5 ms·

You may throw a Godwin point as introduction, it doesn't change the fact that some groups indeed doesn't integrate well into France. And this is despite billion

by gwervc 2y ago

You may throw a Godwin point as introduction, it doesn't change the fact that some groups indeed doesn't integrate well into France. And this is despite billions of welfare money given for housing, free education, free access to health, etc. You mentioned Gypsies, well I read scholarly work stating that they were warmly welcomed 4 centuries ago in the towns of my region, until people discovered a tendency of their purses to disappear. Yes, the same exact complains that some French have nowadays. At some point facts are facts, and victimization doesn't work. For the record, a lot of other nationalities blended without issues within two generations (Portugese, Polonese, Vietnamese, etc.)

margalabargala 2y ago
It sounds from your comment that you are from Europe, but if you visit the US, you should travel to the south, find some white conservatives, and discuss black people. They will make astonishingly similar points to the ones you brought up, you'll find you and they have a lot in common.
- gottorf 2y ago
  For what it's worth, I'm a nonwhite immigrant living in a Deep South state, with experience living in more liberal coastal metropolitan areas. You will find that whites and blacks are much better integrated with each other in the south, and that racism runs deeper up north. For example, it's widely known among black professional athletes that the most racist city to play in is Boston.
Tao3300 2y ago
And that's what we call racism. > scholarly work stating that they were warmly welcomed 4 centuries ago Yeah, that doesn't sound legit. Any general sentiment from that time period is lost, and the best your scholar can do is project the lens of the present onto sources from the past. To be fair, all histories are done that way.
- goatlover 2y ago
  That's not true. The best scholars can do is figure out the lens the past sources were using, given the historical record about the time period. Take for example contemporary scholarship and the historical Jesus. It's now understood Jesus was a 2nd Temple apocalyptic Jew. Something nobody is today, since 2nd Temple Judaism and it's sects were replaced by Rabbinic Judaism, and Christianity went in it's own direction.
noduerme 2y ago
Everywhere in Europe that welcomed Jews, their neighbors attacked them whenever the Plague came around, blaming them for poisoning wells. To be blunt, if that hadn't happened, the Jews would have probably disappeared into the general European population by the 15th Century. So you are supporting the point that village rumors led to a situation of permanent exclusion for Gypsies.
- rapsey 2y ago
  Jews were money lenders, which inherently instills a level of hatred.
  - ekianjo 2y ago
    not all jews though. Most of them were, I believe, middle class workers. You can see that from the meaning of their last names in the places they originate from.
  - noduerme 2y ago
    Jews were not allowed to own land or engage in trades. What they did have was an ethnic/family presence across national boundaries, which placed a few of them in a unique position to negotiate on behalf of their lords and kings. This led to a condition where a small fraction of Jews became essential to European diplomacy, and subsequently became movers of money. That plus the Christian ban on moneylending and the need for liquidity nonetheless. Those wealthy "court Jews" largely converted to Christianity and assimilated, leaving their poorer brethren to die in pogroms and the Holocaust, while serving as the proof of blame for Jewish conspiracy at the same time.
    - oooyay 2y ago
      Honestly it shocks me how unaware people are of some of this stuff and I thought I lived under somewhat of a rock.
      - delta_p_delta_x 2y ago
Seattle3503 2y ago
> And this is despite billions of welfare money given for housing, free education, free access to health, etc. This assumes those things help one integrate. The Unites States notably doesn't have these things to the same degree that countries in Europe do. This means immigrants in America need to work. And work is a strong forcing function for socialization and integration. > You mentioned Gypsies, well I read scholarly work stating that they were warmly welcomed 4 centuries ago in the towns of my region, until people discovered a tendency of their purses to disappear. Do you have a citation for that?
- Shaanie 2y ago
  America also just have way fewer refugees. Seems like it's around 60k a year, so less than 0.02% of the population per year. Sweden, for example, has had around 26k refugees per year (the last 10 years), which is around 0.2% of its population. At its peak Sweden almost took on a full 1% in one year. Of course it's easier to integrate a magnitude fewer refugees, and there will be less issues overall.
  - Seattle3503 2y ago
    That's true as well economic migrants are very different from refugees. The US is experiencing this more recently with refugees from Venezuela.
  - oezi 2y ago
    Oh, I always thought it is around 500k illegal immigrants per year in the US (these aren't considered refugees I guess)
    - weweweoo 2y ago
      The illegal migrants coming to the US know they have to work if they wish to eat. Meanwhile, coming to Sweden has been just a ticket to easy life, where you get free housing and money, but will be probably excluded from the job market unless you learn the language and get several years of education. So, in practice the two phenomena are very different.

