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> I'm not concerned about the crime You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. The author of the article you linked to also exhorts the Som

> I'm not concerned about the crime You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. The author of the article you linked to also exhorts the Somali immigrant community to not engage in crime. > because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency until the 2nd and 3rd generation is able to make it into established society. History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups aren't able to integrate with the host society after multiple generations, and remain ghettoized with low employment and high crime rates (vastly higher than the native population, for certain categories of crime). It's clear that the national interest is in accepting skilled immigrants who migrate legally and are able to integrate fully into the host society, a la Teddy Roosevelt's dropping of the hyphen. It is not desirable to have separate ethnic groups who "share the same language, culture and faith" distinct from the mainstream.

spamizbad 2y ago
> History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups aren't able to integrate with the host society after multiple generations, and remain ghettoized with low employment and high crime rates (vastly higher, for certain categories of crime). I'm not sure that's true. For example, in the United States, it took numerous generations of German-Americans to fully integrate into society, with towns in Wisconsin speaking a dialect of German well into the 1940s. Despite this lack of cultural integration, these cities experienced very little crime.
- gottorf 2y ago
  Different immigrant groups have better or worse outcomes, hence my saying "some immigrant groups". The cultural distance between the English progenitors of the US to the large wave of German immigrants in the 1800s is not as great as, say, that of Turkish immigrants to Germany post-WW2, or Syrian immigrants to contemporary Denmark. Another way to look at it is that immigrant groups bring parts of their old world with them; German-Americans left a high-social-trust, low-crime culture and established it in their new country.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    You can see this with Italian immigrants to America. I’m in New Jersey right now, and recently was in Wyoming. These are obviously not the same people despite being “white.” They’re more different than Pakistanis and Bangladeshis and we fought a war to be separate from each other.
  - spamizbad 2y ago
    > German-Americans left a high-social-trust, low-crime culture Did they? I can't speak to the crime rate of the German empire, but a very common reason to immigrate, in addition to availability of farm land, was to avoid the draft (low social trust). The slow rate of assimilation is also a signal that these were not people coming from a "high-social-trust" background.
- zozbot234 2y ago
  WWI also forced the issue in a way that hasn't quite applied to other "ethnic" folks in the US. German immigrants, by and large, have been pushed towards forgetting their national culture altogether and assimilating into a newly-manufactured (by early 20th-century Progressives, no less), unified "White" identity.
  - deaddodo 2y ago
    There was as much (more, even) pressure on the Italians and Irish to do the same. But, to add to and enforce OP's point, their cultures were a larger schism away and they instead held on and entrenched their identities (to their objective detriment, no matter your moral stance). Meanwhile, Anglo, Franco, German, Dutch, etc cultures all kind of melded into the early "White American" identity; due to the general ease of assimilation.
    - foobarian 2y ago
      How much difference is there, really, between various European nationalities? They are all white and Christian, using similar language and script, mostly the difference is in the Christian denomination.
      - mongol 2y ago
        Similar language is a stretch. Sure, European languages have similar roots, if you go enough far back. But the ability to speak your native language with a fellow European of another nationality, and have a fluent conversation, is quite limited.
      - FredPret 2y ago
        About 1000x more than the difference between US states
      - bavell 2y ago
        I guess you could ask the same question of the middle eastern countries. Pretty reductive perspective, no?
bryanlarsen 2y ago
Crime among immigrants is largely correlated with unemployment rates. European countries with immigrant crime problems have high unemployment rates, the US does not.
- hurril 2y ago
  This is not a good explanation without also looking at who is unemployed. In Sweden, the unemployment is low:ish but it is basically non-existent with the natives, but very high among immigrants. So it might be true that crime correlates with unemployment rates, but Sweden does not have a high unemployment.
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    Canada has a much higher middle Eastern population than Sweden. Canada does not have a middle Eastern crime problem nor a middle Eastern unemployment problem. I imagine the biggest difference is that the core of this group has been in Canada for almost 50 years.
    - hurril 2y ago
      Much bigger per capita?
ponector 2y ago
Some are unable, other groups are successfully integrating. Like Ukrainian refugees into neighboring European countries, especially Poland.
- mrybczyn 2y ago
  Ukrainians integrating into Polish culture is similar to the East and West German unification post wall, only more complicated by a few extra generations...
  - ponector 2y ago
    Did western and eastern Germans had different languages? Different alfabet? Different religion? Better comparison is to protestant Germans with Catholic French people.
dakiol 2y ago
> It is not desirable to have separate ethnic groups who "share the same language, culture and faith" distinct from the mainstream. Why not? Mainstreams are temporary. The Romans shifted from pagans to christians in just a decade (officially speaking). The German speaking region of Belgium was annexed in the 1900s (now the country has 3 different official languages). The whole latin america started speaking Spanish long before they became actual countries. Spain was mostly muslim for over 700 years. There’s no mainstream. We are always changing and the mix is always better.
- mrbombastic 2y ago
  How do you define better if there is no mainstream culture?
- guille_ 2y ago
  Not every culture can integrate, not every culture is a step "forward". Also, your examples are quite weak 1. Paganism was not doing too well by the time Christianity became official. 2. Belgium is a joke country (sorry!) that still has a divided population based on the language they speak. Hardly a success case. 3. Americans speaking Spanish also resulted in losing native languages and cultures. It might be okay to accept it, but the implications in your case are obvious, and it definitely would deserve a fair bit of debate whether we're okay with that. 4. Right, because the Reconquista was famously a period of peace and prosperity... If these are the arguments FOR massive immigration then don't be surprised the vast majority of the public is against it.
  - dakiol 2y ago
    I don’t know man. This idea of certain cultures being so distant that they cannot be integrated with others sounds a bit alien to me. If anything, we (all the different cultures in this planet) are the result of a vast amount of mixing over the centuries. We probably don’t notice it anymore (proof that the mix has worked wonders) and we think we all are so good because “our” culture, “our” values. I mean, if something so profound such as religion was literally imported to America, anything is possible. Sometimes I wish we were invaded by aliens 100% different from us in every aspect, so that we realised once and for all that we all humans just are and feel the same.
GolfPopper 2y ago
"The mythical tie between immigration and crime"[1] 1. https://siepr.stanford.edu/news/mythical-tie-between-immigration-and-crime https://siepr.stanford.edu/news/mythical-tie-between-immigra...
- gottorf 2y ago
  As far as I understand it, this study is of limited use in discussing today's illegal immigration wave because of two reasons: one, it does not distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants; and two, it does not distinguish between the incentives driving immigrants before the establishment of the welfare state and those thereafter. It stands to obvious reason that an invited houseguest is better-behaved than one that jumped the fence to be there, and doubly so if there is free cake being served. Any claims to the contrary need to examine the two groups separately.
  - throwaway4220 2y ago
    Again, laying low is what illegal immigrants do. What “free cake” do illegal immigrants get? Shelter and food? Just look at Georgia’s law a few years ago where they enforced strict paperwork with the threat of arresting the employer - probably the worst productive year for agriculture because they didn’t have cheap labor to rely on. Enforce deportation to the greatest extent possible but be prepared to pay for it.
alluro2 2y ago
Yeah, but it seems like some nations are only willing to invest a low amount of effort in it working out. I.e. if you're highly educated skilled worker who will integrate on their own, great. If you're a manual laborer who will do the work no one wants, for less money, pay tax and integrate their kids, great. But if the host society needs to invest in their education, social programs and integration, then screw it, let them ghettoise and hope the resulting jump in nationalism and animosity towards them will balance things out.
- HPsquared 2y ago
  If there are all those externalities, the "for less money" part is a bit weak.
Xen9 2y ago
Slightly tangentially, there exists huge amount of immigration studies that have failed (intently or not) to take confounders into account :(
noduerme 2y ago
> various European nations [...] some immigrant groups American Jew here, who spent years living in France and Spain. I've heard the same polite euphemisms refering to Arabs and Gypsies from the mouths of members of the Front National. You know, before 1945 it was said in Europe that Jews weren't able to integrate fully with the host society. One might ask: Was that the Jews' fault? Or the host society's fault? It's a relevant question. You are blaming it on the particular group of migrants involved in the case of Europe right now. But historically Europe has ghettoized other groups. When the US ghettoized Chinese economic migrants, American politicians claimed they could never integrate. And yet the Chinese-American population is well integrated and hugely successful since the host society allowed it. Same with Jews in America, and increasingly with Hispanics. Why is it that economic migrants do, after a few generations, become successfully integrated in America, while they tend not to in Europe? I don't think the evidence definitively supports the conclusion that it's down to which group. Europe has a problem with integration that has its roots in the ethnic character of its states (something America does not have), in deep-seated xenophobia that causes social exclusion of immigrant or out-groups, and in the fact that its states' reasons for existence are based on tribal boundaries and wars for territory rather than on achieving broader democratic and economic flourishing by harnessing the capability of the whole population. And thus Europe presents neither a dream of integration nor a path toward integration (as in, "to become American"; there is neither an equivalent aspiration nor option "to become French"). And then, once again, Europe blames the groups it refuses to accept.
