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After initially rejecting it, Apple has approved the first PC emulator for iOS
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- zydeco 2y agoI wonder why the prebuilt Mac OS 9.2.1 VM has disappeared from the UTM gallery
- TaylorAlexander 2y ago“It doesn’t come with any operating systems, though the app does link to UTM’s site, which has guides for Windows XP through Windows 11 emulation, as well as downloads of pre-built virtual Linux machines.” Huh… so I could run Linux on my phone!
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- advael 2y agoDo things like the internet connection and access to peripherals pass through? Could I use this to have better ssh access to some capabilities of an iphone, for example?
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- sureIy 2y agoIsn’t this kind of a huge deal? You can literally install and run Flash on an iPhone, at last.
- kmeisthax 2y agoRuffle already works in Mobile Safari, at least if the website embeds it, though we don't have an extension build for it yet.
- grishka 2y agoYou already could play Flash in iOS Safari for quite some time with Ruffle. Or do you mean Flash the authoring program?
- jeroenhd 2y agoYou already could, technically. A few iPhone models had working Android versions (through a terribly roundabout way) which you could load an old version of Flash onto. I can't say I see the use case for this on iPhones, but this does unlock a lot of options for iPads. Too bad this thing is still locked to JIT-less mode.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y agoHow about we ban Apple from imposing arbitrary rules to cripple what is just a general computing device? They are too big and too monopolistic to be allowed this degree of control.
- moogly 2y ago> just a general computing device No, it's an Apple device. It _should_ be a general computing device, but Apple ensures that it will never be, and you should be aware of that when you buy it.
- smackeyacky 2y agoI don’t know about that. My washing machine could be a general purpose computer but I didn’t buy it for that. I didn’t buy an iPhone to be a general purpose computing device for the same reason
- rowanG077 2y agoAnd there should be a ban on big washing machine locking down their washing machines. People should be able to use the hardware for what they want. It's a pretty pointless thing to say "I didn't buy an Ipad to do X so why should it be able to do X?". Of course you didn't buy your ipad to do X. It's not capable of doing X so you'd be pretty stupid if you bought it for that purpose. That has nothing to do whether the manufacturer of the ipad should be allowed to control whether you can do X.
- smackeyacky 2y agoApple have no obligation to allow their devices to do X even if the device is capable of it. It’s well understood when you buy an iPhone you’re getting a closely managed experience. If that isn’t acceptable, buy something else
- rowanG077 2y ago
- magnio 2y agoFeels like this app alone make ipadOS more usable than all the past effort from Apple combined.
- idle_zealot 2y agoDon't get too excited. It's the SE "Slow Edition." Apple won't let apps access JIT acceleration, let alone the iPad's virtualization capabilities, so this is all interpreted and barely usable.
- walterbell 2y agoBaby steps :) We know that recent (M2+) Apple Silicon has hardware support not only for virtualization, but nested virtualization. Time may improve Apple's risk/reward for enabling virtualization in specific iPad use cases. Thanks to aShell and iSH emulators for pioneering Linux-alike experiences on iPads, at the cost of overheated silicon. Thanks to Asahi for bare-metal Linux, including virtualization, on Apple Silicon.
- EMIRELADERO 2y ago> Time may improve Apple's risk/reward for enabling virtualization in specific iPad use cases. It's more likely that the EU will improve it. As things stand today, Android allows for JIT acceleration on all apps, essentially unrestricted. The DMA only allows for security measures that restrict APIs insofar as those measures are "strictly necessary and proportionate". Since Android manages just fine on that front with full JIT, Apple's defense relying on that DMA exception will fail.
- throwaway3306a 2y agoSo why does my android phone not allow sudo or chroot, and when I root it my bank application stops working, citing the EU payment service regulations? Virtualization is not enabled too, even though the cpu supports it.
- testfrequency 2y agoGreat. Now Apple just needs to support JIT
- 486sx33 2y agoMaybe we can back door that into this app… quietly
- LaMarseillaise 2y agoWith mouse support coming in visionOS 2, this could be an interesting experience on the Apple Vision Pro.
- 486sx33 2y agoThis is cool.. Mac OS can of course access the iPad App Store so … we can run this on MacBook Pro :)
- wvenable 2y agoDoes anyone know what this is: “QEMU TCTI implementation was pivotal for this JIT-less build.”
