7 ms·

Tour de France riders are inhaling carbon monoxide in 'super altitude' recipe

35 points by huphtur 2y ago

weinzierl 2y ago
This article is shadow paywalled. It looks as if you could read it but suddenly throws a "Want to keep reading? Pay!" in your face.
- Lalabadie 2y ago
  Complete article: https://archive.is/70wTN https://archive.is/70wTN
- MBCook 2y ago
  Reader mode got me past it no sweat in Safari.
- Terr_ 2y ago
  Disabling Javascript by default wins again! :p
- pwg 2y ago
  With uBlock Origin by default blocking all the javascript on the site the entire article is readable.
- davidw 2y ago
  Cycling journalism doesn't pay well and has suffered in recent years. Escape Collective is a group trying to 'go their own way' to provide high quality reporting on their own terms. So it makes sense for them to paywall it; it's not meant for a broader audience, but people who want a lot of high quality bike news. https://escapecollective.com/about-us/ https://escapecollective.com/about-us/
- IncreasePosts 2y ago
  I browse default with javascript off, and if it seems like a website is messed up, I enable it on a per-site basis. Browsing like this is 1) really nice for my laptop battery, but 2) also completely eliminates many of these soft paywalls.
MBCook 2y ago
This sounds very stupidly dangerous. I’m amazed this is legal, and that people would do it in the first place. I get wanting to win at all costs but this is nuts.
- its_ethan 2y ago
  I don't know what it is about cycling that seems to concentrate some of the most insane physiological manipulation (not sure if that's the right phrase tbh). Other sports like baseball/tennis/etc seem to have some issues with like general steroids. But the level that cyclists go to always seems to exceed them by orders of magnitude. I don't know how true it is, but I've heard that some cyclists had/have to set alarms throughout the night so they wake up to do jumping jacks to get their heart rates back up above the "artificial" 15bpm that their training + cocktail of drugs has caused.
  - Swizec 2y ago
    > I don't know how true it is, but I've heard that some cyclists had/have to set alarms throughout the night so they wake up to do jumping jacks to get their heart rates back up above the "artificial" 15bpm that their training + cocktail of drugs has caused. Even as a casual runner (top 20% in a marathon, def not competitive), I have had to silence low heart rate alarms on my apple watch because my heart rate regularly drops below 40bpm at night. When I’m in peak condition for a race, I’ve seen it drop as low as 30. Professional cyclists have the highest VO2max of any athlete. Even without drugs I would be completely unsurprised if their heart rate gets to 20bpm in deep sleep.
    - its_ethan 2y ago
      Definitely some amount of it is natural, I'm even less competitive with running than you, but seeing my resting heart rate go down as you ramp up distances is a satisfying thing when you realize the hard work is paying off in a "tangible" way :) I did a little more googling after the above comment, and it seems like another factor that (in theory) plays into the issue for the anecdote is that their blood can get thicker from doping. So it's a recipe of very low heart rate + extra viscous blood to pump that = danger. Regardless, it's some pretty interesting/freaky stuff!
Terr_ 2y ago
I wonder what'll happen if/when it leads to a fatality: > Other details like optimal dosage are still very much in question as well. [...] Aside from the risk of death, acute carbon monoxide poisoning can cause lasting health problems, including delayed neurological damage. [..."]But if you inhale carbon monoxide, the half-life is 300 minutes. If you get toxic levels, you’re really screwed” because the gas can’t leave your body for hours. [...] And in especially acute cases, victims would need access to a hospital equipped with a special hyperbaric chamber for treatment.
lupusreal 2y ago
I understand inhaling carbon monoxide to be common practice for road cyclists.
- droopyEyelids 2y ago
  and diesel particulates!
- scott_w 2y ago
  You inhale less CO and other pollutants on a bicycle than you do in a car. I don’t have the study to hand but this has definitely been measured.
Aperocky 2y ago
> That’s what happened in January 2023 when two riders on Uno-X Mobility had to be taken to hospital after a go-karting session for team bonding left them with carbon monoxide poisoning. Surely it was the go-karting and the team-bonding...
- rdtsc 2y ago
  Heh, “For some reason all these teams always do go-karting and indoor grilling bonding sessions before major tournaments…”
  - Aperocky 2y ago
    Couldn't afford to fly to Sierra Nevada or camp at Swiss mountains, so go-kart and indoor grilling it is.
adolph 2y ago
Seems like they are breathing plenty of carbon monoxide during the race too: https://www.welovecycling.com/wide/2022/07/01/cars-supporting-the-bikes-what-does-it-take-to-make-the-tour-de-france-happen/ https://www.welovecycling.com/wide/2022/07/01/cars-supportin...