- southernplaces7 2y ago
  >I don't think the evidence definitively supports the conclusion that it's down to which group. Europe has a problem with integration that has its roots in the ethnic character of its states (something America does not have), in deep-seated xenophobia that causes social exclusion of immigrant or out-groups, and in the fact that its states' reasons for existence are based on tribal boundaries and wars for territory rather than on achieving broader democratic and economic flourishing by harnessing the capability of the whole population. And thus Europe presents neither a dream of integration nor a path toward integration (as in, "to become American"; there is neither an equivalent aspiration nor option "to become French"). And then, once again, Europe blames the groups it refuses to accept. Strongly agreed on most of these points. The U.S. on the one hand, for all the accusations of racism leveled against it (sometimes rightly) is generally very accepting towards immigrants and integrates them with surprisingly little xenophobia after a while. The U.S. has been doing this for many generations across many different ethnic groups and almost universally, after a couple or more generations, they identify more as americans than as members of their culture of origin, by far. Historically there has been tension and racism throughout this process but it tends to fade and millions of people of many ethnicities join the American mainstream remarkably well. Also, it helps that American society and culture are extremely charismatic in the eyes of much of the world in a way that powerfully encourages the desire to integrate among immigrants, and especially their kids. Most European societies don't have either of the above traits nearly as much as the U.S.
aussieguy1234 2y ago
Australia has a large number of ethnic groups, media and the far right claims similar issues. Using statistics on the background of prisoners, in Australia, most non-white ethnic groups have lower representation in prison compared to their percentage of the population when compared to white Australians. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime
- thegrim33 2y ago
  I wanted to verify the claim from your post/wikipedia link, as I don't believe it's true, but it's kind of a shame that wikipedia accepts a link to a 238 page report as the citation for a claim. It should at least refer to a specific page or section in the report. I don't want to hunt through hundreds of pages of this report to verify the claim. The report also doesn't have any sort of "conclusions" section so there's no quick way to even verify that the report is saying what they claim it's saying, let alone find the data behind the claim. However, I did a quick search for every sentence containing the word Australia, and found nothing that seemed to back up the claim.
  - nmfisher 2y ago
    This definitely wasn't true when I was researching during university (~2005). That was obviously a long time ago, so it's very plausible that things have changed. However, I'd want to see some very well-vetted data to believe it.
  - zapperdulchen 2y ago
    According to this statistic https://www.statista.com/statistics/1411761/australia-share-of-indigenous-prisoners-by-state-or-territory/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1411761/australia-share-... Indigenous Australians are significantly overrepresented in the prison population. As of 2022, Indigenous Australians made up 31.8% of the prison population, despite constituting only about 3.3% of the total population. Because of this massive overrepresentation, it might well be that other non-white ethnic groups are underrepresented. It's statistic and doesn't tell why one minority ends up in jail so often.
39896880 2y ago
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- deleted 2y ago
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- hollerith 2y ago
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  - 39896880 2y ago
    Of course there’s a risk of negative consequences. In fact, the US experiences many of them. But, it ultimately ends up stronger.
    - deleted 2y ago
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- rayiner 2y ago
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  - 39896880 2y ago
    Lesser? The US is the largest economy in the history of the world. And military. It is responsible for brokering and maintaining the freest, most prosperous time in history — the post WWII globalization. Oh, here’s where I’ll be a little less, er, academic — as someone who lives in a city shaped by the influx of Irish and Italian immigrants - fuck out of here with “lesser”.
    - pcwalton 2y ago
      Yeah, it's probably the worst comment I've ever seen Rayiner write. (This is the nicest way I can word this comment; it'd be impossible for me to say what I really feel about that insult to my heritage without breaking the site guidelines.) Irish people such as my ancestors fought and died for America in WWII. They were among the finest patriots who served the country.
rgbrenner 2y ago
European nations suggest that some immigrant groups aren't able to integrate with the host society after multiple generations You as an American can move to France, and you'll never be considered French. Doesn't matter if you speak french every day for the rest of your life with the most perfect French accent the world has ever heard. And if you and your American wife have kids in France after living in France for 20 years, your kid isn't French either.. even if he lives there for another 80 years. Better hope your kid finds a french wife, or his kids won't be french either. The idea that you move to a country and you're one of them is an American concept.
- thatfrenchguy 2y ago
  > And if you and your American wife have kids in France after living in France for 20 years, your kid isn't French either This is so untrue it's almost ridiculous
- TimTheTinker 2y ago
  French society values immigrants who integrate far more over those who do not. Macron's hand-wringing and the 2021 Separatism law are two concrete examples.
- Aeglaecia 2y ago
  it would be polite to act magnanimously in stating that America is not the only country with this behaviour, really I'm glad to see that the American god complex affects those across all walks of life
  - 1992spacemovie 2y ago
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    - Aeglaecia 2y ago
      ah yes nit picking language my favorite counter argument
    - 2y ago
michaelmrose 2y ago
Those voters concerns aren't driven by the actuality of social issues with the integration of Somalis they are largely driven by racism and fantasy while on the overall actual crime continues to decline.
TMWNN 2y ago
>History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups aren't able to integrate with the host society after multiple generations, and remain ghettoized with low employment and high crime rates (vastly higher than the native population, for certain categories of crime). Twice as many Britons joined ISIS as served in the British military. <https://www.newsweek.com/twice-many-british-muslims-fighting-isis-armed-forces-265865 https://www.newsweek.com/twice-many-british-muslims-fighting...> The new ISIS members are not first-generation recent arrivals; they are the children and grandchildren of those who arrived decades ago.
BenFranklin100 2y ago
The US is not Europe. The US is singular in its ability to assimilate immigrants. It is our superpower.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  Canada? NZ? Australia? Netherlands? Brazil?
BenFranklin100 2y ago
If voters are concerned about crime, then the need to educated that immigrants, even illegal immigrants, have crime rates about the same as Americans at large.
- roamerz 2y ago
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  - Nasrudith 2y ago
    If we are applying that emotionally charged nonsense as a standard then why not apply the same standard to the victims of police murders and conclude that the police need deported? Or exilr all doctors given the number of molesters among them?
    - roamerz 2y ago
      >> If we are applying that emotionally charged nonsense.. I don’t see how that is emotionally charged. The simple fact is Jocelyn Nungaray would likely be alive today if that person had been prevented from illegally crossing the border. Your other argument is irrelevant to my point that if border laws were enforced the crime could not have occurred in the first place.
  - kjkjadksj 2y ago
    Oh come on. Every human population has insane people. Lets not bite hook line and sinker into conservative biases.
- rangestransform 2y ago
  Because legal immigrants are both pre-filtered and have something to lose, it’s more reasonable to take the approach that one crime is too many with immigration, rather than comparing with the crime rate of society at large.
  - BenFranklin100 2y ago
mlyle 2y ago
> You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. So, if we're concerned about crime, let's create a set of laws where we can A) get the immigrants we need for demographic and workforce reasons, but B) where we can actually screen and be selective. Plugging our ears and relying upon illegal migrants isn't going to result in good outcomes. > It is not desirable to have separate ethnic groups who "share the same language, culture and faith" distinct from the mainstream. The desirable place is somewhere in the middle. We benefit from distinct identities and varied culture, but we also need to reach enough of a common ground to pull as one nation and for two random people to be able to get along meaningfully. A whole lot of joys that I experience in life come from the ways we're varied, but breaking into enclaves would prevent those joys and weaken us. We tend to reach various kinds of overreactions. Respect for diversity is great, but not to the point to completely reject integration. The avoidance of appropriation-- avoiding adopting traditions of another culture without attribution or respect-- is important, but not to the extent that it prevents mixing or getting along.
webninja 2y ago
You have a wonderful skill at keeping the temperature down on hot issues. I know a simple upvote would suffice but I wanted to drop a compliment here regarding this talent of yours.
armchairhacker 2y ago
> History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups aren't able to integrate with the host society after multiple generations... I wish we as a society could focus on people, not ethnic groups. Deport people who can't assimilate, keep those who can. Figure out more accurate ways to determine who is who then skin color (or even things like personal taste). Some stereotypes are backed by statistics, but there's a reason why all stereotypes are bad.
scrubs 2y ago
I support immigration. I know a ton of university educated parents who either came here so or paid msrp price at American universities to get their education. And their kids all went to American universities. Through undergrad they got no free rides or scholarships either. They're smart and went to places like Emory or CMU. But why is so damn hard to also solidly insist on an orderly border? The US is a proper country with borders. It cannot be if you shoot or sneak in you're served like the wilds of old western bar frontier living. That's not operationally effective. I want both. It's congress far, far, far more than any president that is responsible for taking a 0 on all this.
baby 2y ago
> It is not desirable to have separate ethnic groups who "share the same language, culture and faith" distinct from the mainstream. How so? Short term or long term?
