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Intel confirms oxidation and excessive voltage in 13th and 14th Gen CPUs [video]
- sas369 2y agoI was considering buying a Lenovo Legion 7i (i9-14900HX), time to move onto other options I guess.
- abracadaniel 2y agoAt least wait until reviews after the August microcode patch. No telling if it actually fixes the problem, or what the performance impact is. On the other hand I know someone with a Ryzen Legion Pro laptop that seems pretty solid.
- sas369 2y agoIm not sure If i want to spend good money on a laptop that would need a bios update to under volt the cpu right out of the box. TBH I'm not even sure if the mobile processors have the same issues as the desktop K series SKU's, but its not worth the long term anxiety i guess.
- nottorp 2y agoHah funny, I almost hit order on an Intel Legion 7 too. The final decision for a combination of this and unrelated reasons was to wait 6 months and see. But if you need a laptop now, Lenovo has Ryzen options too.
- sas369 2y agoUnfortunately the Ryzen options are pretty limited where I live. The 7945HX options are either out of stock or out of my budget. So Im forced to use choose between a 7745HS or a 8845HS.
- nottorp 2y agoSame here. Decided to wait a couple months. But fortunately I can afford to wait. The Ryzens would have been within budget but were simply not available locally in the Legion 7 form.
- layer8 2y agoThe oxidation issues only happened on early runs of the 13th gen; the submission title is misleading.
- OutOfHere 2y agoBesides Tuxedo, do any vendors sell AMD Linux laptops with 96+ GB of RAM?
- dflock 2y agoFrameWork looks like they only go up to 64GB: https://frame.work/gb/en/products/laptop16-diy-amd-7040?tab=specs https://frame.work/gb/en/products/laptop16-diy-amd-7040?tab=...
- jsheard 2y agoIt would probably be much cheaper to buy a Framework without RAM and then install 96GB yourself anyway, even if they did offer a 96GB option. It looks like they charge roughly the same amount for 2x32GB as it costs to buy 2x48GB DDR5 SODIMMs at retail.
- p_l 2y agothe CPU in framework 16" will happily run 2x48GB SODIMMs.
- COGlory 2y agoThere are working 96 GB kits. Check the Framework forum and also reddit.
- sandreas 2y agoNotebook RAM is about to change. Maybe it is worth waiting a bit... https://www.tomshardware.com/laptops/lenovo-thinkpad-p1-gen-7-is-the-worlds-first-laptop-to-sport-lpcamm2-memory https://www.tomshardware.com/laptops/lenovo-thinkpad-p1-gen-...
- zorgmonkey 2y agoPeople have tested the 96GB DRR5 SODIMM kit and reported it to work with framework AMD laptop (framework lets you pick none for RAM, so you won't be paying RAM you won't use). Also as far as I know no one makes DDR5 SODIMM's with >48GB per stick.
- vaylian 2y agoYou can check the generation of your intel CPU by running lscpu | grep 'Model name' On a Linux terminal
- 7thaccount 2y agoGet-WmiObject Win32_Processor For windows powershell.
- metadat 2y agoOr plain old cmd.exe: wmic CPU get NAME
- hnthrowaway0315 2y agoIntel(R) Core(TM) i5-6600 CPU @ 3.30GHz Looks good to me.
- algorithmsRcool 2y ago`Get-CimInstance Win32_Processor` on Powershell Core
- layer8 2y agoAnd if your CPU is older than October 2022, you don’t have to check.
- AdamN 2y agoSort of a weird question but who's using Intel anymore? Most tech people are using Macs on the laptop side, AWS is going Graviton first, RaspberryPi/small form factor is ARM, and then of course there's all the higher level abstractions that are common where you can't even know what processor is under the hood.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- zamadatix 2y ago
- MangoCoffee 2y agoThis doesn't look good for Intel's IDM 2.0
- schmidtleonard 2y agoAnyone steeped in the industry deeply enough to be shopping for a fab saw straight through the "overclocking to appear competitive" strategy from day one and knew this was a likely result. Intel's desperate marketing didn't help them (much) then, but the flip side is it didn't hurt them (much) now.
- wmf 2y agoPreviously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41039708 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41039708
- metadat 2y agoThanks! Macro-expanded: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs — https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41039708 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41039708 — 203 comments
- segasaturn 2y agoI dumped my intel shares just now, stock price has been sinking for the last week over this news but I'm predicting a recall or a big lawsuit will make the news from bad to worse.