davidw 2y ago
I got a light case of CO poisoning from using a grill outdoors in a space that I guess wasn't really well ventilated. Threw up in the middle of the night (wasn't the food, everyone else was fine and so was I the very next day). I didn't feel any faster after that and it was kind of a miserable experience. I don't think I would mess around with that stuff.
- klyrs 2y ago
  Yeah, if I was gonna attempt this, it'd be N2 gas, or even CO2, but CO is stupid.
  - davidw 2y ago
    Nitrogen is apparently pretty dangerous too because, from what I understand, your body doesn't feel like it's not "getting enough air" like it does with high CO2 concentrations? Something like that, I don't recall the specifics...
    - matsemann 2y ago
      It's build up of co2 in your lungs/body that gives you the urge to breathe, yeah. So any messing around with the air composition could kill you without noticing the lack of o2, as long as you keep breathing thus getting rid of the co2.
    - klyrs 2y ago
      Yeah, I think I'd use a mix -- not pure gas, but one with a fixed (nonlethal) ratio of oxygen.
  - bobmcnamara 2y ago
    Joking with some coworkers I once took a big breath of what should've been helium but had accidentally been misfilled with trimix welding shield gas (He/CO2/Ar). I knew immediately what had happened as I coughed in duck noises.
- Aperocky 2y ago
beloch 2y ago
If it confers an advantage, even a small one, and it's allowed, everyone will be compelled to do it in order to remain competitive. That's the crazy thing about high level sports. Either it's banned or everyone does it. There is no in between.
- matsemann 2y ago
  In cycling it's also common to do lots of stuff that might not even have an advantage. But when you see other teams do it, you don't dare not to.
  - SamBam 2y ago
    Reminds me of swimmer Mark Spitz who had a mustache at the 1972 Olympics in Munich, and won 7 gold medals in a world record. The Russian swimming coach asked him about the mustache, and he replied that American scientists had determined that it made him faster. A year later, in the 1973 World Championships, most of the Russian team had mustaches, while Spitz had shaved his off.
- readthenotes1 2y ago
  I like your use of the non-exclusive or there
runner03 2y ago
Distance runner (and known abusive coach who dabbled in PEDs) Alberto Salazar is said to have trained on a treadmill in his garage with the car on.
freetanga 2y ago
Latin American rowers from many countries train (or used to) at Tiquicaca Lake, in Bolivia. The highest lake in the world. Apparently intense training in a thin atmosphere made them more powerful when racing in richer atmospheres. Source: Olympic rower who is a friend.
- jablala 2y ago
  You'll also see a lot of MMA fighters train up in the mountains to the same extent.
- ojbyrne 2y ago
  High altitude has been well known as a training aid for decades, e.g. Kenyan marathoners: https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/06/africa/kenya-runners-win-marathons-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/06/africa/kenya-runners-win-mara...
  - latchkey 2y ago
    The US Olympic Training Center is in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Elevation: 6k ft and next to Peaks Pike at 14k feet. I used to go there in the late 80's as a cyclist to train. They'd follow you in a car as you rode up PP, honking at you to go faster.
- matsemann 2y ago
  It's quite common, and how it's done is often depending on where you compete (if you need high altitude experience during the race itself). So some practice sleep high train low, while others are high and do the workouts as well at altitude. Many athletes also sleep in altitute tents. Basically something you wrap around your bed or a mask, that simulates being at altitute.
- unglaublich 2y ago
  The reduced oxygen concentration prompts the generation of new red blood cells. That translates to a higher VO2-max back at regular altitudes.
- SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
scott_w 2y ago
Couple of things: I’m not sure this is dangerous, per se, as long as the dosage is measured. As you learn in school, CO is only poisonous because it replaces oxygen in your blood. There’s no negative long term effects as long as the dose never reduces the oxygen mix of air beyond what a human can survive on. This is being used to simulate altitude training, so I don’t see how you can ban it. It’ll just mean all teams go back to altitude training instead. We don’t consider altitude training doping because that would be an insane position to take. Would you ban riders from mountainous regions from cycling? That second point also means it’s not being dangerously configured because we know the oxygen % levels at different altitudes. An interesting article, nonetheless.
bqe777 2y ago
[flagged]

35 points by huphtur 2y ago

This article is shadow paywalled. It looks as if you could read it but suddenly throws a "Want to keep reading? Pay!" in your face.

