12 ms·

If you've ever stayed in the heart of Tokyo you know the JR Yamanote line well. What a feat for Japan to have it. I always thought trains (light rail, high sp

If you've ever stayed in the heart of Tokyo you know the JR Yamanote line well. What a feat for Japan to have it. I always thought trains (light rail, high speed, what ever) were so much better than cars. Have more traffic? Just add more trains, no extra rails needed. Yamanote line rush hour showed me how effective that is AND how you might need more rail eventually. Rush hour had a train there every ~2 minutes and they were still packed. Still better than sitting in stop and go car traffic. Can't wait to go back!

teleforce 2y ago
JR Yamanote line is a circular or loop line in the middle of Tokyo not unlike Circle line for London Tube. Naturally circular line will be the most popular since other lines are moving radially from city center thus travelling between two nearby places can take longer by changing trains if they're not on the same the line. Case in point, Bordeaux city in southwest of France currently has no circular tram line (yet) hence most of the public transport users are relying on the buses to go to the nearby places that are close but on different tram lines.
jimjimjim 2y ago
It's a fun experience just being in the absolutely packed rush hour Tokyo trains. Although I don't have to worry about claustrophobia since I'm 6'3 tall and I'm able to look out above the heads of everybody else.
- linguae 2y ago
  Yeah, I travel to Japan frequently (in fact, my next trip is next week!) and I'm also tall. I love Japan, and I love Tokyo's public transportation. However, one of the things I don't like are the jammed-packed rush hour trains in Tokyo. It could be very uncomfortable. I try my best to plan my itineraries in such a way where I could avoid that commute as much as possible. Complaints aside, I love Tokyo's train and subway network! I can get around easily, with most places being no more than a 20-minute walk away from the nearest train/subway station, and many of the lines that connect central Tokyo to its neighbors have express routes that skip many stations along the way. Some lines even have special cars with reserved seats that cost extra. I sometimes take them whenever they are available; they make for a very comfortable ride.
- jackstraw14 2y ago
  Hmm, as a 6'2" person with claustrophobia issues, I'm quite certain my height makes it much worse!
  - ErigmolCt 2y ago
    Being able to look out over the heads of the crowd can help
- ErigmolCt 2y ago
  A unique window into Japanese culture.
renewiltord 2y ago
It's great to use as a tourist. Very easy to get where you want and top notch frequency. One thing I thought was interesting is that transit advocates in the California I was visiting from push for free transit and transit sucks balls here while Japan generally was fee-paid transit and their transit ruled. I frequently travel to Hong Kong and I moved to California from London and so I looked them up and they hadn't transformed to free either. If I'm honest, I get the feeling that transit advocates in California are trying to kill transit.
- simonw 2y ago
  What makes you associate free transit with "trying to kill transit"?
  - ano-ther 2y ago
    Not OP, but somebody still has to pay for the transit. And a "free" service is politically much more vulnerable than one that is partly being paid for by the users because it involves taxes and redistribution. It adds pressure for each (annual) budget discussion.
    - simonw 2y ago
      That "politically vulnerable" point is good. Almost all public transit ends up heavily subsidized, so the argument for free is that it's not a huge difference, and it reduces the costs involved in collecting fees / enforcement etc. But yeah, it's easier for political winds to blow against it.
      - brailsafe 2y ago
        I'd add that it wouldn't be so outlandish to assume that any superficially and widely agreeable movement might just be astroturfing, considering how cheap and easy it is to persuade people in general, but also specifically by making them think everyone else feels the same, and how often the arguments just parrot whatever the various internet personalities happen to be saying about it without any additional insight.
sofixa 2y ago
> I always thought trains (light rail, high speed, what ever) were so much better than cars. Have more traffic? Just add more trains, no extra rails needed. Yamanote line rush hour showed me how effective that is AND how you might need more rail eventually. Rush hour had a train there every ~2 minutes and they were still packed. I mean they are much better, but this is only true to a point. You can't get better than 60-90s frequency per direction on a classic fully automated dual track line. Afterwards you need to add more tracks, or increase the length of the trains.
- teractiveodular 2y ago
  The Yamanote is mostly quadruple-track, although the commuter line uses only two of those. Trains run every two minutes at peak hour, and each train has 11 carriages, giving the system ridiculous capacity.
  - bobthepanda 2y ago
    the commuter line only uses two of those but this is a bit misleading because there are other parallel rail lines over much of its length running right alongside. there used to be not as many, but the Yamanote was so overcrowded that they constructed additional pairs of tracks to reduce the amount of people who needed to change trains onto the Yamanote.
- theluketaylor 2y ago
