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People that can convince politicians to build nice mass transit, are the ones unwilling to ride it. The US is heavily bifurcated socio-economically. It's quite

People that can convince politicians to build nice mass transit, are the ones unwilling to ride it. The US is heavily bifurcated socio-economically. It's quite simple and nobody much likes to talk about it (admit it): the top 50% do not want to ride on mass transit with the bottom 50%. And even more so, the top 1/3 absolutely do not want to ride on mass transit with the bottom 1/3. The top 1/3 pay most of the taxes in the US. In the US the top 50% are relatively well off, affluent by Western standards. The top 1/3 in the US is equivalent to Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway - highly rich, highly educated. The bottom 1/3 is not well off. The bottom 1/3 is poor and uneducated by Western standards, with extremely high rates of violent crime, murder and untreated mental illness. The murder/violent crime/rape rate in the bottom 1/3 is truly terrifying in the US. Nothing is done to address (improve) any of it. edit: The same premise largely applies to the top 1/3 blocking the construction of new housing, because they don't want to live near the bottom 1/3. The people that can make new construction happen (financially, politically), are the ones that don't want it to happen. This goes on in blue cities, it goes on in red cities.

teractiveodular 2y ago
As usual, the Onion nailed it years ago: https://www.theonion.com/report-98-percent-of-u-s-commuters-favor-public-trans-1819565837 https://www.theonion.com/report-98-percent-of-u-s-commuters-...
creer 2y ago
At least here, the problem is absolutely not the "bottom 1/3" but the mentally deranged and the outright violent. Completely different category. You seem to conflate the two and that doesn't represent the situation on the ground. The 1st category is poor but civil. Even then, the system is slow, sparse, unreliable. Most of the time this wouldn't be a desired transport, more like one of the rare ones available.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  Exactly. Nobody is avoiding public transportation because there are poor people riding it. They're avoiding it because there are mentally unstable, violent people, and pickpockets riding it. It's a totally different set of people, totally different reason.
- adventured 2y ago
  The rates of violent crime, murder, and untreated mental illness directly correlate in the US with the rate of poverty. In locations where poverty is very high, the murder rate is very high (and that combo is amplified by population density). That's due to the exceptionally mediocre social safety net in the US, among numerous other causes. If you're in the bottom 1/3 you have very limited access to quality+sustained mental health treatment. If you're in the top 1/3, you have nearly unlimited access to getting treatment for a mental illness. It's not millionaires roaming the streets of US cities looking like zombies, blasted out on drugs, hauling around untreated mental illnesses.
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    It’s mostly fentanyl or some other kind of drug abuse, not mental illness. Seattle made the mistake of trying to treat drug abuse as a form of mental illness and got burned badly since you can’t really treat it without getting rid of the drug abuse aspect first. Decriminalizing hard drugs definitely hasn’t helped, and you can’t really force any of these people into drug treatment because they prefer cheap drug fixes instead.
    - Brechreiz 2y ago
      Yeah, those stupid drug addicts who prefer taking drugs over treatment!
nox101 2y ago
I'm in the 1% and so are most of the people around me. Many of them want to ride good public transit. Good public transit = London, Paris, Tokyo, Singapore, Amsterdam, Berlin, Seoul. It does not equal LA, SF, NYC. LA's got dismantled and is slowly being rebuilt but it's crap. SF's is stinky slow and gross. NYC's is well used but it's not nice by any definition.
- snapplebobapple 2y ago
  Then get the zoning fixed so density and design that support that transit. The transit in the places you mention directly stems from the zoning and density that is basically illegal in north america
- tristor 2y ago
  > I'm in the 1% and so are most of the people around me. Many of them want to ride good public transit. Agreed. The point the GP is trying to make though is that "good public transit" isn't /just/ about infrastructure, it's also about the society around that infrastructure that produces the people who ride it with you. I happily ride public transport while I'm in Europe and even in Latin America, I won't ride it in the US. It's not that I'm opposed to public transport, in fact the opposite, it's that in the US I am likely to be violently accosted, murdered, or robbed while that's basically never going to happen to me in Europe or even in Latin America.
  - dullcrisp 2y ago
    How many times have you been murdered on public transit in the US?
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      Back when I lived in DC, I used to take the DC Metro regularly, usually at least every weekend. I got murdered about once a month on average.
    - tristor 2y ago
      I'm still alive, so zero. Meanwhile, I've been accosted on public transport in the US multiple times. It's part of why I avoid public transport in the US.
seanmcdirmid 2y ago
The top 99.9% don’t want to ride with the bottom .1%, I mean seriously, during the pandemic Seattle light rail and buses seemed to have turned into mobile day centers for unhoused neighbors. Rule of law is lacking in the USA in a way that isn’t lacking in Europe or Asia. I feel safe even on the paris metro, but definitely on a metro in Switzerland or subway in Beijing or Tokyo, in a way that I don’t on Seattle light rail. We just don’t get nice things I guess.
- bilbo0s 2y ago
  Paris metro? You saw no criminals, nor SDF nor mentally ill? You’re either lying, and have never actually been on the Paris metro. Or you’re lying, and you saw plenty of SDF and mentally ill, but just wanted to take a jab at the US. There is crime on the Paris metro all the time. Fights. Mentally ill people screaming. Open theft. And heaven help if you’re a woman. Maybe a guy comes and sits down next to you and pleasures himself. I feel confident calling BS on your comment.
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    They exist on the Paris metro of course, which is why I called it out with “even”, just nowhere near the extreme on the Seattle light rail. People who only think in binary like you are really annoying and aren’t very interesting to talk to though.
    - bilbo0s 2y ago
      Perhaps you find us annoying because we're less likely to buy into your BS?
  - indoordin0saur 2y ago
    Paris Metro is better (but not a lot better) than NYC in this regard. The thing the two cities have is that there are millions of law abiding people who ride them. The crazies and criminals are like 1% of the people in the system at any given time but there are so many normal people that it's not as noticeable. You go somewhere like SF's BART though and you'll sometimes find there are more homeless than normal people on a train.
jitl 2y ago
I’m in the 1% and I’m moving to New York because I love the transit so much

teractiveodular 2y ago

As usual, the Onion nailed it years ago: https://www.theonion.com/report-98-percent-of-u-s-commuters-favor-public-trans-1819565837 https://www.theonion.com/report-98-percent-of-u-s-commuters-...