Lalabadie 2y ago
Complete article: https://archive.is/70wTN https://archive.is/70wTN
MBCook 2y ago
Reader mode got me past it no sweat in Safari.
Terr_ 2y ago
Disabling Javascript by default wins again! :p
pwg 2y ago
With uBlock Origin by default blocking all the javascript on the site the entire article is readable.
davidw 2y ago
Cycling journalism doesn't pay well and has suffered in recent years. Escape Collective is a group trying to 'go their own way' to provide high quality reporting on their own terms. So it makes sense for them to paywall it; it's not meant for a broader audience, but people who want a lot of high quality bike news. https://escapecollective.com/about-us/ https://escapecollective.com/about-us/
IncreasePosts 2y ago
I browse default with javascript off, and if it seems like a website is messed up, I enable it on a per-site basis. Browsing like this is 1) really nice for my laptop battery, but 2) also completely eliminates many of these soft paywalls.

MBCook 2y ago

This sounds very stupidly dangerous. I’m amazed this is legal, and that people would do it in the first place. I get wanting to win at all costs but this is nuts.

its_ethan 2y ago
I don't know what it is about cycling that seems to concentrate some of the most insane physiological manipulation (not sure if that's the right phrase tbh). Other sports like baseball/tennis/etc seem to have some issues with like general steroids. But the level that cyclists go to always seems to exceed them by orders of magnitude. I don't know how true it is, but I've heard that some cyclists had/have to set alarms throughout the night so they wake up to do jumping jacks to get their heart rates back up above the "artificial" 15bpm that their training + cocktail of drugs has caused.
- Swizec 2y ago
  > I don't know how true it is, but I've heard that some cyclists had/have to set alarms throughout the night so they wake up to do jumping jacks to get their heart rates back up above the "artificial" 15bpm that their training + cocktail of drugs has caused. Even as a casual runner (top 20% in a marathon, def not competitive), I have had to silence low heart rate alarms on my apple watch because my heart rate regularly drops below 40bpm at night. When I’m in peak condition for a race, I’ve seen it drop as low as 30. Professional cyclists have the highest VO2max of any athlete. Even without drugs I would be completely unsurprised if their heart rate gets to 20bpm in deep sleep.
  - its_ethan 2y ago
    Definitely some amount of it is natural, I'm even less competitive with running than you, but seeing my resting heart rate go down as you ramp up distances is a satisfying thing when you realize the hard work is paying off in a "tangible" way :) I did a little more googling after the above comment, and it seems like another factor that (in theory) plays into the issue for the anecdote is that their blood can get thicker from doping. So it's a recipe of very low heart rate + extra viscous blood to pump that = danger. Regardless, it's some pretty interesting/freaky stuff!

Terr_ 2y ago

I wonder what'll happen if/when it leads to a fatality: > Other details like optimal dosage are still very much in question as well. [...] Aside from the risk of death, acute carbon monoxide poisoning can cause lasting health problems, including delayed neurological damage. [..."]But if you inhale carbon monoxide, the half-life is 300 minutes. If you get toxic levels, you’re really screwed” because the gas can’t leave your body for hours. [...] And in especially acute cases, victims would need access to a hospital equipped with a special hyperbaric chamber for treatment.

lupusreal 2y ago

I understand inhaling carbon monoxide to be common practice for road cyclists.

droopyEyelids 2y ago
and diesel particulates!
scott_w 2y ago
You inhale less CO and other pollutants on a bicycle than you do in a car. I don’t have the study to hand but this has definitely been measured.