  Montreal's new REM is running pretty short trains at 30 trains per hour and still has capacity for over 40,000 people per hour. 60 trains per hour with longer trains can do even more. Only a handful of places on earth have the density to require any more capacity than a fully automated double track metro can deliver, and those places all have the tax base to easily support quad tracking or actually better is building multiple parallel lines nearby with strong connectivity. Nearly all metros with capacity issues have old, slow sections that limit the entire network (NYC looking at you) or have paused on expanding the network for generations (NYC looking at you again, 2nd ave subway notwithstanding).
TacticalCoder 2y ago
What's also amazing is how well everything is working. They're are on time and stop at the exact right spot: the doors do open precisely where they're meant to.
- aabhay 2y ago
  To be honest I’m more surprised that this isn’t just how things are everywhere.
  - boopdewoop 2y ago
    If only other cultures were afraid of being judged.
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      I think most other cultures just don't have any kind of drive to do one's best and excel.
    - lmz 2y ago
      So afraid they'd rather kill people than be late. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amagasaki_derailment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amagasaki_derailment
  - sofixa 2y ago
    It is for every large scale modern or modernised line. Copenhagen metro, Elizabeth line, all Paris metro lines (maybe without the 3bis, 10, 7 bis lines), Madrid metro, etc etc. Hell, all VAL-based metros like Lille, Rennes, Toulouse also have those characteristics because they're fully automated even if they're light metro for smaller cities.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
golergka 2y ago
> I always thought trains (light rail, high speed, what ever) were so much better than cars. Do you honestly think that standing in a crowd with other people's smell all over you is better than being in your personal space, with music and AC turned to your taste, alone, sitting in a comfortable place that you adjusted for yourself? You must be the kind of person who thinks bland rice and unseasoned chicken breasts are better than all other foods, just because of how price-efficient they are.
- wkat4242 2y ago
  In the car you have to pay attention to the road, you have a lot of responsibility and put yourself and others at risk if you don't pay attention. You always have to return to the place you left your car and usually have to pay to park it. I really love public transport and outside peak hours i usually get a seat so I can read a book. If I have to drive, all that time is completely wasted because the attention paying precludes doing anything useful with my time.
- bowsamic 2y ago
  I really don’t see the connection between preferring public transport and preferring to eat unseasoned food. The latter isn’t even much cheaper than seasoned food. Also chicken breast is very expensive, maybe you should have said veganism or something
  - OfficeChad 2y ago
    [dead]
- ddfs123 2y ago
  The best music is often discovered while a train, or a night bus at 2AM, with a sub-par quality headphone ;)
maxglute 2y ago
>Rush hour had a train there every ~2 minutes and they were still packed. Sometimes I wonder if society will figure out a way to stagger business hours and holidays... somehow... to decongest rush hour. Something like X areacode business hours have to +/- 1 hour every other month.
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  Or just let people work from home if they can? Society seems to be dead set on certain ceremonies that aren’t technically needed.
  - SapporoChris 2y ago
    https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/remote-work-statistics/ https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/remote-work-statisti... "As of 2023, 12.7% of full-time employees work from home", this appears to be data for USA only. Certainly that percentage can be increased, but not all jobs can be worked remotely. It will help congestion but won't eliminate it. Also, fun fact, not all traffic during rush hour is from commuting to work.
    - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
      A large number of tech workers go in only 3 days a week, which would help congestion if it wasn’t all the same 3 days for everyone. I spent more money on a house next to schools so I wouldn’t need to be a part of the rush hour commute, except now we have a summer camp to go to in the next town over, well at least it’s summer and school traffic is gone.
    - kjkjadksj 2y ago
      People say “not all jobs” but a great deal of them certainly can be remote. I think we all remember 2020 when hourly workers still had to show up to their job, office workers didn’t and this was sufficient to clear all the roads and even affect local air quality.
    - c22 2y ago
soruly 2y ago
> Rush hour had a train there every ~2 minutes actually 2 trains every ~2 minutes on the east side of the yamanote loop, it runs in parallel with keihin tohoku line every station from tabata to sinagawa. The platforms are arranged side by side, so if you miss one train, the next train is probably right behind you. it's fun to see trains racing right next to each other. Other than that there are also rapid lines running in parallel that takes you straight to major stations by skipping some smaller ones.
ErigmolCt 2y ago
The remarkable efficiency and effectiveness of urban rail systems.

