7 ms·

Reminds me of the statistic I heard recently that something like 95% of soybeans grown in South America are used to feed livestock in Europe, even though soy is

by dools 2y ago

Reminds me of the statistic I heard recently that something like 95% of soybeans grown in South America are used to feed livestock in Europe, even though soy is already a complete protein and could be used to satisfy the protein requirements of more people locally, than the protein harvested from the livestock.

bwb 2y ago
People don’t like soybeans the same way they like meat.
- TaylorAlexander 2y ago
  Maybe but that is cultural and influenced by marketing, public awareness campaigns, and access to quality prepared meals. Certainly in just the past 5 years I went from a meat heavy diet to a meat-free diet with a lot of consumption of soybeans (tempeh, tofu, soymilk, and cooked soybeans). We could encourage others to do the same with, as I said above, marketing, public awareness campaigns, and encouragement for meat-free restaurants. Not everyone would shift, but in aggregate we could change demand patterns and people would still be happy. I know I would much rather eat tempeh now than any kind of meat product.
  - NayamAmarshe 2y ago
    Yes, it’s all about culture and influence. As more and more people switch to a vegetarian/vegan diet, they keep coming up with more dishes and preparations. Innovation is bound to happen where there’s an influx of interest.
    - djtango 2y ago
      I love food and I love eating. Some of the most interesting dishes are vegetarian because you have to work that much harder to bring a dish together. That really excites the chef/epicurean in me. And then you can just get a good quality slab of meat, give it a good char and sprinkle some salt on it and it'll stand on its own as basically a whole meal. I think meat could 10-50x in price and I'll still find a way to eat it or I'll venture off into the wilderness and hunt it myself. No one could convince me otherwise - there's really nothing like catching your fish and cooking it over an open fire to round a day spent in the outdoors... Gathering some nuts and fruit and blending soybeans to make tofu just doesn't have the same appeal to me... Even though wild fruit really are delicious and my friends stories of eating wild durian really inspire me to brave the sweat (and creepy crawlies and snakes) and venture off into the jungle
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - lukan 2y ago
        "Some of the most interesting dishes are vegetarian because you have to work that much harder to bring a dish together." Yeah, this is the main reason why I mainly cook with meat. I am a lazy cook and I can cook vegetarian, but not with the same tasty resulty but I know it can be done..
        djtango 2y ago
        I once cooked a vegetarian pumpkin lasagne for a vegetarian guest and it was delicious but my god was it hard work vs a regular one.
      - NayamAmarshe 2y ago
        We’re still talking about the culture. It’s not that vegetarian food is hard to make, or that it’s less tasty. You just haven’t been exposed to the culture, which is why you believe it’s not feasible but literally billions of people in India have been thriving on a vegetarian diet with thousands of dishes for thousands of years. But yeah, in the end we all try to justify our actions. No argument will be convincing enough if one values their taste buds more than someone’s life or the planet.
        djtango 2y ago
        India isn't so great an example insofar as there are plenty of sources detailing common deficiencies in the Indian vegetarian diet - namely B12 and protein. But in any case I don't think turning consumption into something moral will ever scale. If you want to curb consumption you have to price in the externalities. This is true for everything - fast fashion and cheap flights too. I don't think it is cultural - my point is that as someone who appreciates food for more than just sustenance you'll never convince me that tempeh/tofu/jack fruit/bugs will one day make me forget that meat is delicious. I will gladly vote with my wallet or blood sweat & tears to continue eating meat especially if it becomes sustainable via price hikes. And I don't say this from a position of arrogance - I'm saying that I would cut many many many other things out of my life before I gave up meat due to affordability issues.
  - hansworst 2y ago
    If that’s true, you could make a killing by creating soy bean based food products and actually marketing them properly.
    - martyvis 2y ago
      Wouldn't the aim be to not make a killing?