stouset 2y ago
> You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. Then I have great news for them! Immigrants to the U.S. are responsible for fewer crimes per capita than native-born Americans.
- gottorf 2y ago
  To my knowledge, there is no version of this claim that distinguishes between illegal and legal immigrants. (I'd be happy to be proven wrong.) In fact, it would be silly to claim that illegal immigrants as a group commit fewer crimes per capita than natives, since 100% of them have already violated laws by being on US soil to begin with. Legal immigrants, on the other hand, are absolutely less likely to engage in criminal behavior than the general population, because they are both selected for positive traits as well as knowing that a criminal record will jeopardize their chances of citizenship.
  - throwaway4220 2y ago
    Whoa there - by your logic illegal immigrants should also keep their head down so they don’t get deported. Also, how are legal immigrants “selected for positive traits”?
    - deleted 2y ago
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- bavell 2y ago
  Citations/sources conspicuously absent. If you go far back enough, just about the entire population of the US could be considered immigrants. Which wave of immigrants are you referring to? Are you including petty crimes in your claim or just the more serious ones?
jollofricepeas 2y ago
In the US and Canada: All mass influxes of immigrant communities will have some crime element initially due to poverty and discrimination. This is normal and should be expected. It’s a part of the integration process over initial generations. For the US, you can trace the phenomena to the influx of Irish Catholics in the early 1800s and from there to… Eastern European Jews, Italians, Armenians, Russians, Cubans, Chinese, Indians, Puerto-Ricans, Dominicans, Central Americans, Nigerians, Somalians and other immigrant communities.
dachworker 2y ago
You cannot use Europe as an example, because, it might surprise you, but European cultures are vastly different from American culture. A lot of the marginalized groups in Europe, have no problem integrating in the US. And to put the blame of lack of integration purely on the immigrant group is very disingenuous when you have all these far-right political parties openly showing their colours and saying matter of fact that they do not want any foreigners, including legal ones, including educated ones. And finally, what's the link between integration and crime? I don't see the connection. If anything, the people who are least integrated are the ones who are the most law abiding. The lead a pious life according to their faith. They aren't the ones going around dealing drugs in night clubs. Those drug dealers are much more integrated in the host culture. After all drug consumption is very European.
- gottorf 2y ago
  > And finally, what's the link between integration and crime? I don't see the connection. Here's some data from Denmark[0], for example, that breaks down various statistics for different immigrant groups in Denmark. I take it as axiomatic that immigrants from other Western countries are better integrated to Danish society than those from farther-away (culturally speaking) places[1]. You can see that as a group, immigrants from majority Muslim countries are very strongly overrepresented in violent crime. > to put the blame of lack of integration purely on the immigrant group is very disingenuous Modern immigration isn't slavery, where someone was forcibly brought to a new land against their will. Nobody has a right to be in any country they please, other than their home. So it follows that the onus is on immigrants to assimilate to the laws and cultures of the country they voluntarily chose to go to. Of course, it would be welcoming of the host country to facilitate that process, but I don't see that as being obligatory. [0]: https://inquisitivebird.substack.com/p/the-effects-of-immigration-in-denmark https://inquisitivebird.substack.com/p/the-effects-of-immigr... [1]: Of course, you may disagree, but I would regard that as a strange position needing a stout defense.
f6v 2y ago
> History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups aren't able to integrate with the host society after multiple generations This might be true, but some European countries are notoriously hard to integrate. The situation could be vastly different in societies that aren’t monocultural, e.g. USA.
WilTimSon 2y ago
> History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups aren't able to integrate with the host society after multiple generations, and remain ghettoized with low employment and high crime rates (vastly higher than the native population, for certain categories of crime). Does it suggest that, though? It suggests that, in the specific conditions that were presented to those groups, they turned to crime. However, we can't pretend that the previous generations of immigrants had exclusively good experiences and quality of life, even in Europe. Obviously, some countries tried their best but in the past decades we had far less experience on proper integration (we as in the collective we, no country has worked out some perfect plan on it). In fact, certain countries specifically created neighbourhoods (ghettos) for immigrant populations, all with positive intentions. Can't really blame the migrants for then becoming "ghettoized" in such a scenario. Granted, I know of other countries that specifically did not do that and still had struggles, which just goes to show how the whole thing is a minefield, where good intentions can clash with harsh reality.
iudqnolq 2y ago
Interestingly various European nations turn out to be a poor comparison group for the United States. No one has conclusively determined why yet, but we know there's a strong correlation between a country having English as the primary language and immigrants integrating well. This is especially true for second-generation immigrants. First generation immigrants are general less likely to commit crimes, but in countries like Germany and France the rate rises significantly with the second generation. That doesn't happen in the US or Canada, for example. The children of immigrants in English speaking countries tend to do better financially than their parents whereas in many non-english speaking European countries the children of immigrants slide into poverty. Edit: Here's a related article with some charts illustrating the correlation https://www.ft.com/content/c6bb7307-484c-4076-a0f3-fc2aeb0b6112 https://www.ft.com/content/c6bb7307-484c-4076-a0f3-fc2aeb0b6...
- mk89 2y ago
  There are only 3 or 4 countries in the west having English as their main language. What about UK, how did that work out for them? I can't see the charts.
  - iudqnolq 2y ago
    The UK has significantly better integration than the continent in line with the other Anglosphere countries. I agree it's not enough evidence for anything conclusive. But I think it's enough evidence to say arguing about what will happen to the US based only on Sweden data is unsound.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > No one has conclusively determined why yet Ask immigrants or the children of immigrants (like me). Western Europe are just extremely insular and passive aggressive and will gladly bury their head in the sand regarding their own racism. Anglo countries at least tried to tackle racism by introducing education about racism (eg. Civil Rights Movement in US, Aboriginal Rights Movement in Australia, First Nation's Movement and racial quotas in Canada, the anti-Skinhead movement and the trade union lead anti-racism movement in the UK) and trying to build an identity that trascends race or ethnicity. Similar movements happened in mainland Europe as well, but aren't taught about, so mainland Europeans remain insular in their mindset.
jppittma 2y ago
Why stop at the country level? We could just as easily have ethnic and cultural homogeneity on a global level. We'd have much lower crime and higher employment if all culture world-wide were homogenous. No ghettoized countries and such. /s
KennyBlanken 2y ago
> You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. What voters are "concerned" about and "reality" tend to be highly divorced from each other these days. https://www.ojp.gov/library/publications/comparing-crime-rates-between-undocumented-immigrants-legal-immigrants-and https://www.ojp.gov/library/publications/comparing-crime-rat... > The study found that undocumented immigrants had substantially lower crime rates than native-born citizens and legal immigrants across a range of felony offenses. Relative to undocumented immigrants, U.S.-born citizens are over 2 times more likely to be arrested for violent crimes, 2.5 times more likely to be arrested for drug crimes, and over 4 times more likely to be arrested for property crimes. Would you prefer a conservative source? Here ya go. https://www.cato.org/blog/illegal-immigrants-have-low-homicide-conviction-rate-setting-record-straight-illegal-immigrant https://www.cato.org/blog/illegal-immigrants-have-low-homici... Conservative voters also think crime in general is spiraling out of control, because a certain fan of fake tanning products keeps shouting it to them. It's not even remotely true. Both violent and property crime have plunged for decades and by and large is still falling: https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2024/04/SR_24.04.23_crime_3.png https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2024... Hilariously, a significant uptick in homicides occurred during Fake Tanning Product's presidency, and it's dropped during Biden's: > In 2020, for example, the U.S. murder rate saw its largest single-year increase on record – and by 2022, it remained considerably higher than before the coronavirus pandemic. Preliminary data for 2023, however, suggests that the murder rate fell substantially last year. Voters were also 'concerned' Democrats were running a pedo ring out of a pizza shop basement. That pizza shop does not even have a basement. By your logic, we should be hiring more FBI agents to inspect pizza shops looking for pedo rings because "voters are concerned" and writing legislation that requires pizza shop owners get CORI checks. > History and data from various European nations Why are you using historical data from another continent that is very different culturally, when there's data from the US Undocumented migrants and immigrants in the US commit half the crime US citizens do. Probably because they're here to work to do things like send money home, and so they're keeping their heads down (not to mention, busy working...) I already provided a study, but here's more about the issue. The Brennan Center article includes links to numerous studies refuting your claims. The evidence is overwhelmingly conclusive: immigrants, documented or not, commit significantly fewer crimes per capita than US citizens. https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/debunking-myth-migrant-crime-wave https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/debu... https://www.npr.org/2024/03/08/1237103158/immigrants-are-less-likely-to-commit-crimes-than-us-born-americans-studies-find https://www.npr.org/2024/03/08/1237103158/immigrants-are-les... https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2024/03/immigrants-are-significantly-less-likely-to-commit-crimes-than-the-us-born/ https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2024/03/immigrants-are... https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/03/01/undocumented-immigrant-crime-rate-not-higher/72788637007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/...
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spamizbad 2y ago