Aperocky 2y ago

> That’s what happened in January 2023 when two riders on Uno-X Mobility had to be taken to hospital after a go-karting session for team bonding left them with carbon monoxide poisoning. Surely it was the go-karting and the team-bonding...

rdtsc 2y ago
Heh, “For some reason all these teams always do go-karting and indoor grilling bonding sessions before major tournaments…”
- Aperocky 2y ago
  Couldn't afford to fly to Sierra Nevada or camp at Swiss mountains, so go-kart and indoor grilling it is.

adolph 2y ago

Seems like they are breathing plenty of carbon monoxide during the race too: https://www.welovecycling.com/wide/2022/07/01/cars-supporting-the-bikes-what-does-it-take-to-make-the-tour-de-france-happen/ https://www.welovecycling.com/wide/2022/07/01/cars-supportin...

davidw 2y ago

I got a light case of CO poisoning from using a grill outdoors in a space that I guess wasn't really well ventilated. Threw up in the middle of the night (wasn't the food, everyone else was fine and so was I the very next day). I didn't feel any faster after that and it was kind of a miserable experience. I don't think I would mess around with that stuff.

klyrs 2y ago
Yeah, if I was gonna attempt this, it'd be N2 gas, or even CO2, but CO is stupid.
- davidw 2y ago
  Nitrogen is apparently pretty dangerous too because, from what I understand, your body doesn't feel like it's not "getting enough air" like it does with high CO2 concentrations? Something like that, I don't recall the specifics...
  - matsemann 2y ago
    It's build up of co2 in your lungs/body that gives you the urge to breathe, yeah. So any messing around with the air composition could kill you without noticing the lack of o2, as long as you keep breathing thus getting rid of the co2.
  - klyrs 2y ago
    Yeah, I think I'd use a mix -- not pure gas, but one with a fixed (nonlethal) ratio of oxygen.
- bobmcnamara 2y ago
  Joking with some coworkers I once took a big breath of what should've been helium but had accidentally been misfilled with trimix welding shield gas (He/CO2/Ar). I knew immediately what had happened as I coughed in duck noises.
Aperocky 2y ago

beloch 2y ago

If it confers an advantage, even a small one, and it's allowed, everyone will be compelled to do it in order to remain competitive. That's the crazy thing about high level sports. Either it's banned or everyone does it. There is no in between.

matsemann 2y ago
In cycling it's also common to do lots of stuff that might not even have an advantage. But when you see other teams do it, you don't dare not to.
- SamBam 2y ago
  Reminds me of swimmer Mark Spitz who had a mustache at the 1972 Olympics in Munich, and won 7 gold medals in a world record. The Russian swimming coach asked him about the mustache, and he replied that American scientists had determined that it made him faster. A year later, in the 1973 World Championships, most of the Russian team had mustaches, while Spitz had shaved his off.
readthenotes1 2y ago
I like your use of the non-exclusive or there

runner03 2y ago

Distance runner (and known abusive coach who dabbled in PEDs) Alberto Salazar is said to have trained on a treadmill in his garage with the car on.

freetanga 2y ago

Latin American rowers from many countries train (or used to) at Tiquicaca Lake, in Bolivia. The highest lake in the world. Apparently intense training in a thin atmosphere made them more powerful when racing in richer atmospheres. Source: Olympic rower who is a friend.

jablala 2y ago
You'll also see a lot of MMA fighters train up in the mountains to the same extent.
ojbyrne 2y ago
High altitude has been well known as a training aid for decades, e.g. Kenyan marathoners: https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/06/africa/kenya-runners-win-marathons-trnd/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/06/africa/kenya-runners-win-mara...
- latchkey 2y ago
  The US Olympic Training Center is in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Elevation: 6k ft and next to Peaks Pike at 14k feet. I used to go there in the late 80's as a cyclist to train. They'd follow you in a car as you rode up PP, honking at you to go faster.
matsemann 2y ago
It's quite common, and how it's done is often depending on where you compete (if you need high altitude experience during the race itself). So some practice sleep high train low, while others are high and do the workouts as well at altitude. Many athletes also sleep in altitute tents. Basically something you wrap around your bed or a mask, that simulates being at altitute.
unglaublich 2y ago
The reduced oxygen concentration prompts the generation of new red blood cells. That translates to a higher VO2-max back at regular altitudes.
SketchySeaBeast 2y ago

scott_w 2y ago

Couple of things: I’m not sure this is dangerous, per se, as long as the dosage is measured. As you learn in school, CO is only poisonous because it replaces oxygen in your blood. There’s no negative long term effects as long as the dose never reduces the oxygen mix of air beyond what a human can survive on. This is being used to simulate altitude training, so I don’t see how you can ban it. It’ll just mean all teams go back to altitude training instead. We don’t consider altitude training doping because that would be an insane position to take. Would you ban riders from mountainous regions from cycling? That second point also means it’s not being dangerously configured because we know the oxygen % levels at different altitudes. An interesting article, nonetheless.

bqe777 2y ago

[flagged]