4 ms·

> The actual unwritten rule is not so much against inventions, as against having any fun. The rules, written or not, are about trying to adjudicate a competiti

> The actual unwritten rule is not so much against inventions, as against having any fun. The rules, written or not, are about trying to adjudicate a competition of people, if you want a no holds bared technology based competition nothing precludes creating a different one (or participating in one, there’s no dearth of alleycat races and other odd events like the singlespeed world championship).

eru 2y ago
I'm not against rules. What irks me a bit is that they are supposed to be about bikes, but in reality they are only about bikes that look exactly like the ones they have in mind. Eg (if I remember right) they also specify a minimum wheel radius, because at some point people started doing well with those, and the people in charge didn't like that. And they might as well be right: they have an entertainment business to run. They don't care about finding the best or anything like that.
- angus-prune 2y ago
  I disagree that the sport is about bikes. I think the sport is about cyclists. The olympics is particular is built around human athletic competition not technical competition. How do you find the best cyclist if the quality of the bikes is wildly different? In any experiment, you have to control for the factors other than the ones you're looking to test. I don't think its fair to say that they don't care about finding the best, they're just trying to find the best of a different category than you're interested in. As GP said. There is also space for different competitions about technology (in motorsport, formula 1 has both a driver championship and a constructor championship which is about the technology).
  - masklinn 2y ago
    > There is also space for different competitions about technology (in motorsport, formula 1 has both a driver championship and a constructor championship which is about the technology). And even then the technology is severely curtailed, it has to compete within a fairly restrictive design envelope.
  - eru 2y ago
    > How do you find the best cyclist if the quality of the bikes is wildly different? In that case, you should probably give everyone the same 'official' bike.
    - russfink 2y ago
      I agree, but sadly when officials start trusting, they stop looking, and this opens it up to more widespread cheating.
      - eru 2y ago
        I'm not sure what you mean by that? Just produce the same identical bikes, and assign them randomly at the start of the race?
        olyjohn 2y ago
        Ever go to a go kart track and notice that some karts are faster than others? They're all identical as far as the eye can see, but in reality tons of subtle differences pop up. You can have spec bikes, but there no way they'll all be tuned identically, all have the exact same lubrication in all the bearings, all have the exact chain tension, all have the axles torqued identically. All the derailers built exactly the same... One bike will get inevitably have an advantage over the others.
        eru 2y ago
        Assign the bikes randomly, and swap them around often enough between legs of the races. The Tour de France is pretty long.
    - The_Colonel 2y ago
      This would need to accommodate many different sizes, geometries, subjective preferences.
      - eru 2y ago
- HPsquared 2y ago
  Viewers are turned off if one of the competitors is seen to be winning simply due to having a better bike. The main characters in the show are the riders, not the bike builders.
  - nradov 2y ago
    Which viewers are those? Pro cycling fans are interested in bike manufacturers and technology, as well as in the riders. Gaining advantages through having better bikes (within reason) is a key part of the sport and part of what makes it fun to watch.
- masklinn 2y ago
  > I'm not against rules. Of course you are. If you’re against any rule you personally dislike or misunderstand you’re not for rules. > What irks me a bit is that they are supposed to be about bikes See that’s your problem: you completely missed what the competition was about. The competition is no more about bicycles than an archery competitions is about bows and arrows. The competition is about the athletes, the gear is only the means through which it happens. That’s why the name on the podium is that of the cyclist, not of the bike manufacturer.
  - eru 2y ago
    Just give everyone the same official bike then. > Of course you are. If you’re against any rule you personally dislike or misunderstand you’re not for rules. Haha.
SkyBelow 2y ago
>The rules, written or not, are about trying to adjudicate a competition of people Wouldn't this be best done by having one group make a bunch of identical bikes that are randomly assigned? Anything more than this and it is allowing some technology innovations and customization, regardless of if the reason is deemed justifiable or not.
- ianferrel 2y ago
  This wouldn't work because people aren't all the same size. Just like you couldn't make footraces fairer by making everyone wear the same shoes.
  - eru 2y ago
    You can provide the official bike in a range of sizes.
    - ianferrel 2y ago
      You could, but you'd still have a similar problem. Imagine that footraces all had to be run in the same model shoes, in whatever size. Human body variation far exceeds any kind of standard sizing. There's a reason that anything that fits a body often has hundreds of different competing designs and materials and size specs and different people are more comfortable with different ones. It's bordering intractable to try to make a "standard" bike that fits the full variation of human bodies. Making that a requirement for a race would favor people who happen to have bodies more congruent with whatever your geometry and materials and sizing quantum are.