> History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups aren't able to integrate with the host society after multiple generations, and remain ghettoized with low employment and high crime rates (vastly higher, for certain categories of crime). I'm not sure that's true. For example, in the United States, it took numerous generations of German-Americans to fully integrate into society, with towns in Wisconsin speaking a dialect of German well into the 1940s. Despite this lack of cultural integration, these cities experienced very little crime.

gottorf 2y ago
Different immigrant groups have better or worse outcomes, hence my saying "some immigrant groups". The cultural distance between the English progenitors of the US to the large wave of German immigrants in the 1800s is not as great as, say, that of Turkish immigrants to Germany post-WW2, or Syrian immigrants to contemporary Denmark. Another way to look at it is that immigrant groups bring parts of their old world with them; German-Americans left a high-social-trust, low-crime culture and established it in their new country.
- rayiner 2y ago
  You can see this with Italian immigrants to America. I’m in New Jersey right now, and recently was in Wyoming. These are obviously not the same people despite being “white.” They’re more different than Pakistanis and Bangladeshis and we fought a war to be separate from each other.
- spamizbad 2y ago
  > German-Americans left a high-social-trust, low-crime culture Did they? I can't speak to the crime rate of the German empire, but a very common reason to immigrate, in addition to availability of farm land, was to avoid the draft (low social trust). The slow rate of assimilation is also a signal that these were not people coming from a "high-social-trust" background.
zozbot234 2y ago
WWI also forced the issue in a way that hasn't quite applied to other "ethnic" folks in the US. German immigrants, by and large, have been pushed towards forgetting their national culture altogether and assimilating into a newly-manufactured (by early 20th-century Progressives, no less), unified "White" identity.
- deaddodo 2y ago
  There was as much (more, even) pressure on the Italians and Irish to do the same. But, to add to and enforce OP's point, their cultures were a larger schism away and they instead held on and entrenched their identities (to their objective detriment, no matter your moral stance). Meanwhile, Anglo, Franco, German, Dutch, etc cultures all kind of melded into the early "White American" identity; due to the general ease of assimilation.
  - foobarian 2y ago
    How much difference is there, really, between various European nationalities? They are all white and Christian, using similar language and script, mostly the difference is in the Christian denomination.
    - mongol 2y ago
      Similar language is a stretch. Sure, European languages have similar roots, if you go enough far back. But the ability to speak your native language with a fellow European of another nationality, and have a fluent conversation, is quite limited.
    - FredPret 2y ago
      About 1000x more than the difference between US states
    - bavell 2y ago
      I guess you could ask the same question of the middle eastern countries. Pretty reductive perspective, no?