creer 2y ago

At least here, the problem is absolutely not the "bottom 1/3" but the mentally deranged and the outright violent. Completely different category. You seem to conflate the two and that doesn't represent the situation on the ground. The 1st category is poor but civil. Even then, the system is slow, sparse, unreliable. Most of the time this wouldn't be a desired transport, more like one of the rare ones available.

ryandrake 2y ago
Exactly. Nobody is avoiding public transportation because there are poor people riding it. They're avoiding it because there are mentally unstable, violent people, and pickpockets riding it. It's a totally different set of people, totally different reason.
adventured 2y ago
The rates of violent crime, murder, and untreated mental illness directly correlate in the US with the rate of poverty. In locations where poverty is very high, the murder rate is very high (and that combo is amplified by population density). That's due to the exceptionally mediocre social safety net in the US, among numerous other causes. If you're in the bottom 1/3 you have very limited access to quality+sustained mental health treatment. If you're in the top 1/3, you have nearly unlimited access to getting treatment for a mental illness. It's not millionaires roaming the streets of US cities looking like zombies, blasted out on drugs, hauling around untreated mental illnesses.
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  It’s mostly fentanyl or some other kind of drug abuse, not mental illness. Seattle made the mistake of trying to treat drug abuse as a form of mental illness and got burned badly since you can’t really treat it without getting rid of the drug abuse aspect first. Decriminalizing hard drugs definitely hasn’t helped, and you can’t really force any of these people into drug treatment because they prefer cheap drug fixes instead.
  - Brechreiz 2y ago
    Yeah, those stupid drug addicts who prefer taking drugs over treatment!

nox101 2y ago

I'm in the 1% and so are most of the people around me. Many of them want to ride good public transit. Good public transit = London, Paris, Tokyo, Singapore, Amsterdam, Berlin, Seoul. It does not equal LA, SF, NYC. LA's got dismantled and is slowly being rebuilt but it's crap. SF's is stinky slow and gross. NYC's is well used but it's not nice by any definition.

snapplebobapple 2y ago
Then get the zoning fixed so density and design that support that transit. The transit in the places you mention directly stems from the zoning and density that is basically illegal in north america
tristor 2y ago
> I'm in the 1% and so are most of the people around me. Many of them want to ride good public transit. Agreed. The point the GP is trying to make though is that "good public transit" isn't /just/ about infrastructure, it's also about the society around that infrastructure that produces the people who ride it with you. I happily ride public transport while I'm in Europe and even in Latin America, I won't ride it in the US. It's not that I'm opposed to public transport, in fact the opposite, it's that in the US I am likely to be violently accosted, murdered, or robbed while that's basically never going to happen to me in Europe or even in Latin America.
- dullcrisp 2y ago
  How many times have you been murdered on public transit in the US?
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    Back when I lived in DC, I used to take the DC Metro regularly, usually at least every weekend. I got murdered about once a month on average.
  - tristor 2y ago
    I'm still alive, so zero. Meanwhile, I've been accosted on public transport in the US multiple times. It's part of why I avoid public transport in the US.

seanmcdirmid 2y ago

The top 99.9% don’t want to ride with the bottom .1%, I mean seriously, during the pandemic Seattle light rail and buses seemed to have turned into mobile day centers for unhoused neighbors. Rule of law is lacking in the USA in a way that isn’t lacking in Europe or Asia. I feel safe even on the paris metro, but definitely on a metro in Switzerland or subway in Beijing or Tokyo, in a way that I don’t on Seattle light rail. We just don’t get nice things I guess.

bilbo0s 2y ago
Paris metro? You saw no criminals, nor SDF nor mentally ill? You’re either lying, and have never actually been on the Paris metro. Or you’re lying, and you saw plenty of SDF and mentally ill, but just wanted to take a jab at the US. There is crime on the Paris metro all the time. Fights. Mentally ill people screaming. Open theft. And heaven help if you’re a woman. Maybe a guy comes and sits down next to you and pleasures himself. I feel confident calling BS on your comment.
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  They exist on the Paris metro of course, which is why I called it out with “even”, just nowhere near the extreme on the Seattle light rail. People who only think in binary like you are really annoying and aren’t very interesting to talk to though.
  - bilbo0s 2y ago
    Perhaps you find us annoying because we're less likely to buy into your BS?
- indoordin0saur 2y ago
  Paris Metro is better (but not a lot better) than NYC in this regard. The thing the two cities have is that there are millions of law abiding people who ride them. The crazies and criminals are like 1% of the people in the system at any given time but there are so many normal people that it's not as noticeable. You go somewhere like SF's BART though and you'll sometimes find there are more homeless than normal people on a train.

jitl 2y ago

I’m in the 1% and I’m moving to New York because I love the transit so much