion (60 points, 15 days ago, 92 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40939376 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40939376
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- anon291 2y agoOkay... That'll fund like what.. An hour of governance? Why more Americans Are not mad at the complete waste of our tax money is beyond me For a billion dollars, other countries are successfully building entire transit systems, high speed rails, other infrastructure, or running massive welfare programs. We should be getting so much more.
- edmundsauto 2y agoWe should receive much more value and yes the people who owe on taxes should pay much more than when it’s not enforced. All this fake patriotism in America. Pay your fucking taxes and you won’t be threaten by IRS efficiency.
- anon291 2y agoI'm not threatened by the IRS. I pay my taxes on time every year, and plan on doing so. I think it's your duty. But I'm also not a complete pushover and realize I should be getting more for them. We all should.
- toomuchtodo 2y agohttps://www.americanprogress.org/article/tax-cuts-are-primarily-responsible-for-the-increasing-debt-ratio/ https://www.americanprogress.org/article/tax-cuts-are-primar...
- AnthonyMouse 2y agoFederal Receipts as Percent of Gross Domestic Product: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S Basically stable since WWII, which is kind of nuts considering it's still only just below the level necessary for a World War, and on top of that real GDP per capita has increased, so this is a huge increase in taxation per capita over time even adjusted for inflation. And yet with a much smaller budget the WPA and so on did more, which does quite imply that the problem is government efficiency rather than government revenue.
- merrywhether 2y agoOr it implies that society and technology have advanced in the meantime, expanding the scope of what the government is expected to do. For instance, at the end of WWII we did not have the federal highway system but the nation is much better off for that on-going expenditure. Most government interaction is now possible online which requires expensive staff and infra to maintain, but is certainly an improvement over having to do everything in person. And to use your direct comparison, can you imagine what the data would look like if the US economy actually pivoted to a war footing with the existential urgency akin to that during WWII (which was vastly more expensive than WWI even)?
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago> For instance, at the end of WWII we did not have the federal highway system but the nation is much better off for that on-going expenditure. The federal highway budget is $60 billion. It probably isn't spending the money particularly efficiently, but it's also only 1% of the federal budget. > Most government interaction is now possible online which requires expensive staff and infra to maintain, but is certainly an improvement over having to do everything in person. Shouldn't this result in lower costs? You need a $100,000 system administrator instead of two dozen $40,000 clerks, but that doesn't sum to a larger number. > And to use your direct comparison, can you imagine what the data would look like if the US economy actually pivoted to a war footing with the existential urgency akin to that during WWII (which was vastly more expensive than WWI even)? It's not obvious that it would dramatically change, because the US already maintains an enormous standing army, and much of the other expenditures are in the nature of assistance for low income people, which would be displaced by those people getting drafted into the war, or obviated because they're meant to offset e.g. high rents, which would decline with local demand if 10% of the population left the continent to go fight in a foreign land.
- Glyptodon 2y agoIt's be nice if the two parties didn't have a goal of making bad policies to prove their points.
- bilbo0s 2y agoThey don’t. They make bad policy, to stay in power. Political ideologues nowadays generally have no points to make. They believe in whatever will keep them in power. That’s how we end up with a nation full of ‘conservatives’ who routinely outspend ‘liberals’. And we have a nation full of ‘liberals’ who ‘believe’ in increasing the power of the state.
- palmfacehn 2y agoMany are fed up with the status quo, the other portion seems intolerant of any criticism of state largess. As another comment has pointed out, those who approve of the state's spending and feel it is a good value are free to donate to the Treasury Dept. I imagine this wouldn't be so controversial if taxes were not so exorbitant, if the tax code was straightforward and if institutions were more inspiring of the public's confidence. Class warfare isn't an alternative to acknowledging these problems.
- danaris 2y ago"exorbitant" compared to what modern democracy...? Certainly not exorbitant compared to what they were here in the US in, say, the period post-WWII. Y'know, one of the biggest boom times in our nation's history, when we had massive innovation and growth of the middle class.