bryanlarsen 2y ago

Crime among immigrants is largely correlated with unemployment rates. European countries with immigrant crime problems have high unemployment rates, the US does not.

hurril 2y ago
This is not a good explanation without also looking at who is unemployed. In Sweden, the unemployment is low:ish but it is basically non-existent with the natives, but very high among immigrants. So it might be true that crime correlates with unemployment rates, but Sweden does not have a high unemployment.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  Canada has a much higher middle Eastern population than Sweden. Canada does not have a middle Eastern crime problem nor a middle Eastern unemployment problem. I imagine the biggest difference is that the core of this group has been in Canada for almost 50 years.
  - hurril 2y ago
    Much bigger per capita?

ponector 2y ago

Some are unable, other groups are successfully integrating. Like Ukrainian refugees into neighboring European countries, especially Poland.

mrybczyn 2y ago
Ukrainians integrating into Polish culture is similar to the East and West German unification post wall, only more complicated by a few extra generations...
- ponector 2y ago
  Did western and eastern Germans had different languages? Different alfabet? Different religion? Better comparison is to protestant Germans with Catholic French people.

dakiol 2y ago

> It is not desirable to have separate ethnic groups who "share the same language, culture and faith" distinct from the mainstream. Why not? Mainstreams are temporary. The Romans shifted from pagans to christians in just a decade (officially speaking). The German speaking region of Belgium was annexed in the 1900s (now the country has 3 different official languages). The whole latin america started speaking Spanish long before they became actual countries. Spain was mostly muslim for over 700 years. There’s no mainstream. We are always changing and the mix is always better.

mrbombastic 2y ago
How do you define better if there is no mainstream culture?
guille_ 2y ago
Not every culture can integrate, not every culture is a step "forward". Also, your examples are quite weak 1. Paganism was not doing too well by the time Christianity became official. 2. Belgium is a joke country (sorry!) that still has a divided population based on the language they speak. Hardly a success case. 3. Americans speaking Spanish also resulted in losing native languages and cultures. It might be okay to accept it, but the implications in your case are obvious, and it definitely would deserve a fair bit of debate whether we're okay with that. 4. Right, because the Reconquista was famously a period of peace and prosperity... If these are the arguments FOR massive immigration then don't be surprised the vast majority of the public is against it.
- dakiol 2y ago
  I don’t know man. This idea of certain cultures being so distant that they cannot be integrated with others sounds a bit alien to me. If anything, we (all the different cultures in this planet) are the result of a vast amount of mixing over the centuries. We probably don’t notice it anymore (proof that the mix has worked wonders) and we think we all are so good because “our” culture, “our” values. I mean, if something so profound such as religion was literally imported to America, anything is possible. Sometimes I wish we were invaded by aliens 100% different from us in every aspect, so that we realised once and for all that we all humans just are and feel the same.