by gwervc 2y ago

margalabargala 2y ago

It sounds from your comment that you are from Europe, but if you visit the US, you should travel to the south, find some white conservatives, and discuss black people. They will make astonishingly similar points to the ones you brought up, you'll find you and they have a lot in common.

gottorf 2y ago
For what it's worth, I'm a nonwhite immigrant living in a Deep South state, with experience living in more liberal coastal metropolitan areas. You will find that whites and blacks are much better integrated with each other in the south, and that racism runs deeper up north. For example, it's widely known among black professional athletes that the most racist city to play in is Boston.

Tao3300 2y ago

And that's what we call racism. > scholarly work stating that they were warmly welcomed 4 centuries ago Yeah, that doesn't sound legit. Any general sentiment from that time period is lost, and the best your scholar can do is project the lens of the present onto sources from the past. To be fair, all histories are done that way.

goatlover 2y ago
That's not true. The best scholars can do is figure out the lens the past sources were using, given the historical record about the time period. Take for example contemporary scholarship and the historical Jesus. It's now understood Jesus was a 2nd Temple apocalyptic Jew. Something nobody is today, since 2nd Temple Judaism and it's sects were replaced by Rabbinic Judaism, and Christianity went in it's own direction.

noduerme 2y ago

Everywhere in Europe that welcomed Jews, their neighbors attacked them whenever the Plague came around, blaming them for poisoning wells. To be blunt, if that hadn't happened, the Jews would have probably disappeared into the general European population by the 15th Century. So you are supporting the point that village rumors led to a situation of permanent exclusion for Gypsies.

rapsey 2y ago
Jews were money lenders, which inherently instills a level of hatred.
- ekianjo 2y ago
  not all jews though. Most of them were, I believe, middle class workers. You can see that from the meaning of their last names in the places they originate from.
- noduerme 2y ago
  Jews were not allowed to own land or engage in trades. What they did have was an ethnic/family presence across national boundaries, which placed a few of them in a unique position to negotiate on behalf of their lords and kings. This led to a condition where a small fraction of Jews became essential to European diplomacy, and subsequently became movers of money. That plus the Christian ban on moneylending and the need for liquidity nonetheless. Those wealthy "court Jews" largely converted to Christianity and assimilated, leaving their poorer brethren to die in pogroms and the Holocaust, while serving as the proof of blame for Jewish conspiracy at the same time.
  - oooyay 2y ago
    Honestly it shocks me how unaware people are of some of this stuff and I thought I lived under somewhat of a rock.
    - delta_p_delta_x 2y ago

Seattle3503 2y ago

> And this is despite billions of welfare money given for housing, free education, free access to health, etc. This assumes those things help one integrate. The Unites States notably doesn't have these things to the same degree that countries in Europe do. This means immigrants in America need to work. And work is a strong forcing function for socialization and integration. > You mentioned Gypsies, well I read scholarly work stating that they were warmly welcomed 4 centuries ago in the towns of my region, until people discovered a tendency of their purses to disappear. Do you have a citation for that?

Shaanie 2y ago
America also just have way fewer refugees. Seems like it's around 60k a year, so less than 0.02% of the population per year. Sweden, for example, has had around 26k refugees per year (the last 10 years), which is around 0.2% of its population. At its peak Sweden almost took on a full 1% in one year. Of course it's easier to integrate a magnitude fewer refugees, and there will be less issues overall.
- Seattle3503 2y ago
  That's true as well economic migrants are very different from refugees. The US is experiencing this more recently with refugees from Venezuela.
- oezi 2y ago
  Oh, I always thought it is around 500k illegal immigrants per year in the US (these aren't considered refugees I guess)
  - weweweoo 2y ago
    The illegal migrants coming to the US know they have to work if they wish to eat. Meanwhile, coming to Sweden has been just a ticket to easy life, where you get free housing and money, but will be probably excluded from the job market unless you learn the language and get several years of education. So, in practice the two phenomena are very different.