- palmfacehn 2y agoThe US has a unique foundational culture of individualist liberalism. It is hard to understand the modern context of the right to self-government without the American precedent. Many of the things we take for granted were created by this philosophy. To compare it to other "modern democracies" is to discount the unique tradition of the US. Compare America to America rather than expecting that the US adhere to the relatively more collectivist norms of other nations. The Gilded Age was an even more productive era in terms of growth and upward mobility, with no income taxes levied at the Federal level. It was the progressive era that brought an end to this prosperity and ushered in the IRS, the 3rd central bank and an increasing number of foreign conflicts. Further economic interventions brought about and prolonged the great depression. After WWII, much of the world's industrial base had been destroyed. Militaries funded by taxes destroyed productive capacity. Attributing this period of relative prosperity to the income tax would be seriously misguided. Instead you might have asked how much more successful the post-war economy would have been with lower taxes and less central planning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenue_Act_of_1913 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenue_Act_of_1913 > It also established a one percent tax on income above $3,000 per year; the tax affected approximately three percent of the population. https://taxfoundation.org/blog/independence-day-taxes-then-and-now/ https://taxfoundation.org/blog/independence-day-taxes-then-a... >Taxation in the United States in 1776 was incredibly different than what it is today. There were no income taxes, no corporate taxes, and no payroll taxes. Instead, the American Colonies (and to a larger extent, the British Crown) were primarily funded by tariffs and excise taxes. https://www.mountvernon.org/george-washington/colonial-life-today/early-american-economics-facts https://www.mountvernon.org/george-washington/colonial-life-... >The average tax rate in colonial America was between 1 and 1.5% And for that much the colonists fought a war for independence. The "modern democracies" you reach for would most likely not exist as such if not for that precedent.
- s1artibartfast 2y agoIt is extremely clear why when you look at the outlays. [1] 75%+ of revenue is spent on welfare of various kinds. https://www.cbo.gov/publication/59727 https://www.cbo.gov/publication/59727
- bobmcnamara 2y agoWhere are you seeing that? Or are you counting taxpayer funded and taxpayer paying programs as welfare?
- s1artibartfast 2y agoim counting everything. If the question is "what do we get for 4.5 trillion in taxes, and 6 trillion is spending", the answer is largely "welfare programs".
- merrywhether 2y agoIsn’t anything a government does ostensibly classified as working to improve collective welfare? That’s the basis of the social contract.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago"welfare" [1] is generally a distinct concept from "public goods" [2] Welfare is typically ment to mean policies to alleviate the hardships of poverty. These can be wealth transfers or socialized insurance policies to reduce the variability of outcomes. Public goods are services like roads, courts, or firemen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good_(economics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good_(economics)
- anon291 2y agoIn that case, neither Social Security and Medicare are welfare. Social Security is given to everyone regardless of income; so is Medicare.
- from-nibly 2y agoA reminder that taxes don't fund the government they curb inflation. The government funds itself by printing money and taking out loans.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> reminder that taxes don't fund the government they curb inflation. The government funds itself by printing money and taking out loans Sort of. Modern monetary theory ignores any stocks of money or money-like instruments at the government, focussing instead on flows. Spending and paying debt is inflationary, taxing and issuing debt deflationary. As an economic model it’s nice. As a policy framework in a democracy it’s nonsense. Practically nobody during the inflation scare proposed raising taxes to destroy cash.
- aldonius 2y agoAlso there is more than one government (and currency). And sometimes people would like to trade goods and services internationally...
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago> Practically nobody during the inflation scare proposed raising taxes to destroy cash. They did though, they just don't call it that because it's implicit in the existing tax system and happens without any legislative action. Capital gains tax includes a tax on inflation. If you own a $100 asset and its real value doesn't change but you have 10% inflation, its nominal value is now $110 and the next time you do a transaction the government will call this a $10 capital gain and collect tax on it, even though the real gain was $0.
- chii 2y agoand that's why it's valid to have a capital gains tax discount. It prevents you from making a loss in real terms due to taxes.
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- fortran77 2y agoThey can recover a lot more by looking into people who report low incomes.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- collingreen 2y agoReally? How do we know they can get more from low income reporters?
- palmfacehn 2y agoThey cannot afford the same accountants or lawyers.
- yieldcrv 2y agobecause “income” means 3 different things to the IRS there are income taxes and then there are taxes on income, where income in this context is a category of earning types, which has subcategories passive income and earned income. but not to be confused with capital gains tax, which is under the umbrella of income taxes, after capital gains taxes have been computed. it is very easy to reduce income taxes (are you still following) despite high passive or earned income. so yeah they should probably look into them I’ve had 7 figures of earned income but had negative adjusted gross income, the President even sent me a stimulus check because my reported income was so low. I just blamed the White House and Congress for not differentiating and moved on.
- joshuamorton 2y agoIn practically any situation here, you're probably misfiling your taxes and therefore one of the high-wealth folks this article is about. If you have a 7-figure earned income, you're going to be taxed at a 28% marginal rate even if your AGI is negative, because of the AMT.