GolfPopper 2y ago

"The mythical tie between immigration and crime"[1] 1. https://siepr.stanford.edu/news/mythical-tie-between-immigration-and-crime https://siepr.stanford.edu/news/mythical-tie-between-immigra...

gottorf 2y ago
As far as I understand it, this study is of limited use in discussing today's illegal immigration wave because of two reasons: one, it does not distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants; and two, it does not distinguish between the incentives driving immigrants before the establishment of the welfare state and those thereafter. It stands to obvious reason that an invited houseguest is better-behaved than one that jumped the fence to be there, and doubly so if there is free cake being served. Any claims to the contrary need to examine the two groups separately.
- throwaway4220 2y ago
  Again, laying low is what illegal immigrants do. What “free cake” do illegal immigrants get? Shelter and food? Just look at Georgia’s law a few years ago where they enforced strict paperwork with the threat of arresting the employer - probably the worst productive year for agriculture because they didn’t have cheap labor to rely on. Enforce deportation to the greatest extent possible but be prepared to pay for it.

alluro2 2y ago

Yeah, but it seems like some nations are only willing to invest a low amount of effort in it working out. I.e. if you're highly educated skilled worker who will integrate on their own, great. If you're a manual laborer who will do the work no one wants, for less money, pay tax and integrate their kids, great. But if the host society needs to invest in their education, social programs and integration, then screw it, let them ghettoise and hope the resulting jump in nationalism and animosity towards them will balance things out.

HPsquared 2y ago
If there are all those externalities, the "for less money" part is a bit weak.

Xen9 2y ago

Slightly tangentially, there exists huge amount of immigration studies that have failed (intently or not) to take confounders into account :(

noduerme 2y ago

> various European nations [...] some immigrant groups American Jew here, who spent years living in France and Spain. I've heard the same polite euphemisms refering to Arabs and Gypsies from the mouths of members of the Front National. You know, before 1945 it was said in Europe that Jews weren't able to integrate fully with the host society. One might ask: Was that the Jews' fault? Or the host society's fault? It's a relevant question. You are blaming it on the particular group of migrants involved in the case of Europe right now. But historically Europe has ghettoized other groups. When the US ghettoized Chinese economic migrants, American politicians claimed they could never integrate. And yet the Chinese-American population is well integrated and hugely successful since the host society allowed it. Same with Jews in America, and increasingly with Hispanics. Why is it that economic migrants do, after a few generations, become successfully integrated in America, while they tend not to in Europe? I don't think the evidence definitively supports the conclusion that it's down to which group. Europe has a problem with integration that has its roots in the ethnic character of its states (something America does not have), in deep-seated xenophobia that causes social exclusion of immigrant or out-groups, and in the fact that its states' reasons for existence are based on tribal boundaries and wars for territory rather than on achieving broader democratic and economic flourishing by harnessing the capability of the whole population. And thus Europe presents neither a dream of integration nor a path toward integration (as in, "to become American"; there is neither an equivalent aspiration nor option "to become French"). And then, once again, Europe blames the groups it refuses to accept.

southernplaces7 2y ago
>I don't think the evidence definitively supports the conclusion that it's down to which group. Europe has a problem with integration that has its roots in the ethnic character of its states (something America does not have), in deep-seated xenophobia that causes social exclusion of immigrant or out-groups, and in the fact that its states' reasons for existence are based on tribal boundaries and wars for territory rather than on achieving broader democratic and economic flourishing by harnessing the capability of the whole population. And thus Europe presents neither a dream of integration nor a path toward integration (as in, "to become American"; there is neither an equivalent aspiration nor option "to become French"). And then, once again, Europe blames the groups it refuses to accept. Strongly agreed on most of these points. The U.S. on the one hand, for all the accusations of racism leveled against it (sometimes rightly) is generally very accepting towards immigrants and integrates them with surprisingly little xenophobia after a while. The U.S. has been doing this for many generations across many different ethnic groups and almost universally, after a couple or more generations, they identify more as americans than as members of their culture of origin, by far. Historically there has been tension and racism throughout this process but it tends to fade and millions of people of many ethnicities join the American mainstream remarkably well. Also, it helps that American society and culture are extremely charismatic in the eyes of much of the world in a way that powerfully encourages the desire to integrate among immigrants, and especially their kids. Most European societies don't have either of the above traits nearly as much as the U.S.

aussieguy1234 2y ago

Australia has a large number of ethnic groups, media and the far right claims similar issues. Using statistics on the background of prisoners, in Australia, most non-white ethnic groups have lower representation in prison compared to their percentage of the population when compared to white Australians. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime

thegrim33 2y ago
I wanted to verify the claim from your post/wikipedia link, as I don't believe it's true, but it's kind of a shame that wikipedia accepts a link to a 238 page report as the citation for a claim. It should at least refer to a specific page or section in the report. I don't want to hunt through hundreds of pages of this report to verify the claim. The report also doesn't have any sort of "conclusions" section so there's no quick way to even verify that the report is saying what they claim it's saying, let alone find the data behind the claim. However, I did a quick search for every sentence containing the word Australia, and found nothing that seemed to back up the claim.
- nmfisher 2y ago
  This definitely wasn't true when I was researching during university (~2005). That was obviously a long time ago, so it's very plausible that things have changed. However, I'd want to see some very well-vetted data to believe it.
- zapperdulchen 2y ago
  According to this statistic https://www.statista.com/statistics/1411761/australia-share-of-indigenous-prisoners-by-state-or-territory/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1411761/australia-share-... Indigenous Australians are significantly overrepresented in the prison population. As of 2022, Indigenous Australians made up 31.8% of the prison population, despite constituting only about 3.3% of the total population. Because of this massive overrepresentation, it might well be that other non-white ethnic groups are underrepresented. It's statistic and doesn't tell why one minority ends up in jail so often.

39896880 2y ago

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hollerith 2y ago
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- 39896880 2y ago
  Of course there’s a risk of negative consequences. In fact, the US experiences many of them. But, it ultimately ends up stronger.
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rayiner 2y ago
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- 39896880 2y ago
  Lesser? The US is the largest economy in the history of the world. And military. It is responsible for brokering and maintaining the freest, most prosperous time in history — the post WWII globalization. Oh, here’s where I’ll be a little less, er, academic — as someone who lives in a city shaped by the influx of Irish and Italian immigrants - fuck out of here with “lesser”.
  - pcwalton 2y ago
    Yeah, it's probably the worst comment I've ever seen Rayiner write. (This is the nicest way I can word this comment; it'd be impossible for me to say what I really feel about that insult to my heritage without breaking the site guidelines.) Irish people such as my ancestors fought and died for America in WWII. They were among the finest patriots who served the country.

rgbrenner 2y ago

European nations suggest that some immigrant groups aren't able to integrate with the host society after multiple generations You as an American can move to France, and you'll never be considered French. Doesn't matter if you speak french every day for the rest of your life with the most perfect French accent the world has ever heard. And if you and your American wife have kids in France after living in France for 20 years, your kid isn't French either.. even if he lives there for another 80 years. Better hope your kid finds a french wife, or his kids won't be french either. The idea that you move to a country and you're one of them is an American concept.

thatfrenchguy 2y ago
> And if you and your American wife have kids in France after living in France for 20 years, your kid isn't French either This is so untrue it's almost ridiculous
TimTheTinker 2y ago
French society values immigrants who integrate far more over those who do not. Macron's hand-wringing and the 2021 Separatism law are two concrete examples.
Aeglaecia 2y ago
it would be polite to act magnanimously in stating that America is not the only country with this behaviour, really I'm glad to see that the American god complex affects those across all walks of life
- 1992spacemovie 2y ago
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  - Aeglaecia 2y ago
    ah yes nit picking language my favorite counter argument
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michaelmrose 2y ago

Those voters concerns aren't driven by the actuality of social issues with the integration of Somalis they are largely driven by racism and fantasy while on the overall actual crime continues to decline.