    - TaylorAlexander 2y ago
      No I could not. I’m a robotics engineer and I’m bad at business (I’ve tried) and probably worse at marketing. Also, soy bean based products are abundant. Tofu, tempeh, and soy milk are everywhere. Soy beans are one of the most significant crops in the world. The deliciousness of soy beans is present in the existing simple foods. I don’t personally believe the thing missing is some new kind of soy-based food. One thing we can do is encourage individuals all over the world to eat more vegan meals, and dine out at vegan restaurants. This will encourage more restaurant owners to offer more vegan options. I really don’t think this is a problem that can be solved by one big company. Soy is not some secret. We just need meat-focused cultures to understand both the problems of meat based diets and the deliciousness of vegan options. And as a vegan of five years now, the tastiest vegan meals are not some heavily processed product made from extracts of soy. It’s the basics that have existed for thousands of years, cooked well and paired with delicious vegetables, legumes, grains, and beans.
  - dyauspitr 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - throwaway211 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - pohuing 2y ago
        Soyboy came from the misconception that some plant based estrogen lookalike is turning all the male SJWs into femboys. I don't remember any direct racial connotations. Though the crowd that created the term sure doesn't mind being racist so who knows.
      - wordofx 2y ago
        Stop making things up please. Soy boy has never been a racist slur.
        throwaway211 2y ago
        https://www.reddit.com/r/asianamerican/comments/wo8jm9/what_are_yalls_thoughts_on_the_term_soyboy/ https://www.reddit.com/r/asianamerican/comments/wo8jm9/what_...
        wordofx 2y ago
        A random Reddit post from a year ago isn’t going to change the origin of a word used for 30+ years.
        throwaway211 2y ago
        That's the thing, racism becomes ingrained I'm not racist, so what I say, do and condone cannot be racist. Often people can't change. It takes generations to leave behind. But even then, if not even acknowledged, it will continue. I suggest being the change and tempering your language to match your intent.
  - teractiveodular 2y ago
    I've spent enough time in Indonesia to like tempeh more than most people (it was invented there and they've figured out how to cook with it), but convincing the average meat eater to switch to soybeans is going to be an uphill fight.
  - anal_reactor 2y ago
    "that is cultural" is a shorthand for "it took us thousands of years of trial and error to achieve status quo and I want to change things right now because I think I can do better" I'm not saying you're wrong, because I'm aware that modern life is different from our ancestors who depended on meat, but I want you to be aware of the magnitude of the force you're fighting against, and not say "it's just cultural, so easy to change". Imagine saying "the fact that most Americans speak English instead of Mandarin is just cultural, we could literally change it overnight if we wanted to".
    - TaylorAlexander 2y ago
      Nowhere in my comment did I say it was easy to change, or that "we could literally change it overnight". What I said was that with education, outreach, and other nudges, we could, over time, affect the statistical distribution of meat consumption. Which is correct. I did not say it was easy, in fact I did not comment on how hard it would be, I just said it is possible. In fact, fixing humanity's over-consumption of resources will be very hard. But we have no choice. We will perish if we do not. So, idk about you, but I think we had better try. By the way, and I want to say this as a genuine bit of feedback, but it is not very interesting conversation if you are going to take what I said, turn it in to hyperbole, and then point out that the hyperbole you made up is unrealistic. I would encourage you to read comments carefully, and make sure you have really understood what the person has said. Cheers, and nice username.
      - anal_reactor 2y ago
        I use hyperboles to highlight certain issues. I see that I could give off vibes along "here's my hyperbole, I defeat it, so I defeat your argument", but what I wanted to say is "I agree with the core idea, but I think your argument is missing something very important, but it's a problem to be solved rather than a complete failure". Next time I'll try to be clearer
  - hnlmorg 2y ago
    It’s not a cultural thing, some people just like the taste of meat. Those people tend to eat their steaks rare and soybeans will never be a substitute for that. I like some vegetarian and vegan dishes but they have to be meals where meat isn’t the “hero” of that dish. For example a good curry is about the flavour of the source rather than the flavour of the protein. This is why I think lab grown meat is the way forward.
