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AMD Ryzen AI 9 HX 370 12-Core APU Is Faster Than M3 Max

37 points by doener 2y ago

solarkraft 2y ago
Here‘s the interesting bit: > It wasn't mentioned if the chip was running at its full 54W TDP The 14 core (which are 2 more than the Ryzen) M3 Max has a TDP of 78 watts, so if the numbers are correct this could mean a very impressive performance per watt (which is what actually matters, why does anyone care about raw power?). Better yet, the chip appears to not even be made with the latest process (TSMC 4nm vs Apple’s 3).
- Kirby64 2y ago
  TDP is mostly meaningless between manufacturers. You can (usually) compare TDP within a manufacturer but even then it’s a bit dicey across generations.
  - dragontamer 2y ago
    Not worthless but.... note that TDP is a thermal design spec. It's not an electrical spec. The main difference is that a chip can overclock itself to 200W on 45W TDP, as long as the overclock period is short enough to not fill up the heatsink with heat. And it can take minutes to fill up the heatsink in practice. Heat travels slower than electricity after all, even across copper and heat pipes.
    - analognoise 2y ago
      Not through diamond, which is basically a thermal short. I want to grow a single piece diamond heat sink.
      - fmajid 2y ago
        All the R&D into lab-grown diamonds is meant for endgame use in computer chips, the jewelry trade is just a short-term means of financing the way there.
      - rowanG077 2y ago
        You can buy it: https://www.msesupplies.com/products/diamond-heat-sink-thermal-conductivity-1500w-m-k?variant=39601902846010 https://www.msesupplies.com/products/diamond-heat-sink-therm... Even single crystal ones: https://www.msesupplies.com/products/single-crystal-diamond-plates?variant=39592776073274 https://www.msesupplies.com/products/single-crystal-diamond-...
- stonith 2y ago
  > which is what actually matters, why does anyone care about raw power? Raw power determines whether games run smoothly, how fast things compile, how fast a render takes etc. The performance per watt determines battery life but for some people that isn't particularly important. I can only run the Unreal Engine Editor for about an hour before the battery runs out on my laptop (5800H/16GB/3070). The raw performance when plugged in is much more useful to me than trying to squeeze another 20 minutes out of it. Of course I prefer using my desktop for those tasks, but sometimes I need to travel or demo so laptop (with charger) it is.
- cosmotic 2y ago
  It would be TSMC 3, no?
OldSchool 2y ago
The passmark numbers are almost identical to a 12th-gen intel i7-12700K, however the still-modern 12-core intel cpu has to pull about 4x as much power to do it.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
laweijfmvo 2y ago
i don’t really know what Passmark is, but my gut feeling is to pay attention to single core performance + number of cores, rather than one [task] that perfectly uses all cores at once, no?
- akvashi 2y ago
  True, single core+ (maybe some minimal multicore work) and compute per watt are the two benchmarks that matter. Apple understands this...
rowanG077 2y ago
Very cool if true! Unfortunately AMD and Intel have shown to not be able to sustain benchmark numbers over multiple runs. Apple with M-series has been able to do that more or less on the pro series macbooks. So I wouldn't be surprised if this chip beats the M3 Max on short term burst but will lose on real workloads like compilation.
red0point 2y ago
How does one use the NPU features on such a chip from like a normal C++ program?
- imtringued 2y ago
  You need to install the XDNA and XRT drivers, then install the Vitis AI compiler (needs a free license) and then you can compile your own custom kernels using mlir-aie using plain old C++. They give you an easy to use API for vectorization. The hardest part is organizing the data transfer through the tiles. In principle this can accelerate anything you can run on a normal CPU as long as it is a streaming workload i.e. single pass or your entire data fits in the memory tiles. The vector registers are at least 1024 bit wide and you get 32 tiles/cores.
diimdeep 2y ago
Faster or not, API availability with no BS FW blobs or tooling and direct to hardware access will be winner here, otherwise no one will be able to program for this chips. Here is some grounded discussion I could find about AMD Ryzen AI NPU programming https://github.com/ggerganov/llama.cpp/issues/1499 https://github.com/ggerganov/llama.cpp/issues/1499 From there, here is list of Ryzen AI engine enabled laptop/mini PC models https://github.com/amd/RyzenAI-SW/issues/18 https://github.com/amd/RyzenAI-SW/issues/18 gather all that, I wonder how on earth these benchmarks comparing oranges to apples.
lostmsu 2y ago
wccftech has repeatedly been unreliable source. IMHO should really be banned.