eru 2y ago

I'm not against rules. What irks me a bit is that they are supposed to be about bikes, but in reality they are only about bikes that look exactly like the ones they have in mind. Eg (if I remember right) they also specify a minimum wheel radius, because at some point people started doing well with those, and the people in charge didn't like that. And they might as well be right: they have an entertainment business to run. They don't care about finding the best or anything like that.

angus-prune 2y ago
I disagree that the sport is about bikes. I think the sport is about cyclists. The olympics is particular is built around human athletic competition not technical competition. How do you find the best cyclist if the quality of the bikes is wildly different? In any experiment, you have to control for the factors other than the ones you're looking to test. I don't think its fair to say that they don't care about finding the best, they're just trying to find the best of a different category than you're interested in. As GP said. There is also space for different competitions about technology (in motorsport, formula 1 has both a driver championship and a constructor championship which is about the technology).
- masklinn 2y ago
  > There is also space for different competitions about technology (in motorsport, formula 1 has both a driver championship and a constructor championship which is about the technology). And even then the technology is severely curtailed, it has to compete within a fairly restrictive design envelope.
- eru 2y ago
  > How do you find the best cyclist if the quality of the bikes is wildly different? In that case, you should probably give everyone the same 'official' bike.
  - russfink 2y ago
    I agree, but sadly when officials start trusting, they stop looking, and this opens it up to more widespread cheating.
    - eru 2y ago
      I'm not sure what you mean by that? Just produce the same identical bikes, and assign them randomly at the start of the race?
      - olyjohn 2y ago
        Ever go to a go kart track and notice that some karts are faster than others? They're all identical as far as the eye can see, but in reality tons of subtle differences pop up. You can have spec bikes, but there no way they'll all be tuned identically, all have the exact same lubrication in all the bearings, all have the exact chain tension, all have the axles torqued identically. All the derailers built exactly the same... One bike will get inevitably have an advantage over the others.
        eru 2y ago
        Assign the bikes randomly, and swap them around often enough between legs of the races. The Tour de France is pretty long.
  - The_Colonel 2y ago
    This would need to accommodate many different sizes, geometries, subjective preferences.
    - eru 2y ago
HPsquared 2y ago
Viewers are turned off if one of the competitors is seen to be winning simply due to having a better bike. The main characters in the show are the riders, not the bike builders.
- nradov 2y ago
  Which viewers are those? Pro cycling fans are interested in bike manufacturers and technology, as well as in the riders. Gaining advantages through having better bikes (within reason) is a key part of the sport and part of what makes it fun to watch.
masklinn 2y ago
> I'm not against rules. Of course you are. If you’re against any rule you personally dislike or misunderstand you’re not for rules. > What irks me a bit is that they are supposed to be about bikes See that’s your problem: you completely missed what the competition was about. The competition is no more about bicycles than an archery competitions is about bows and arrows. The competition is about the athletes, the gear is only the means through which it happens. That’s why the name on the podium is that of the cyclist, not of the bike manufacturer.
- eru 2y ago
  Just give everyone the same official bike then. > Of course you are. If you’re against any rule you personally dislike or misunderstand you’re not for rules. Haha.

SkyBelow 2y ago

>The rules, written or not, are about trying to adjudicate a competition of people Wouldn't this be best done by having one group make a bunch of identical bikes that are randomly assigned? Anything more than this and it is allowing some technology innovations and customization, regardless of if the reason is deemed justifiable or not.

ianferrel 2y ago
This wouldn't work because people aren't all the same size. Just like you couldn't make footraces fairer by making everyone wear the same shoes.
- eru 2y ago
  You can provide the official bike in a range of sizes.
  - ianferrel 2y ago
    You could, but you'd still have a similar problem. Imagine that footraces all had to be run in the same model shoes, in whatever size. Human body variation far exceeds any kind of standard sizing. There's a reason that anything that fits a body often has hundreds of different competing designs and materials and size specs and different people are more comfortable with different ones. It's bordering intractable to try to make a "standard" bike that fits the full variation of human bodies. Making that a requirement for a race would favor people who happen to have bodies more congruent with whatever your geometry and materials and sizing quantum are.