    - TaylorAlexander 2y ago
      > It’s not a cultural thing, some people just like the taste of meat. Can you explain why 20-39% of Indians, or 276 million Indians, are vegetarian while in China, Chile, Colombia, and France (to pick a few) it is 5%? [1] Because it is either cultural, or it is genetic. And I doubt Indians have a genetic mutation that makes them vegetarian, I think it is cultural. If a good curry is what makes more people vegetarian, then we can cook good curries anywhere. In a meat-heavy culture, a lot of people might not realize how much they would like vegetarian meals! > I like some vegetarian and vegan dishes but they have to be meals where meat isn’t the “hero” of that dish. Not to be snarky, but that is the definition of a vegetarian dish. But I know what you mean, and you are right, meat substitutes do not make for very good vegan meals. A good vegan meal is one where it's not just trying to emulate meat based foods, but building a flavor profile that celebrates the actual vegetables and other ingredients in harmony. Go to any of these Michelin rated vegan restaurants [2] for example, and you will find absolutely incredible tasting vegan meals. It takes culture to spread this kind of thing to chefs and patrons, and that is something we have influence over. I have been to Millennium [3], and it is incredible. If more meals like this were available, people "liking the taste of meat" would not really matter that much, because they would LOVE the taste of this stuff. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country [2] https://guide.michelin.com/us/en/california/san-francisco/restaurants/vegan-90?sort=distance https://guide.michelin.com/us/en/california/san-francisco/re... [3] https://www.millenniumrestaurant.com/ https://www.millenniumrestaurant.com/
      - xyproto 2y ago
        Is there any data indicating that a preference for meat is not genetic?
  - ahoka 2y ago
    Prof. Frederick Starr’s comment from 1936 about Roman cooking: “Many of the Apician dishes will not appeal to the beef eaters. It is worthy of note that much criticism was heaped upon Apicius some 200 years ago in England when beef eating became fashionable in that country. The art of Apicius requires practitioners of superior intellect. Indeed, it requires a superior clientèle to appreciate Apician dishes. But practitioners that would pass the requirements of the Apician school are scarce in the kitchens of the beef eaters. We cannot blame meat eaters for rejecting the average chef d’œuvre set before them by a mediocre cook who has learned little besides the roasting or broiling of meats. Once the average man has acquired a taste for the refined compositions made by a talented and experienced cook, say, a composition of meats, vegetables or cereals, properly “balanced” by that intuition that never fails the real artist, the fortunate diner will eventually curtail the preponderant meat diet. A glance at some Chinese and Japanese methods of cookery may perhaps convince us of the probability of these remarks. Nothing is more perplexing and more alarming than a new dish, but we can see in a reversion to Apician cookery methods only a dietetic benefit accruing to this so-called white race of beef eaters. … One has but to study the methods of ancient and intelligent people who have suffered for thousands of years under the perennial shortage of food supplies in order to understand and to appreciate Apician methods. Be it far from us to advocate their methods, or to wish upon us the conditions that engendered such methods; for such practices have been pounded into these people by dire necessity. They have graduated from the merciless school of hunger. Food materials, we repeat, were never as cheap and as abundant as they are today. But who can say that they always will be so in the future?”
- frankzander 2y ago
  Really? In Asia Tofu and Tempeh is well established in the cuisine so ... At the end it's a matter of getting used to new tastes.
  - chii 2y ago
    i will not give up meat for tofu, no matter how tasty the tofu is (and it is tasty). What i will do is eat both meat _and_ tofu. The idea that people would voluntarily stop eating meat and switch to a vegitarian diet is just wishful thinking.
    - _fizz_buzz_ 2y ago
      Probably a more realistic approach would be to convince people to eat less meat. I significantly reduced my meat consumption, but when I eat it I am looking for really high quality meat, such as locally grass fed beef.
      - eru 2y ago
        Yes, if you look at actual impact instead of at moral judgement, then getting someone to reduce their consumption by x% gets you x% towards the same goal as complete abstinence. Similar, if you can get a population to reduce their consumption by x%, it doesn't matter if that's because x% went totally without (and the rest didn't change anything), or whether you could a more uniform, mild change. Convincing people to give up some meat is pretty straightforward: one proven way is for meat to become more expensive. People react to economic incentives on the margin after all. Other ways might be to make the alternatives more appealing. (About the margins: meat would have to get extremely expensive for many people to completely give up on it. But if sometimes you are deciding between going to a steak place and a pasta place, and then price can sway your decision fairly easily. The meal at the pasta place can still have meat in it for this example to work, just less of it.)
        theultdev 2y ago
        If it's over a steak place or pasta place it will be steak every time, no matter the price. I feel like shit after eating pasta, so I never eat it. I feel great after eating meat, so I always eat it. But we don't eat out, that's more wasteful and expensive than anything else. fires up the grill
- maxglute 2y ago
  Vegetarians visceral don't like meat the same way they like soybeans. It's somewhat trainable preference. IMO easier to get entrenched meat eaters to eat some more plants than convert plant eaters (especially religious) to meat.
