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Everywhere in Europe that welcomed Jews, their neighbors attacked them whenever the Plague came around, blaming them for poisoning wells. To be blunt, if that h

Everywhere in Europe that welcomed Jews, their neighbors attacked them whenever the Plague came around, blaming them for poisoning wells. To be blunt, if that hadn't happened, the Jews would have probably disappeared into the general European population by the 15th Century. So you are supporting the point that village rumors led to a situation of permanent exclusion for Gypsies.

rapsey 2y ago
Jews were money lenders, which inherently instills a level of hatred.
- ekianjo 2y ago
  not all jews though. Most of them were, I believe, middle class workers. You can see that from the meaning of their last names in the places they originate from.
- noduerme 2y ago
  Jews were not allowed to own land or engage in trades. What they did have was an ethnic/family presence across national boundaries, which placed a few of them in a unique position to negotiate on behalf of their lords and kings. This led to a condition where a small fraction of Jews became essential to European diplomacy, and subsequently became movers of money. That plus the Christian ban on moneylending and the need for liquidity nonetheless. Those wealthy "court Jews" largely converted to Christianity and assimilated, leaving their poorer brethren to die in pogroms and the Holocaust, while serving as the proof of blame for Jewish conspiracy at the same time.
  - oooyay 2y ago
    Honestly it shocks me how unaware people are of some of this stuff and I thought I lived under somewhat of a rock.
    - delta_p_delta_x 2y ago
      Couldn't agree more. Funnily enough it's not even that hard to 'become aware'. Start with the Wikipedia page on the Second World War, for instance, for a blockbuster entry to the topic. The single most marginalised group of people in the West since antiquity have been the Jews (with the Romani a close second). Pretty much every European power has evicted, massacred, initiated pogroms, or otherwise persecuted Jews. The trend continues today. Anyone who says 'anti-Zionism isn't antisemitism' is antisemitic, because that's denying a group of people their homeland or Urheimat. That is classic genocide, by the way.
      - imtringued 2y ago
        Your last sentence makes no sense. Not every Jew identifies as Israeli and by claiming that Israel represents all Jews on this planet you are taking away their agency. Think about how stupid what you wrote is in the context of a hypothetical second Jewish country that also claims to represent all Jews. It is as crackpot as saying Switzerland, Austria and Germany all represent all Germans.
        delta_p_delta_x 2y ago
        > by claiming that Israel represents all Jews That is not what I said; this is a strawman. I said, 'Jewish people deserve sovereignty over their ancestral homeland' (i.e. Zionism). This is completely orthogonal to 'Israel represents all Jewish people'. That being said... > It is as crackpot as saying Switzerland, Austria and Germany all represent all Germans. I don't think that's crackpot at all. What's wrong with an ethnic state representing its people's and diaspora's interests? Why do you think countries today issue their citizens with passports? Why do some countries give even non-citizens a fast-track path to citizenship or at least an indefinite multiple-entry visa, provided they're of a certain ethnicity? A plurality of countries today are ethnic states, by the way, including essentially every European state. I am very happy to say that the German-speaking part of Switzerland, Austria, and Germany absolutely represent Germans as a whole. As an addendum: printed on the inside front cover of my A1 German textbook was a map of Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. Make of that what you will.
  - agumonkey 2y ago
    I only learned recently about usury and the relationship with Jewish groups and their own history. The interplay between local powers needing money at different periods... It was all very fascinating. Especially how simple moral principles (lending for interests) could ripple so far.
- Qwertious 2y ago
  Jews were merchants engaging in transactional relationships with farmers, which in an agragian society instills a level of hatred due to being fundamentally opposite to the reciprocal relations that farming neighbours participate in. https://acoup.blog/2020/08/21/collections-bread-how-did-they-make-it-part-iv-markets-and-non-farmers/ https://acoup.blog/2020/08/21/collections-bread-how-did-they...
- imtringued 2y ago
  The opposite. Money lenders were non-christians, because Christians were forbidden from charging interest. It is also easier to excommunicate a money lender if they aren't a fellow Christian, so the arrangement was actually to the benefit of Christians. What you are doing is "affirming the consequent". Most Jews were working normal jobs (obviously excluding the ones they were legally barred) like everyone else.
- doetoe 2y ago
  I think this inverts cause and effect: they often were money lenders because they were excluded from more traditional jobs and/or land ownership
  - ahartmetz 2y ago
    It's not inversion, but not going for a root cause far enough. You are of course right. Jews were not allowed to pursue most/all "honorable" professions.
  - disgruntledphd2 2y ago
    It's because Christians and Muslims banned lending money with interest, cf usury.
  - Yawrehto 2y ago
    I thought deicide and a general concept of 'otherness' fueled antisemitic restrictions which in turn fueled antisemitism. But yes, Jews were often moneylenders because there were no other options available and that niche was conveniently not open to Christians.
wwtrv 2y ago
> To be blunt, if that hadn't happened, the Jews would have probably disappeared into the general European population by the 15th Century That seems like a bizarre claim... If anything the attacks, discrimination etc. would have encouraged assimilation. Voluntary conversion to Christianity wasn't particularly uncommon either (forced violent conversion also occurred). Even when national governments started expelling their entire Jewish populations staying and getting to keep all of your property ussually was an option. Yet most chose to leave rather than convert. Yes, converted Jews might have faced discrimination and even violence (this depended a lot on the willingness to abandon your old customs and practices and varied hugely based on time and place, but seemingly became a bigger issue at the very end of the middle ages) but ussually they managed to more or less fully assimilate in a few generations.
- noduerme 2y ago
  I see where you're coming from, because it sounds logical to someone who isn't part of an oppressed minority. But for the past 2500 years, religious Jews have felt threatened by the real possibility that less religious Jews would succumb to the easy life of assimilation that came with Helenization, Romanization, Germanization, etc. There is indeed a core that won't succumb to conversion in exchange for a place in the prevailing society, which is why Jews still exist in societies that have made it the slightest bit difficult for Jews to integrate. But contrast that with, for instance, Kaifeng[0]. The biggest fear of Jewish believers is that they will encounter a society like America or China which swallows their talents whole and integrates them fully. Put another way, it is a fear right now in segments of the Jewish community that without antisemitism, Jews would cease to exist. And there is a truth to this borne out by history. In Jewish communities it is practically taken for granted that if we had been treated equally, most of us would have given up our identity ages ago. [0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaifeng_Jews https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaifeng_Jews
  - marnett 2y ago
    I’ve never heard of the Kaifeng Jewish diaspora. Thanks for sharing!
  - 2y ago
agumonkey 2y ago
Sorry but I don't even need rumors about gypsies, as a kid some were schooled during months of winter, and they were .. surprisingly creative when it comes to harming you (and I'm being polite here). I know gypsy culture is also bringing beautiful music, and some are hard working people touring the country during the summer, but really you don't need to go far to have evidence of issues still existing to this day.
- Tao3300 2y ago
  That's what we call racism. Even if the anecdotes are from your own experience, you're still drawing broad ethnic conclusions from them. What do we call anonymous stories, lacking in detail, being circulated in a public forum? Yes, those are rumors.
  - agumonkey 2y ago
    This is seriously frightening almost to the point of gaslighting I'd say. As a sidenote: you're saying I lied to spread rumors ?
    - Tao3300 2y ago
      I'm saying it was an anonymous story, lacking verifiable detail, spread in a public forum. Whether it's your personal truth or not is irrelevant to the fact that it's a rumor by definition. Are you scared of definitions? Do you feel like dictionaries are written to gaslight you? Don't blow it out of proportion.
      - agumonkey 2y ago
        > A piece of unverified information of uncertain origin usually spread by word of mouth. - origin: me - spread by word of mouth: no It is gaslighting to negate someone's experience.
  - pezezin 2y ago
    Have you ever lived in Europe and had to deal with gypsies? If not, please don't talk about what you don't know.