- monocasa 2y agoIt's a backend for qemu's cpu JIT that doesn't actually JIT code for the host CPU, but code that's simply more performant to interpret than the target CPU arch as a set of JOP/ROP gadgets. It's so it works as perfomantly as possible without in case without the ability to set pages executable like on iOS. https://github.com/tctiSH/qemu/blob/with_tcti_vectors/tcg/aarch64-tcti/README.md https://github.com/tctiSH/qemu/blob/with_tcti_vectors/tcg/aa...
- jchw 2y agoI was curious, so I looked into it. - TCG = Tiny Code Generator; QEMU's framework for emulating CPU architectures via translating instructions[1] - TCI = Tiny Code Interpreter? The source code says: "(TCG with bytecode interpreter, experimental and slow)"[2] - TCTI = Tiny Code Threaded-Dispatch Interpreter? The source code says: "TCTI (TCG with threaded-dispatch bytecode interpreter, experimental and slow; but faster than TCI)"[3] So, apparently, it's some kind of optimized interpreter. Exactly what it means by "threaded-dispatch" is unclear, there's some surprisingly tricky looking things going on[4]. Does threaded refer to OS threading, or does it maybe mean that it's doing something a bit more like a cached interpreter? I wonder if it's even more clever than that. [1]: https://wiki.qemu.org/Documentation/TCG https://wiki.qemu.org/Documentation/TCG [2]: https://github.com/tctiSH/qemu/blob/1e4d72b004c26724cd049798b3370492016cd3b0/meson.build#L2595 https://github.com/tctiSH/qemu/blob/1e4d72b004c26724cd049798... [3]: https://github.com/tctiSH/qemu/blob/1e4d72b004c26724cd049798b3370492016cd3b0/meson.build#L2597 https://github.com/tctiSH/qemu/blob/1e4d72b004c26724cd049798... [4]: https://github.com/tctiSH/qemu/commit/1e4d72b004c26724cd049798b3370492016cd3b0 https://github.com/tctiSH/qemu/commit/1e4d72b004c26724cd0497...
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- monocasa 2y ago
- ubutler 2y agoI misinterpreted the title as Apple approving development of iOS apps on PC. That would’ve been an exciting development.
- EMIRELADERO 2y agoSome people think Apple's JIT restrictions standing up to the DMA is a given, but I heavily doubt that will be the case. The DMA allows for security exceptions only when measures are "strictly necessary and proportionate", Article 6(4). Apple argues that this ban is crucial for security, yet Android permits JIT compilation and maintains robust security on that front for 99% of its user base without significant incidents.
- Rinzler89 2y ago>Apple argues that this ban is crucial for security Foxes argue the ban on chicken wire is crucial for their security.
- teaearlgraycold 2y agoApple built iOS with the assumption that apps can’t use JIT. They can migrate to a new set of constraints, but I’m sure they’re right that right now it’s necessary for security. It could take a while to patch all of the security holes from opening up JIT.
- walterbell 2y agoHow does MacOS survive attacks while supporting JIT and a subsystem for running iOS/iPadOS apps?
- teaearlgraycold 2y agoIt’s a different operating system.
- walterbell 2y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_(operating_system) Darwin is the core Unix-like operating system of macOS (previously OS X and Mac OS X), iOS, watchOS, tvOS, iPadOS, audioOS, visionOS, and bridgeOS. It previously existed as an independent open-source operating system, first released by Apple Inc. in 2000. It is composed of code derived from NeXTSTEP, FreeBSD, other BSD operating systems, Mach, and other free software projects' code, as well as code developed by Apple.
- kmeisthax 2y agoMy tinfoil is that Apple banned this specifically because you can use it to get a desktop on iPadOS, which offends their "fingers can't touch mouse apps" sensibilites.
- pcwalton 2y agoFar more likely that Apple doesn't like emulators because they allow for the distribution of software that bypasses the 30% revenue cut, as well as enabling content that they don't want (adult content, extreme political content, etc.) It likewise seems clear that Apple relented in this case because a not-particularly-easy-to-use, interpreter-only PC emulator doesn't enable anything that isn't already possible with a Web app.
- oreilles 2y agoThey don't allow that more than a web browser does.
- apozem 2y agoApple allows VNC apps, which access desktop OSes through a touch screen. No need for making up new theories with no evidence, I think. They just don’t want to grant a third party JIT permission because of security concerns
- jamesgeck0 2y ago> They just don’t want to grant a third party JIT permission because of security concerns The initial rejected UTM submission had no JIT compilation.