- kaladin-jasnah 2y agoNot sure if this is being downvoted because it's incorrect or bad investment advice, but I am interested to know if or how INTC stock price will react to this.
- segasaturn 2y agoWell if it does react it won't be positively! Intel has been hinging their future on becoming a general purpose fab (like a Western TSMC) and the CEO even said he was open to making chips for AMD and Nvidia. But if their manufacturing process has major defects and contamination then they might as well scrap all of that. They're not coming off as trustworthy here either so who is going to want to have their products made by them?
- nahnahno 2y agoThere is no indication it’s a broad manufacturing problem. It was contamination on Intel 7 that happened in 2023 and was resolved, and is not responsible for the instability issues in the majority.
- adgjlsfhk1 2y agoI think the real issue with the manufacturing problem is that Intel never said in 2023 "hey everyone, we had a manufacturing problem that affects all intel 13th gen cpus up until day X. We are offering RMAs for all affected units". As such, over a year later, no one outside of Intel knows exactly whether their chips are having instability due to this.
- paulmd 2y ago
- lofaszvanitt 2y agoWhy there are so many errors with Intel cpus lately? CPUs used to be the most reliable parts of a computer. Are there too many "moving"variables to extensively test everything? Is it no longer possible to grab the speed crown without cutting corners?
- Bluescreenbuddy 2y agoSince Skylake. It's the reason Apple dumped them.
- shrubble 2y agoThey had problems in the move to new fab sizes and are scrambling to show good numbers vs. AMD and their own previous generations so they can sell new CPUs.
- moffkalast 2y agoIntel's been asleep for a decade. Anyone still remembers how they charged outrageous prices for 1-3% improvements every year during AMD's Bulldozer years? They did nothing in R&D and just kept printing money. Yeah this is the result of that complacency. Ever since the first Ryzen launched Intel's become more and more irrelevant. If either AMD manages to capture the low TDP and embedded market or ARM improves in compatibility they'll become largely the last choice for anything. They're so damn lucky AMD is fantastic at shooting themselves in the foot.
- TwoNineA 2y agoRyzen and Apple M1 were the best things that happened to CPUs. On one hand I got a super efficient CPU in the M1 and on other hand, I can get a very performant 16 core CPU (Ryzen 7950x) without shelling out insane money for server/workstation CPUs.
- josemanuel 2y agoAlso they seem to have lost a huge amount of senior technical people… I can’t see who’s at the helm to guide the technical choices. They have limited institutional experience now (probably). I don’t think things will improve…
- mzs 2y agoThis video is about this updated post: https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/1e9mf04/intel_core_13th14th_gen_desktop_processors/ https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/1e9mf04/intel_core_1...
- MangoCoffee 2y agoThis is the reason why chip manufacturing is not just about buying an EUV machine and then starting to pump out chips to make it rain, as many people believe. This is craftsmanship. John Doe can use Python to create software, and so can you, yet John Doe's code runs better and faster while your code crashes all the time. People seem to forget that a craftsman's ability to use tools is a big factor in the final product.
- mensetmanusman 2y agoI don’t think anyone thought otherwise when it comes to CPUs. Oxidation induced effects are a function of pushing the limits of nm scale transistor architectures though.
- throwaway4pp24 2y agoMany people are saying it's all about the Zeiss machines and TSMC isn't actually bringing much over that. Usually as an argument about EU tech competitiveness.
- Jyaif 2y agoIs it AMD that has this specific craftsmanship, or TSMC?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- RevEng 2y agoBoth. There's a huge difference between designing a functional chip and designing a chip with high yield and long term reliability. Companies and individuals vary wildly in their processes and understanding. It's becoming a wide spread problem in the industry. For decades technology-minded folks have been told to go into software development because that's where the money is. The field of custom IC design has been both short on applicants and has had huge barriers to entry. As a result, the experienced engineers are retiring and there aren't enough juniors coming up to replace them. Skills and institutional knowledge are being lost. There is a lot of focus right now on tools such as AI to allow junior people to produce things at an expert level based on encoding that expert knowledge. It would be great if it worked, but so far the results aren't there. Source: I develop EDA software for custom IC design.
- proee 2y agoThe fact any modern computer chip works reliability is a pure miracle. The process variations are extreme, and you often end up with a lot of B-level engineers/technicians keeping things going. Having some experience in the semiconductor industry, it oftentimes felt like a lot of bubble gum and bailing wire was used to get the product out the door. Hats off to all the people keeping these systems alive and functioning.