teleforce 2y ago

JR Yamanote line is a circular or loop line in the middle of Tokyo not unlike Circle line for London Tube. Naturally circular line will be the most popular since other lines are moving radially from city center thus travelling between two nearby places can take longer by changing trains if they're not on the same the line. Case in point, Bordeaux city in southwest of France currently has no circular tram line (yet) hence most of the public transport users are relying on the buses to go to the nearby places that are close but on different tram lines.

jimjimjim 2y ago

It's a fun experience just being in the absolutely packed rush hour Tokyo trains. Although I don't have to worry about claustrophobia since I'm 6'3 tall and I'm able to look out above the heads of everybody else.

linguae 2y ago
Yeah, I travel to Japan frequently (in fact, my next trip is next week!) and I'm also tall. I love Japan, and I love Tokyo's public transportation. However, one of the things I don't like are the jammed-packed rush hour trains in Tokyo. It could be very uncomfortable. I try my best to plan my itineraries in such a way where I could avoid that commute as much as possible. Complaints aside, I love Tokyo's train and subway network! I can get around easily, with most places being no more than a 20-minute walk away from the nearest train/subway station, and many of the lines that connect central Tokyo to its neighbors have express routes that skip many stations along the way. Some lines even have special cars with reserved seats that cost extra. I sometimes take them whenever they are available; they make for a very comfortable ride.
jackstraw14 2y ago
Hmm, as a 6'2" person with claustrophobia issues, I'm quite certain my height makes it much worse!
- ErigmolCt 2y ago
  Being able to look out over the heads of the crowd can help
ErigmolCt 2y ago
A unique window into Japanese culture.

renewiltord 2y ago

It's great to use as a tourist. Very easy to get where you want and top notch frequency. One thing I thought was interesting is that transit advocates in the California I was visiting from push for free transit and transit sucks balls here while Japan generally was fee-paid transit and their transit ruled. I frequently travel to Hong Kong and I moved to California from London and so I looked them up and they hadn't transformed to free either. If I'm honest, I get the feeling that transit advocates in California are trying to kill transit.

simonw 2y ago
What makes you associate free transit with "trying to kill transit"?
- ano-ther 2y ago
  Not OP, but somebody still has to pay for the transit. And a "free" service is politically much more vulnerable than one that is partly being paid for by the users because it involves taxes and redistribution. It adds pressure for each (annual) budget discussion.
  - simonw 2y ago
    That "politically vulnerable" point is good. Almost all public transit ends up heavily subsidized, so the argument for free is that it's not a huge difference, and it reduces the costs involved in collecting fees / enforcement etc. But yeah, it's easier for political winds to blow against it.
    - brailsafe 2y ago
      I'd add that it wouldn't be so outlandish to assume that any superficially and widely agreeable movement might just be astroturfing, considering how cheap and easy it is to persuade people in general, but also specifically by making them think everyone else feels the same, and how often the arguments just parrot whatever the various internet personalities happen to be saying about it without any additional insight.

sofixa 2y ago

> I always thought trains (light rail, high speed, what ever) were so much better than cars. Have more traffic? Just add more trains, no extra rails needed. Yamanote line rush hour showed me how effective that is AND how you might need more rail eventually. Rush hour had a train there every ~2 minutes and they were still packed. I mean they are much better, but this is only true to a point. You can't get better than 60-90s frequency per direction on a classic fully automated dual track line. Afterwards you need to add more tracks, or increase the length of the trains.

teractiveodular 2y ago
The Yamanote is mostly quadruple-track, although the commuter line uses only two of those. Trains run every two minutes at peak hour, and each train has 11 carriages, giving the system ridiculous capacity.
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  the commuter line only uses two of those but this is a bit misleading because there are other parallel rail lines over much of its length running right alongside. there used to be not as many, but the Yamanote was so overcrowded that they constructed additional pairs of tracks to reduce the amount of people who needed to change trains onto the Yamanote.
theluketaylor 2y ago
Montreal's new REM is running pretty short trains at 30 trains per hour and still has capacity for over 40,000 people per hour. 60 trains per hour with longer trains can do even more. Only a handful of places on earth have the density to require any more capacity than a fully automated double track metro can deliver, and those places all have the tax base to easily support quad tracking or actually better is building multiple parallel lines nearby with strong connectivity. Nearly all metros with capacity issues have old, slow sections that limit the entire network (NYC looking at you) or have paused on expanding the network for generations (NYC looking at you again, 2nd ave subway notwithstanding).