rapsey 2y ago

Jews were money lenders, which inherently instills a level of hatred.

ekianjo 2y ago
not all jews though. Most of them were, I believe, middle class workers. You can see that from the meaning of their last names in the places they originate from.
noduerme 2y ago
Jews were not allowed to own land or engage in trades. What they did have was an ethnic/family presence across national boundaries, which placed a few of them in a unique position to negotiate on behalf of their lords and kings. This led to a condition where a small fraction of Jews became essential to European diplomacy, and subsequently became movers of money. That plus the Christian ban on moneylending and the need for liquidity nonetheless. Those wealthy "court Jews" largely converted to Christianity and assimilated, leaving their poorer brethren to die in pogroms and the Holocaust, while serving as the proof of blame for Jewish conspiracy at the same time.
- oooyay 2y ago
  Honestly it shocks me how unaware people are of some of this stuff and I thought I lived under somewhat of a rock.
  - delta_p_delta_x 2y ago
    Couldn't agree more. Funnily enough it's not even that hard to 'become aware'. Start with the Wikipedia page on the Second World War, for instance, for a blockbuster entry to the topic. The single most marginalised group of people in the West since antiquity have been the Jews (with the Romani a close second). Pretty much every European power has evicted, massacred, initiated pogroms, or otherwise persecuted Jews. The trend continues today. Anyone who says 'anti-Zionism isn't antisemitism' is antisemitic, because that's denying a group of people their homeland or Urheimat. That is classic genocide, by the way.
    - imtringued 2y ago
      Your last sentence makes no sense. Not every Jew identifies as Israeli and by claiming that Israel represents all Jews on this planet you are taking away their agency. Think about how stupid what you wrote is in the context of a hypothetical second Jewish country that also claims to represent all Jews. It is as crackpot as saying Switzerland, Austria and Germany all represent all Germans.
      - delta_p_delta_x 2y ago
        > by claiming that Israel represents all Jews That is not what I said; this is a strawman. I said, 'Jewish people deserve sovereignty over their ancestral homeland' (i.e. Zionism). This is completely orthogonal to 'Israel represents all Jewish people'. That being said... > It is as crackpot as saying Switzerland, Austria and Germany all represent all Germans. I don't think that's crackpot at all. What's wrong with an ethnic state representing its people's and diaspora's interests? Why do you think countries today issue their citizens with passports? Why do some countries give even non-citizens a fast-track path to citizenship or at least an indefinite multiple-entry visa, provided they're of a certain ethnicity? A plurality of countries today are ethnic states, by the way, including essentially every European state. I am very happy to say that the German-speaking part of Switzerland, Austria, and Germany absolutely represent Germans as a whole. As an addendum: printed on the inside front cover of my A1 German textbook was a map of Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. Make of that what you will.
- agumonkey 2y ago
  I only learned recently about usury and the relationship with Jewish groups and their own history. The interplay between local powers needing money at different periods... It was all very fascinating. Especially how simple moral principles (lending for interests) could ripple so far.
Qwertious 2y ago
Jews were merchants engaging in transactional relationships with farmers, which in an agragian society instills a level of hatred due to being fundamentally opposite to the reciprocal relations that farming neighbours participate in. https://acoup.blog/2020/08/21/collections-bread-how-did-they-make-it-part-iv-markets-and-non-farmers/ https://acoup.blog/2020/08/21/collections-bread-how-did-they...
imtringued 2y ago
The opposite. Money lenders were non-christians, because Christians were forbidden from charging interest. It is also easier to excommunicate a money lender if they aren't a fellow Christian, so the arrangement was actually to the benefit of Christians. What you are doing is "affirming the consequent". Most Jews were working normal jobs (obviously excluding the ones they were legally barred) like everyone else.
doetoe 2y ago
I think this inverts cause and effect: they often were money lenders because they were excluded from more traditional jobs and/or land ownership
- ahartmetz 2y ago
  It's not inversion, but not going for a root cause far enough. You are of course right. Jews were not allowed to pursue most/all "honorable" professions.
- disgruntledphd2 2y ago
  It's because Christians and Muslims banned lending money with interest, cf usury.
- Yawrehto 2y ago
  I thought deicide and a general concept of 'otherness' fueled antisemitic restrictions which in turn fueled antisemitism. But yes, Jews were often moneylenders because there were no other options available and that niche was conveniently not open to Christians.