- stonethrowaway 2y agoI’m at a point where I no longer call these things chips. I don’t know what they are, they have pins but to me the precision and machinery used is at the very least on a scale of atomic design. It should not be possible for automated machines to fabricate these things. Yet here we are.
- jcynix 2y agoSimilar to software, so the whole IT industry seems like a miracle sometimes. And the car industry gets more and more software installed ...
- globular-toast 2y agoThere must the a name for this phenomenon. Like, the more you know, the less faith you have in it actually working. I'm pretty sure everyone feels this way about their work. I just asked my partner if it's the same with her (non-tech) job and she said yes, she can't believe it works at all. Arthur C. Clarke's Travel by Wire comes to mind too.
- YurgenJurgensen 2y agoIs this just Gell-Mann amnesia, but for reliability?
- hnthrow289570 2y agoIt's more like disregarding all of the advantages and only focusing on the negatives or when incidents happen. People routinely clown on companies for downtime but do not celebrate sending multiple MB pictures and videos over cell networks in remote locations from a super computer in their pocket. Even 95% reliability is relatively good for networks working across the globe relative to what we've had through most of history. The average person easily plays into the trope that no one appreciates IT when it works, but readily has opinions when there are problems.
- sqeaky 2y agoIntel is looking really skeevy on this. Won't them lying and downlplaying bite them harder? How is this level of misrepresenting and covering up not criminal? EDIT - Why the downvotes? I seriously don't understand why they are doing it this way. They have actively blamed other companies, like NVidia (not that I like them either, but they simply didn't cause this issue). There are multiple teams claiming denied RMAs during the period Intel knew about the oxidation. They didn't announce this until multiple outlets started talking about it. They did 2 different announcements with different explanations and the more mild one first. Their statements are contradictory at least in part. This just isn't how people acting in good faith behave. Using intel's past behavior as an example they have previously handled problems. With spectre they were way more transparent and just published findinds on problems without hiding them for years.
- wmf 2y agoThey had to reduce safety margins to match AMD's performance. Now months later they still haven't completely debugged the problem so they are stalling. This is the downside of the "only the paranoid survive" attitude.
- sqeaky 2y agoI want to agree with you, but I don't think we really know enough to say this with certainty. What you propose is on of several plausible scenarios.
- xyst 2y agoIntel recall, wen? Maybe after the quarterly results are latest. Got to time those puts
- wmf 2y agoFirst they have to actually fix the problem. If you return your CPU and they send you another defective CPU nothing has been accomplished.
- throw7 2y agoQuick, we need another CHIPS Act to shovel more billions into Intel.
- foft 2y agoThe tricky thing here is that as this mostly affects unlocked CPUs it is going to be hard to prove when the fault is from this algorithm vs user/motherboard manufacturer overlocking. Unless there is any internal monitoring with fuses blown. Is there? As part of the bathtub reliability curve its usual for a large fraction of failures early in life, how much over the usual failure curve are we? It's still unclear what fraction of CPUs are impacted for both issues. Was oxidation a single fab just for a month and only 5% of produced CPUs? Is the microcode issue in TB 3.0 or TVB, so would only impact the 1[34]900s? It's also unclear if once degraded it can still reliably work at say 95% peak frequency. In the case of a partial recall it might be worth a discount option if that is the case. Anyway it's mostly speculation beyond Intel's post on their forum (+Reddit responses), it will be interested to see the next stages which will hopefully clarify some of these. This is just a discussion forum I'm sure the final detailed announcement will the made via their main communication channels.
- wmf 2y agoThe PR is so bad that Intel is going to have to take responsibility regardless. And updating the microcode kind of "proves" that the old microcode was defective in some way.
- cuddlyogre 2y agoI had a 13900K blue screen at random for almost a year. Anything that used more than a certain amount of cores would either crash or blue screen, which was irritating considering I built the machine in part so I could do simulations and renders in Blender. I was also unable to use dual channel RAM. It just wouldn't POST no matter what settings I used. I went through 3 motherboards hoping it was that, and not the insanely expensive CPU that would be a pain to RMA. But as it turns out, the RMA process was very quick and painless once I provided my troubleshooting history. But due to it being my main computer that I make my money with, I had to buy another processor to fill the 2 week gap between sending the old one and receiving the new one. I probably spend $1500 or more on this problem, and by the sounds of it, my troubles might not be over.