TacticalCoder 2y ago

What's also amazing is how well everything is working. They're are on time and stop at the exact right spot: the doors do open precisely where they're meant to.

aabhay 2y ago
To be honest I’m more surprised that this isn’t just how things are everywhere.
- boopdewoop 2y ago
  If only other cultures were afraid of being judged.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    I think most other cultures just don't have any kind of drive to do one's best and excel.
  - lmz 2y ago
    So afraid they'd rather kill people than be late. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amagasaki_derailment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amagasaki_derailment
- sofixa 2y ago
  It is for every large scale modern or modernised line. Copenhagen metro, Elizabeth line, all Paris metro lines (maybe without the 3bis, 10, 7 bis lines), Madrid metro, etc etc. Hell, all VAL-based metros like Lille, Rennes, Toulouse also have those characteristics because they're fully automated even if they're light metro for smaller cities.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

golergka 2y ago

> I always thought trains (light rail, high speed, what ever) were so much better than cars. Do you honestly think that standing in a crowd with other people's smell all over you is better than being in your personal space, with music and AC turned to your taste, alone, sitting in a comfortable place that you adjusted for yourself? You must be the kind of person who thinks bland rice and unseasoned chicken breasts are better than all other foods, just because of how price-efficient they are.

wkat4242 2y ago
In the car you have to pay attention to the road, you have a lot of responsibility and put yourself and others at risk if you don't pay attention. You always have to return to the place you left your car and usually have to pay to park it. I really love public transport and outside peak hours i usually get a seat so I can read a book. If I have to drive, all that time is completely wasted because the attention paying precludes doing anything useful with my time.
bowsamic 2y ago
I really don’t see the connection between preferring public transport and preferring to eat unseasoned food. The latter isn’t even much cheaper than seasoned food. Also chicken breast is very expensive, maybe you should have said veganism or something
- OfficeChad 2y ago
  [dead]
ddfs123 2y ago
The best music is often discovered while a train, or a night bus at 2AM, with a sub-par quality headphone ;)

maxglute 2y ago

>Rush hour had a train there every ~2 minutes and they were still packed. Sometimes I wonder if society will figure out a way to stagger business hours and holidays... somehow... to decongest rush hour. Something like X areacode business hours have to +/- 1 hour every other month.

seanmcdirmid 2y ago
Or just let people work from home if they can? Society seems to be dead set on certain ceremonies that aren’t technically needed.
- SapporoChris 2y ago
  https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/remote-work-statistics/ https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/remote-work-statisti... "As of 2023, 12.7% of full-time employees work from home", this appears to be data for USA only. Certainly that percentage can be increased, but not all jobs can be worked remotely. It will help congestion but won't eliminate it. Also, fun fact, not all traffic during rush hour is from commuting to work.
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    A large number of tech workers go in only 3 days a week, which would help congestion if it wasn’t all the same 3 days for everyone. I spent more money on a house next to schools so I wouldn’t need to be a part of the rush hour commute, except now we have a summer camp to go to in the next town over, well at least it’s summer and school traffic is gone.
  - kjkjadksj 2y ago
    People say “not all jobs” but a great deal of them certainly can be remote. I think we all remember 2020 when hourly workers still had to show up to their job, office workers didn’t and this was sufficient to clear all the roads and even affect local air quality.
  - c22 2y ago

soruly 2y ago

> Rush hour had a train there every ~2 minutes actually 2 trains every ~2 minutes on the east side of the yamanote loop, it runs in parallel with keihin tohoku line every station from tabata to sinagawa. The platforms are arranged side by side, so if you miss one train, the next train is probably right behind you. it's fun to see trains racing right next to each other. Other than that there are also rapid lines running in parallel that takes you straight to major stations by skipping some smaller ones.

ErigmolCt 2y ago

The remarkable efficiency and effectiveness of urban rail systems.