wwtrv 2y ago

> To be blunt, if that hadn't happened, the Jews would have probably disappeared into the general European population by the 15th Century That seems like a bizarre claim... If anything the attacks, discrimination etc. would have encouraged assimilation. Voluntary conversion to Christianity wasn't particularly uncommon either (forced violent conversion also occurred). Even when national governments started expelling their entire Jewish populations staying and getting to keep all of your property ussually was an option. Yet most chose to leave rather than convert. Yes, converted Jews might have faced discrimination and even violence (this depended a lot on the willingness to abandon your old customs and practices and varied hugely based on time and place, but seemingly became a bigger issue at the very end of the middle ages) but ussually they managed to more or less fully assimilate in a few generations.

noduerme 2y ago
I see where you're coming from, because it sounds logical to someone who isn't part of an oppressed minority. But for the past 2500 years, religious Jews have felt threatened by the real possibility that less religious Jews would succumb to the easy life of assimilation that came with Helenization, Romanization, Germanization, etc. There is indeed a core that won't succumb to conversion in exchange for a place in the prevailing society, which is why Jews still exist in societies that have made it the slightest bit difficult for Jews to integrate. But contrast that with, for instance, Kaifeng[0]. The biggest fear of Jewish believers is that they will encounter a society like America or China which swallows their talents whole and integrates them fully. Put another way, it is a fear right now in segments of the Jewish community that without antisemitism, Jews would cease to exist. And there is a truth to this borne out by history. In Jewish communities it is practically taken for granted that if we had been treated equally, most of us would have given up our identity ages ago. [0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaifeng_Jews https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaifeng_Jews
- marnett 2y ago
  I’ve never heard of the Kaifeng Jewish diaspora. Thanks for sharing!
- 2y ago

agumonkey 2y ago

Sorry but I don't even need rumors about gypsies, as a kid some were schooled during months of winter, and they were .. surprisingly creative when it comes to harming you (and I'm being polite here). I know gypsy culture is also bringing beautiful music, and some are hard working people touring the country during the summer, but really you don't need to go far to have evidence of issues still existing to this day.

Tao3300 2y ago
That's what we call racism. Even if the anecdotes are from your own experience, you're still drawing broad ethnic conclusions from them. What do we call anonymous stories, lacking in detail, being circulated in a public forum? Yes, those are rumors.
- agumonkey 2y ago
  This is seriously frightening almost to the point of gaslighting I'd say. As a sidenote: you're saying I lied to spread rumors ?
  - Tao3300 2y ago
    I'm saying it was an anonymous story, lacking verifiable detail, spread in a public forum. Whether it's your personal truth or not is irrelevant to the fact that it's a rumor by definition. Are you scared of definitions? Do you feel like dictionaries are written to gaslight you? Don't blow it out of proportion.
    - agumonkey 2y ago
      > A piece of unverified information of uncertain origin usually spread by word of mouth. - origin: me - spread by word of mouth: no It is gaslighting to negate someone's experience.
- pezezin 2y ago
  Have you ever lived in Europe and had to deal with gypsies? If not, please don't talk about what you don't know.