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- yeuxardents 2y agoDidn't congress add 30bln to the IRS budget solely for this purpose, and the return is 1bln? I wonder if they even know what the outlays are for collection...will they ever collect more than the 30bln they allocated? How much does everyone need to be squeezed just to retrieve that 30bln allocation...All the smartest wealthiest people have the best accountants and moved/invested/capexd their money legally to begin with, within the letter of the law and rules anyway.
- defrost 2y agoCertainly not per year. Operating costs 2014-2023: https://www.irs.gov/statistics/irs-budget-and-workforce https://www.irs.gov/statistics/irs-budget-and-workforce
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> Didn't congress add 30bln to the IRS budget solely for this purpose $80bn through 2031, or about $8bn per year [1]. That is projected to buy us well over a trillion dollars of new revenue [2]. FTA: “In June, the Treasury proposed a rule and guidance that includes plans to essentially stop “partnership basis shifting” — a process by which a business or person can move assets among a series of related parties to avoid paying taxes. That could raise more than $50 billion in revenue over the next decade, Treasury said.” > the smartest wealthiest people have the best accountants and moved/invested/capexd their money legally to begin with Now do the dumbest wealthy. [1] https://www.cbo.gov/publication/59972 https://www.cbo.gov/publication/59972 [2] https://www.cbo.gov/publication/60037 https://www.cbo.gov/publication/60037
- pstrateman 2y agoSo that's still $8bn to collect $1bn. Or am I missing something?
- renewiltord 2y agoYeah, in the sense that my car cost $32k and I drove it to my job that made me $3k today. But I will drive the car tomorrow as well. And I drove it yesterday too.
- Singular9178 2y ago[flagged]
- baq 2y agoIf you’re paying taxes, you’re already winning. Is not paying taxes a matter of principle of some sort?
- matheusmoreira 2y ago> Is not paying taxes a matter of principle of some sort? Yes. Some countries have governments so irredeemably corrupt you come to regard taxes as equivalent to robbery. Worse than robbery: at least robbers don't make you provide a detailed accounting of the tributes they demand from you at gunpoint.
- archagon 2y agoSounds like you should move!
- crngefest 2y agoNot paying taxes is one of the strongest human instincts
- ngetchell 2y agoFor a child maybe. Adults should be able to take a breath and see the services they depend on and how taxes pay for them.
- bilbo0s 2y agoNot gonna tell you how to live your life. However, as a general rule for others who may find themselves in similar situations. I’d advise that if one is already on the IRS radar in this fashion, s/he probably ought to refrain from posting on law enforcement accessible websites about the ways you’re getting over on the IRS. Restrain the proclivity we’ve all developed in the age of social media towards a ‘look at me’ mentality.
- exabrial 2y agoDumb. It’ll literally be spent in hours. The problem is the spending, not the collection.
- amanaplanacanal 2y agoEverybody wants to cut spending, but they all want to cut different parts of the spending. It’s a conundrum.
- jimmygrapes 2y agoFor those rich folk out there, did you know that you can voluntarily give more money than the IRS requires? https://www.treasurydirect.gov/government/public-debt-reports/gifts/ https://www.treasurydirect.gov/government/public-debt-report...
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- victor9000 2y agoDuring Fiscal Year (FY) 2023, the IRS collected nearly $4.7 trillion in gross taxes, processed almost 271.5 million tax returns and other forms, and issued about $659.1 billion in tax refunds. [1] IRS’s actual expenditures were just over $16.1 billion for overall operations in Fiscal Year (FY) 2023. [2] [1] https://www.irs.gov/statistics/soi-tax-stats-irs-data-book https://www.irs.gov/statistics/soi-tax-stats-irs-data-book [2] https://www.irs.gov/statistics/irs-budget-and-workforce https://www.irs.gov/statistics/irs-budget-and-workforce
- miohtama 2y agoGood to set into context, thank you
- hobo_in_library 2y agoMore context: - The US Defense Budget alone is $842 billion for 2024 [1] - The US has given over $90 billion to Israel and Ukraine in 2024 [2] All funded by debt. $1 billion here is theater to make us feel good about "sticking it to the rich" We talk about getting the rich to "pay their fair share" as if the whole tax system isn't designed to get that money into the hands of whoever is greasing our politicians' palms. Good ol' military industrial complex.x [1] https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/3326875/department-of-defense-releases-the-presidents-fiscal-year-2024-defense-budget/ https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/332687... [2] https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- deanCommie 2y agoHow is it all funded by debt? OP says the IRS collected $4.7T in taxes. So the military budget is 17% of the collected taxes, and the aide to Israel/Ukraine is <2% of all the collected taxes. Why does debt matter?
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- tokendem 2y ago[flagged]
- indigo0086 2y agoIsrael and Ukraine say thank you