- dools 2y ago
  I don’t think Europeans should stop eating meat but I think we should stop using protein rich food suitable for humans to feed livestock. Livestock are good for taking inedible grass and turning it into protein. Deforesting South America to grow protein rich cow food for Europeans is absurd.
  - lostlogin 2y ago
    The environmental effects go further too. New Zealand has done huge damage to its waterways with cattle farming. It’s primarily dairy rather than beef though. Different end product, same beast.
    - dools 2y ago
      Fun fact: coffee with cow's milk tastes disgusting to me now. I'm a total soy milk convert, and that about does it for dairy. I rarely eat cheese. Eliminating dairy was trivial. I still eat meat though, but I live in Australia so we have relatively inexpensive grass fed stuff that is produced domestically (for now).
      - lostlogin 2y ago
        New Zealand dairy products are often cheaper in Australia than here in NZ where they are produced. I don’t get how that’s happening.
tivert 2y ago
> Reminds me of the statistic I heard recently that something like 95% of soybeans grown in South America are used to feed livestock in Europe, even though soy is already a complete protein and could be used to satisfy the protein requirements of more people locally, than the protein harvested from the livestock. Reminds me of a statistic that most people still like to eat food even though they could satisfy their protein requirements with a nutritional slurry at 34% of the cost with a 96% reduction in fueling times.
- dathos 2y ago
  [flagged]
- highwaylights 2y ago
  ITS PEOPLE! SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!
- SSLy 2y ago
  yep, that's the market huel, queal, etc cover.
MandieD 2y ago
If you want less rainforest destroyed to grow soybeans, eat more soybeans.
- forty 2y ago
  No rainforest have been destroyed by soybean that people eat. Meat production kills environment (with soybeans and more).
  - wordofx 2y ago
    No it doesn’t.
    - wyre 2y ago
      Source please? Expansion of pasture land to raise cattle was responsible for 41% of tropical deforestation. https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation
      - Jensson 2y ago
        What about the remaining 59%? The poster said "No rainforest have been destroyed by soybean that people eat".
        themk 2y ago
        I assume the "no it doesn't" was targeted at > Meat production kills environment The link above is responding to the "no it doesn't" by providing evidence that it does. But to answer your question (it's in the link, but I'll save you a click), the next biggest cause is "oil seeds", which includes a large hunk of soy. Most of the soy goes to animal feed, 13% goes to oil for human consumption, some goes to industrial uses, and about 7% goes to human consumption of what would usually be considered alternative to animal products (tofu, tempeh, soy milk, etc). Yes, eating anything is going to contribute to resource depletion, but what we eat makes a huge difference!
easytiger 2y ago
Yes, it is well known that beef and reconstituted processed soybean products have exactly the same nutritional content, eating experience, flavour, texture and satiating ability for the consumer. People enjoying this experience are clearly morally corrupt lumpenproletariat deserving to be shamed and cowed by the self flagellating self appointed protectors of the summum bonum.
- eigenket 2y ago
  Ah yeah, this seems like a perfectly sensible and not wildly exaggerated reply. I'm sorry that people taking personal responsibility for the results of their actions provokes such a response in you.
  - easytiger 2y ago
    Which bit specifically do you have an issue with? Perhaps we can discuss it
    - eigenket 2y ago
      I mean I just skimmed through the thread you replied in and I don't see anyone making any of the arguments you're arguing against. No one is claiming that beef and tofu are identical in flavour or whatever. No one (as far as I can tell) is particularly shaming people for eating meat. I see people mostly making pretty sensible and measured arguments. Your comment is just arguing against a couple of strawmen you've cooked up. You aren't really engaging in the debate you're replying to.
      - easytiger 2y ago
        Then you clearly didn't read the comment i replied to
dxuh 2y ago
You are correct that soy bean protein is complete and the protein is of high quality, but it's a pet peeve of mine when people talk about protein completeness, as it is essentially false dichotomy. There is a (multi-dimensional) continuum of protein completeness in the sense that the amino acid profile doesn't just have to contain every essential amino acid, but has to contain it in the right amount, as is required by the average human being. Soy protein for example is particularly low in Methionine and Cystine. If your goal is to get enough of those, you might have to eat three times as much soy as for example egg whites (by weight). But similarly soy protein has more Tryptophan than beef. "Completeness" is a binary that is not quite sufficient to describe protein quality. There is a reason whey and egg proteins are more popular among strength athletes for example, as they are richer in leucine, which seems to be the limiting amino acid in muscle building. I still think we should eat way less meat and soy is a very high quality substitute for it.