- kmeisthax 2y agoUTM SE is specifically a no-JIT version. And I actually do have evidence for my conspiracy theory: iDOS 2. Apple was perfectly fine with it up until someone in tech media posted a guide on how to run ancient versions of Windows on it, then they pulled the app. Furthermore, "fingers shall not touch mouse apps" was a Jobs decree. It's specifically the reason why Apple got into touch UI. Jobs designed the iPad out of spite due to a friend of his who was on the Windows tablet team around the turn of the millennium. Jobs was so angry that they were just putting Windows on a tablet - and handing people styluses to work around the small touch targets on XP - that he made Apple design a tablet computer demo around finger-only UI. That was then grafted onto the Purple project (which at that point was a clickwheel iPod with a phone modem in it) and we got the iPhone. So my suspicion is that Apple has an internal "things which make Jobs spin in his grave" list that they would never allow, come hell, high water, or the European Union's antitrust regulators.
- williamstein 2y agoI just ran genuine 64bit Linux on a non jailbroke iPhone! I have waited so so so long for this. Finally. Thank you EU regulators!!
- isodev 2y agoThe things we could have had if it wasn’t necessary to use regulation to force Apple into doing the right thing.
- 9dev 2y agoThe things we could have if we finally accepted regulation is important for markets not hostile to consumers.
- sschueller 2y agoThe things we had. Full and complete service manuals to TVs, VCRs and cars. Access to parts etc. and actual ownership of what we purchased. We had all that. It was taken away.
- seanthemon 2y agoAccessibility goes in, shiny new toy comes out Humans go ooo, accessibility never comes back again..
- cqqxo4zV46cp 2y agoI implore you to not trivialise and belittle “humans” for not always prioritising what you personally would like them to. Different people have different preferences, and that can and does can happen intelligently, not just the result being “wooed” by marketing or whatever.
- freehorse 2y agoHowever you call it, it is essentially trading one's freedom for convenience. Yes it is a result of more general social dynamics rather than mere advertising, it even follows the political trends of our times. But it is time to realise the price we pay for this sort of convenience, and that it does not come for free. Advertising does not tell that.
- Jiahang 2y ago1.66GB!
- williamstein 2y agoFinally a meaningful way to use a chunk of that 160 GB of free space I have on my iPad...
- teekert 2y agoThe AltStore team helped them but it’s not on AltStore? I’d really like to see a nice strong offering there, more pro and privacy/foss oriented perhaps, similar to F-Droid.
- sunnybeetroot 2y agoThe article shows a tweet where it is mentioned coming soon to AltStore.
- commandersaki 2y agoI use UTM on Mac, it's a great experience. Donated a little to them using github sponsors because of how useful the tool is, and how easy it is to obtain and install unlike VMware Player (see: https://matduggan.com/the-worst-website-in-the-entire-world/ https://matduggan.com/the-worst-website-in-the-entire-world/ ).
- ivanjermakov 2y agoFrom X: > Also shoutout to @ktemkin whose QEMU TCTI implementation was pivotal for this JIT-less build. Does this mean that it is just a JIT-less build? How is the performance for Linux emulation compared to the previous UTM SE build?
- ivanjermakov 2y agoTried it myself on iPad Air 4. x86 Arch Linux installer is unusable. Took ~5min to boot and not responding to commands.
- nathanasmith 2y agoI'm using Debian 11 with LXDE on an M1 iPad Pro and it's surprisingly useable. I can use this. I'd recommend trying it out and seeing for yourself.
- sureglymop 2y agoUnfortunate that we're not affected here in Switzerland. Although I do expect it soon, since especially opening up NFC could benefit the nationwide contactless payment solution (twint).
- jeroenhd 2y agoI kind of wonder what the performance impact of Apple's ban on JIT would be. How does iOS without JIT compare to Android with JIT?
- rcarmo 2y agoWell, right now this technically works, but is unusable - melted off 15% of my iPad’s battery life just logging in to XFCE and doing an apt upgrade (Debian ARM64), and is very slow overall. I’m going to try turning off the GUI and decreasing the core count to 2, but I don’t expect this to beat a-Shell on practicality or even iSH on usability. In short, I’m going to keep using an ARM sidecar: https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2023/10/07/1830 https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2023/10/07/1830 Apple doesn’t let us JIT nice things, and it’s just sad.
- timenova 2y agoThis is fantastic. Does anyone know how to run Alpine Linux on it? Last time I tried through AltStore, I couldn't get it working.