TMWNN 2y ago

BenFranklin100 2y ago

The US is not Europe. The US is singular in its ability to assimilate immigrants. It is our superpower.

throwaway2037 2y ago
Canada? NZ? Australia? Netherlands? Brazil?

BenFranklin100 2y ago

If voters are concerned about crime, then the need to educated that immigrants, even illegal immigrants, have crime rates about the same as Americans at large.

roamerz 2y ago
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- Nasrudith 2y ago
  If we are applying that emotionally charged nonsense as a standard then why not apply the same standard to the victims of police murders and conclude that the police need deported? Or exilr all doctors given the number of molesters among them?
  - roamerz 2y ago
    >> If we are applying that emotionally charged nonsense.. I don’t see how that is emotionally charged. The simple fact is Jocelyn Nungaray would likely be alive today if that person had been prevented from illegally crossing the border. Your other argument is irrelevant to my point that if border laws were enforced the crime could not have occurred in the first place.
- kjkjadksj 2y ago
  Oh come on. Every human population has insane people. Lets not bite hook line and sinker into conservative biases.
rangestransform 2y ago
Because legal immigrants are both pre-filtered and have something to lose, it’s more reasonable to take the approach that one crime is too many with immigration, rather than comparing with the crime rate of society at large.
- BenFranklin100 2y ago

mlyle 2y ago

> You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. So, if we're concerned about crime, let's create a set of laws where we can A) get the immigrants we need for demographic and workforce reasons, but B) where we can actually screen and be selective. Plugging our ears and relying upon illegal migrants isn't going to result in good outcomes. > It is not desirable to have separate ethnic groups who "share the same language, culture and faith" distinct from the mainstream. The desirable place is somewhere in the middle. We benefit from distinct identities and varied culture, but we also need to reach enough of a common ground to pull as one nation and for two random people to be able to get along meaningfully. A whole lot of joys that I experience in life come from the ways we're varied, but breaking into enclaves would prevent those joys and weaken us. We tend to reach various kinds of overreactions. Respect for diversity is great, but not to the point to completely reject integration. The avoidance of appropriation-- avoiding adopting traditions of another culture without attribution or respect-- is important, but not to the extent that it prevents mixing or getting along.

webninja 2y ago

You have a wonderful skill at keeping the temperature down on hot issues. I know a simple upvote would suffice but I wanted to drop a compliment here regarding this talent of yours.

armchairhacker 2y ago

> History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups aren't able to integrate with the host society after multiple generations... I wish we as a society could focus on people, not ethnic groups. Deport people who can't assimilate, keep those who can. Figure out more accurate ways to determine who is who then skin color (or even things like personal taste). Some stereotypes are backed by statistics, but there's a reason why all stereotypes are bad.

scrubs 2y ago

I support immigration. I know a ton of university educated parents who either came here so or paid msrp price at American universities to get their education. And their kids all went to American universities. Through undergrad they got no free rides or scholarships either. They're smart and went to places like Emory or CMU. But why is so damn hard to also solidly insist on an orderly border? The US is a proper country with borders. It cannot be if you shoot or sneak in you're served like the wilds of old western bar frontier living. That's not operationally effective. I want both. It's congress far, far, far more than any president that is responsible for taking a 0 on all this.

baby 2y ago

> It is not desirable to have separate ethnic groups who "share the same language, culture and faith" distinct from the mainstream. How so? Short term or long term?

stouset 2y ago

> You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. Then I have great news for them! Immigrants to the U.S. are responsible for fewer crimes per capita than native-born Americans.

gottorf 2y ago
To my knowledge, there is no version of this claim that distinguishes between illegal and legal immigrants. (I'd be happy to be proven wrong.) In fact, it would be silly to claim that illegal immigrants as a group commit fewer crimes per capita than natives, since 100% of them have already violated laws by being on US soil to begin with. Legal immigrants, on the other hand, are absolutely less likely to engage in criminal behavior than the general population, because they are both selected for positive traits as well as knowing that a criminal record will jeopardize their chances of citizenship.
- throwaway4220 2y ago
  Whoa there - by your logic illegal immigrants should also keep their head down so they don’t get deported. Also, how are legal immigrants “selected for positive traits”?
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bavell 2y ago
Citations/sources conspicuously absent. If you go far back enough, just about the entire population of the US could be considered immigrants. Which wave of immigrants are you referring to? Are you including petty crimes in your claim or just the more serious ones?

jollofricepeas 2y ago

In the US and Canada: All mass influxes of immigrant communities will have some crime element initially due to poverty and discrimination. This is normal and should be expected. It’s a part of the integration process over initial generations. For the US, you can trace the phenomena to the influx of Irish Catholics in the early 1800s and from there to… Eastern European Jews, Italians, Armenians, Russians, Cubans, Chinese, Indians, Puerto-Ricans, Dominicans, Central Americans, Nigerians, Somalians and other immigrant communities.

dachworker 2y ago

You cannot use Europe as an example, because, it might surprise you, but European cultures are vastly different from American culture. A lot of the marginalized groups in Europe, have no problem integrating in the US. And to put the blame of lack of integration purely on the immigrant group is very disingenuous when you have all these far-right political parties openly showing their colours and saying matter of fact that they do not want any foreigners, including legal ones, including educated ones. And finally, what's the link between integration and crime? I don't see the connection. If anything, the people who are least integrated are the ones who are the most law abiding. The lead a pious life according to their faith. They aren't the ones going around dealing drugs in night clubs. Those drug dealers are much more integrated in the host culture. After all drug consumption is very European.