37 points by doener 2y ago

Here‘s the interesting bit: > It wasn't mentioned if the chip was running at its full 54W TDP The 14 core (which are 2 more than the Ryzen) M3 Max has a TDP of 78 watts, so if the numbers are correct this could mean a very impressive performance per watt (which is what actually matters, why does anyone care about raw power?). Better yet, the chip appears to not even be made with the latest process (TSMC 4nm vs Apple’s 3).

Kirby64 2y ago
TDP is mostly meaningless between manufacturers. You can (usually) compare TDP within a manufacturer but even then it’s a bit dicey across generations.
- dragontamer 2y ago
  Not worthless but.... note that TDP is a thermal design spec. It's not an electrical spec. The main difference is that a chip can overclock itself to 200W on 45W TDP, as long as the overclock period is short enough to not fill up the heatsink with heat. And it can take minutes to fill up the heatsink in practice. Heat travels slower than electricity after all, even across copper and heat pipes.
  - analognoise 2y ago
    Not through diamond, which is basically a thermal short. I want to grow a single piece diamond heat sink.
    - fmajid 2y ago
      All the R&D into lab-grown diamonds is meant for endgame use in computer chips, the jewelry trade is just a short-term means of financing the way there.
    - rowanG077 2y ago
      You can buy it: https://www.msesupplies.com/products/diamond-heat-sink-thermal-conductivity-1500w-m-k?variant=39601902846010 https://www.msesupplies.com/products/diamond-heat-sink-therm... Even single crystal ones: https://www.msesupplies.com/products/single-crystal-diamond-plates?variant=39592776073274 https://www.msesupplies.com/products/single-crystal-diamond-...
stonith 2y ago
> which is what actually matters, why does anyone care about raw power? Raw power determines whether games run smoothly, how fast things compile, how fast a render takes etc. The performance per watt determines battery life but for some people that isn't particularly important. I can only run the Unreal Engine Editor for about an hour before the battery runs out on my laptop (5800H/16GB/3070). The raw performance when plugged in is much more useful to me than trying to squeeze another 20 minutes out of it. Of course I prefer using my desktop for those tasks, but sometimes I need to travel or demo so laptop (with charger) it is.
cosmotic 2y ago
It would be TSMC 3, no?

OldSchool 2y ago

The passmark numbers are almost identical to a 12th-gen intel i7-12700K, however the still-modern 12-core intel cpu has to pull about 4x as much power to do it.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

laweijfmvo 2y ago

i don’t really know what Passmark is, but my gut feeling is to pay attention to single core performance + number of cores, rather than one [task] that perfectly uses all cores at once, no?

akvashi 2y ago
True, single core+ (maybe some minimal multicore work) and compute per watt are the two benchmarks that matter. Apple understands this...

rowanG077 2y ago

Very cool if true! Unfortunately AMD and Intel have shown to not be able to sustain benchmark numbers over multiple runs. Apple with M-series has been able to do that more or less on the pro series macbooks. So I wouldn't be surprised if this chip beats the M3 Max on short term burst but will lose on real workloads like compilation.

red0point 2y ago

How does one use the NPU features on such a chip from like a normal C++ program?

imtringued 2y ago
You need to install the XDNA and XRT drivers, then install the Vitis AI compiler (needs a free license) and then you can compile your own custom kernels using mlir-aie using plain old C++. They give you an easy to use API for vectorization. The hardest part is organizing the data transfer through the tiles. In principle this can accelerate anything you can run on a normal CPU as long as it is a streaming workload i.e. single pass or your entire data fits in the memory tiles. The vector registers are at least 1024 bit wide and you get 32 tiles/cores.

diimdeep 2y ago

Faster or not, API availability with no BS FW blobs or tooling and direct to hardware access will be winner here, otherwise no one will be able to program for this chips. Here is some grounded discussion I could find about AMD Ryzen AI NPU programming https://github.com/ggerganov/llama.cpp/issues/1499 https://github.com/ggerganov/llama.cpp/issues/1499 From there, here is list of Ryzen AI engine enabled laptop/mini PC models https://github.com/amd/RyzenAI-SW/issues/18 https://github.com/amd/RyzenAI-SW/issues/18 gather all that, I wonder how on earth these benchmarks comparing oranges to apples.

lostmsu 2y ago

wccftech has repeatedly been unreliable source. IMHO should really be banned.