- addaon 2y agoWhenever I see a post like this, I wonder why the poster didn't just return the non-working part to the vendor they bought it from. This might be my US bias, but very few vendors put it on the customer to prove a certain level of testing and diagnostic activities; if the customer says it didn't work, the customer gets their money back. If you're not sure if it's the motherboard or the CPU or... return it all, and try again. No?
- cuddlyogre 2y agoI may have been able to return it to Newegg, but return shipping is hit or miss as to whether you have to pay for it and I was honestly so frustrated with the whole fiasco that I just wanted to go directly to the source for a replacement that I knew(??) would work. Getting a replacement from Newegg might have just been another from the same lot. As for having to prove I did ample troubleshooting, the last thing I wanted was to mail it in and have it returned because they couldn't find anything wrong with it, which has happened to me with other things in the past.
- rndmize 2y agoSimilar story here. 13700KF, no OC, had the machine put together 18 months ago at a respectable shop (Central Computers for those in the bay). I had regular stability issues and blue screens to the point I took it back to the shop after three months - they couldn't find anything wrong. Took it in again at nine months with increasing frustration - nothing. Probably should have taken it again three months ago when I was playing the new Helldivers and that would crash the machine every other time I joined a game, but by that point I was pretty exhausted by the whole thing (and the game had other, unrelated bugs that had me looking elsewhere). Odds are good I won't be bothering with Intel hardware or recommending it to others for the next decade or more - this has been a flatly terrible experience (and I'll note the irony of finally deciding to spend on a "dream build" and this being the result).
- heraldgeezer 2y agoStill on my 4790k... But eyeing an AMD system for sure. Maybe the X3D top one is enough.
- nodja 2y ago>Intel confirms oxidation and excessive voltage in 13th and 14th Gen CPUs Title is ambiguous, it seems to imply 14th gen CPUs have oxidation issues, the video explains that the oxidation issues are only on an early run of 13th gen. If you own a 14th gen intel CPU you should be safe after applying the upcoming microcode update.
- paulmd 2y agoYou’re not reading it wrong, that’s really what they’re asserting. GN is saying that it is an active problem resulting in the failures. GN is sometimes really good and sometimes really bad. They do tons of great data-driven benchmarking and research like this, and then jump to bizarre conclusions at the end, or make bizarre proclamations like “long term value doesn’t exist because that’s not how money works”. For a while back in 2019 they were declaring the death of 6-core CPUs because of 0.1% lows, and their supporting evidence basically was a couple obviously-broken games like BFV and Far Cry 5 where a 2C4T pentium was outscoring their 6C processor by a factor of 2 in the 0.1% lows… and they didn’t see a problem even when it was raised etc. https://i.imgur.com/Py69p36.jpg https://i.imgur.com/Py69p36.jpg https://gamersnexus.net/images/media/2018/cpus/2600k/intel-i7-2600k-2018-bench_fc5_1080p.png https://gamersnexus.net/images/media/2018/cpus/2600k/intel-i... Another example was Steve insisting last december that “nvidia was leaving the gaming industry” because of “recent” quotes from Jensen about nvidia being an AI company now… and the citation literally on screen behind him dated the quotation to the mid-2010s. Raised it to him, doesn’t care. He got his clicks. https://youtu.be/VSSb-t76EpU?t=147 https://youtu.be/VSSb-t76EpU?t=147 Like, as the gaming community prepares for the launch of the 5090 sometime this fall or early next year… how’s that working out? It’s not uncommon for steve to do this. Like there’s certainly an issue here, and oxidation is an issue that existed in the past. Steve thinks therefore that it must be the issue for all these chips, even though intel says that’s basically a small problem that was fixed over a year ago. Steve disagrees, on the basis of evidence such as: (This space left intentionally blank) Like people need to get it through their heads that reviewers are humans too, with their own foibles and weaknesses. Some articles he does incredible investigative work. Other ones he’s arguing that we need to abandon 6C processors in favor of (checks notes) stock 2C pentiums because of frametimes, or that spending more can never deliver long term value if it lasts better because “that’s not how money works” (exasperated Steve face). It all depends whether he’s being data driven or whether he’s engineering a support for an argument on a given day - he sucks way more when he’s working backwards to fit data to conclusion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu7pxJXBBn8&t=273s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu7pxJXBBn8&t=273s
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- mihemihe 2y agoDoes anyone know the list of CPUs affected. I have been running a 13700k for more than 9 months and I have not had a single blue screen so far. Has Intel released an official list of SKUs? Thanks