gottorf 2y ago
> And finally, what's the link between integration and crime? I don't see the connection. Here's some data from Denmark[0], for example, that breaks down various statistics for different immigrant groups in Denmark. I take it as axiomatic that immigrants from other Western countries are better integrated to Danish society than those from farther-away (culturally speaking) places[1]. You can see that as a group, immigrants from majority Muslim countries are very strongly overrepresented in violent crime. > to put the blame of lack of integration purely on the immigrant group is very disingenuous Modern immigration isn't slavery, where someone was forcibly brought to a new land against their will. Nobody has a right to be in any country they please, other than their home. So it follows that the onus is on immigrants to assimilate to the laws and cultures of the country they voluntarily chose to go to. Of course, it would be welcoming of the host country to facilitate that process, but I don't see that as being obligatory. [0]: https://inquisitivebird.substack.com/p/the-effects-of-immigration-in-denmark https://inquisitivebird.substack.com/p/the-effects-of-immigr... [1]: Of course, you may disagree, but I would regard that as a strange position needing a stout defense.

f6v 2y ago

> History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups aren't able to integrate with the host society after multiple generations This might be true, but some European countries are notoriously hard to integrate. The situation could be vastly different in societies that aren’t monocultural, e.g. USA.

WilTimSon 2y ago

> History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups aren't able to integrate with the host society after multiple generations, and remain ghettoized with low employment and high crime rates (vastly higher than the native population, for certain categories of crime). Does it suggest that, though? It suggests that, in the specific conditions that were presented to those groups, they turned to crime. However, we can't pretend that the previous generations of immigrants had exclusively good experiences and quality of life, even in Europe. Obviously, some countries tried their best but in the past decades we had far less experience on proper integration (we as in the collective we, no country has worked out some perfect plan on it). In fact, certain countries specifically created neighbourhoods (ghettos) for immigrant populations, all with positive intentions. Can't really blame the migrants for then becoming "ghettoized" in such a scenario. Granted, I know of other countries that specifically did not do that and still had struggles, which just goes to show how the whole thing is a minefield, where good intentions can clash with harsh reality.

iudqnolq 2y ago

Interestingly various European nations turn out to be a poor comparison group for the United States. No one has conclusively determined why yet, but we know there's a strong correlation between a country having English as the primary language and immigrants integrating well. This is especially true for second-generation immigrants. First generation immigrants are general less likely to commit crimes, but in countries like Germany and France the rate rises significantly with the second generation. That doesn't happen in the US or Canada, for example. The children of immigrants in English speaking countries tend to do better financially than their parents whereas in many non-english speaking European countries the children of immigrants slide into poverty. Edit: Here's a related article with some charts illustrating the correlation https://www.ft.com/content/c6bb7307-484c-4076-a0f3-fc2aeb0b6112 https://www.ft.com/content/c6bb7307-484c-4076-a0f3-fc2aeb0b6...

mk89 2y ago
There are only 3 or 4 countries in the west having English as their main language. What about UK, how did that work out for them? I can't see the charts.
- iudqnolq 2y ago
  The UK has significantly better integration than the continent in line with the other Anglosphere countries. I agree it's not enough evidence for anything conclusive. But I think it's enough evidence to say arguing about what will happen to the US based only on Sweden data is unsound.
alephnerd 2y ago
> No one has conclusively determined why yet Ask immigrants or the children of immigrants (like me). Western Europe are just extremely insular and passive aggressive and will gladly bury their head in the sand regarding their own racism. Anglo countries at least tried to tackle racism by introducing education about racism (eg. Civil Rights Movement in US, Aboriginal Rights Movement in Australia, First Nation's Movement and racial quotas in Canada, the anti-Skinhead movement and the trade union lead anti-racism movement in the UK) and trying to build an identity that trascends race or ethnicity. Similar movements happened in mainland Europe as well, but aren't taught about, so mainland Europeans remain insular in their mindset.

jppittma 2y ago

Why stop at the country level? We could just as easily have ethnic and cultural homogeneity on a global level. We'd have much lower crime and higher employment if all culture world-wide were homogenous. No ghettoized countries and such. /s

KennyBlanken 2y ago

> You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. What voters are "concerned" about and "reality" tend to be highly divorced from each other these days. https://www.ojp.gov/library/publications/comparing-crime-rates-between-undocumented-immigrants-legal-immigrants-and https://www.ojp.gov/library/publications/comparing-crime-rat... > The study found that undocumented immigrants had substantially lower crime rates than native-born citizens and legal immigrants across a range of felony offenses. Relative to undocumented immigrants, U.S.-born citizens are over 2 times more likely to be arrested for violent crimes, 2.5 times more likely to be arrested for drug crimes, and over 4 times more likely to be arrested for property crimes. Would you prefer a conservative source? Here ya go. https://www.cato.org/blog/illegal-immigrants-have-low-homicide-conviction-rate-setting-record-straight-illegal-immigrant https://www.cato.org/blog/illegal-immigrants-have-low-homici... Conservative voters also think crime in general is spiraling out of control, because a certain fan of fake tanning products keeps shouting it to them. It's not even remotely true. Both violent and property crime have plunged for decades and by and large is still falling: https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2024/04/SR_24.04.23_crime_3.png https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2024... Hilariously, a significant uptick in homicides occurred during Fake Tanning Product's presidency, and it's dropped during Biden's: > In 2020, for example, the U.S. murder rate saw its largest single-year increase on record – and by 2022, it remained considerably higher than before the coronavirus pandemic. Preliminary data for 2023, however, suggests that the murder rate fell substantially last year. Voters were also 'concerned' Democrats were running a pedo ring out of a pizza shop basement. That pizza shop does not even have a basement. By your logic, we should be hiring more FBI agents to inspect pizza shops looking for pedo rings because "voters are concerned" and writing legislation that requires pizza shop owners get CORI checks. > History and data from various European nations Why are you using historical data from another continent that is very different culturally, when there's data from the US Undocumented migrants and immigrants in the US commit half the crime US citizens do. Probably because they're here to work to do things like send money home, and so they're keeping their heads down (not to mention, busy working...) I already provided a study, but here's more about the issue. The Brennan Center article includes links to numerous studies refuting your claims. The evidence is overwhelmingly conclusive: immigrants, documented or not, commit significantly fewer crimes per capita than US citizens. https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/debunking-myth-migrant-crime-wave https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/debu... https://www.npr.org/2024/03/08/1237103158/immigrants-are-less-likely-to-commit-crimes-than-us-born-americans-studies-find https://www.npr.org/2024/03/08/1237103158/immigrants-are-les... https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2024/03/immigrants-are-significantly-less-likely-to-commit-crimes-than-the-us-born/ https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2024/03/immigrants-are... https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/03/01/undocumented-immigrant-crime-rate-not-higher/72788637007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/...

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