- sociorealist 2y ago
  > I still think we should eat way less meat and soy is a very high quality substitute for it. "I still think _i_ should eat way less meat and soy is a very high quality substitute for it." There, FTFY. (i see the soyboys came, again, out of their woodworks already)
  - qtk8 2y ago
    No, you are included in this too.
    - sva_ 2y ago
      You vill eat ze bugs, you vill own nothing, and you vill be happy
      - LargoLasskhyfv 2y ago
        Crunchy munchie, toasty tasty, yippie yaa jee haa!
- 2y ago
fransje26 2y ago
We could do a lot better than farming meat, by planting legumes instead. Not only would we relieve the pressure on arable land, we would also be improving the local soil quality as legumes are good nitrogen fixers.
ilius2 2y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcgChU4RpxM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcgChU4RpxM
mgraupner 2y ago
I did some fact checking on these figures and could not find a source for them. It seems that most of the soy goes to China. The dynamics of global soybean trade remain heavily influenced by China, which accounts for about 60% of worldwide soybean imports. China’s soybean imports are driven by demand for animal protein and edible oils, two essential components of a diversifying Chinese diet that reflects rising living standards. China predominantly sources its soybean supplies from Brazil and the United States. For many years, the United States was the top supplier, but in the last 15 years China has depended more on imports from South America, especially from Brazil. From 2019-2023, 73% of Brazil’s exported soybeans have headed to China, versus a 51% average for the United States (see Figure 2). Source: https://farmdocdaily.illinois.edu/2024/02/the-united-states-brazil-and-china-soybean-triangle-a-20-year-analysis.html#:~:text=From%202019%2D2023%2C%2073%25,States%20(see%20Figure%202) https://farmdocdaily.illinois.edu/2024/02/the-united-states-....
- dools 2y ago
  Yep you're right. The place I heard it was the Just Have a Think YouTube channel. He was quoting Hannah Ritchie: https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation#is-our-appetite-for-soy-driving-deforestation-in-the-amazon https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation#is-our-a... The figure is 75% of global soy goes to animals, and China is more than Europe (although EU is second largest importer of Brazilian soy after China). So the figures are 75% and China+Europe, not 95% and Europe. Either he got it wrong or I remembered it wrong! Thanks for pointing that out.

by dools 2y ago

bwb 2y ago

People don’t like soybeans the same way they like meat.

TaylorAlexander 2y ago
Maybe but that is cultural and influenced by marketing, public awareness campaigns, and access to quality prepared meals. Certainly in just the past 5 years I went from a meat heavy diet to a meat-free diet with a lot of consumption of soybeans (tempeh, tofu, soymilk, and cooked soybeans). We could encourage others to do the same with, as I said above, marketing, public awareness campaigns, and encouragement for meat-free restaurants. Not everyone would shift, but in aggregate we could change demand patterns and people would still be happy. I know I would much rather eat tempeh now than any kind of meat product.
- NayamAmarshe 2y ago
  Yes, it’s all about culture and influence. As more and more people switch to a vegetarian/vegan diet, they keep coming up with more dishes and preparations. Innovation is bound to happen where there’s an influx of interest.
  - djtango 2y ago
    I love food and I love eating. Some of the most interesting dishes are vegetarian because you have to work that much harder to bring a dish together. That really excites the chef/epicurean in me. And then you can just get a good quality slab of meat, give it a good char and sprinkle some salt on it and it'll stand on its own as basically a whole meal. I think meat could 10-50x in price and I'll still find a way to eat it or I'll venture off into the wilderness and hunt it myself. No one could convince me otherwise - there's really nothing like catching your fish and cooking it over an open fire to round a day spent in the outdoors... Gathering some nuts and fruit and blending soybeans to make tofu just doesn't have the same appeal to me... Even though wild fruit really are delicious and my friends stories of eating wild durian really inspire me to brave the sweat (and creepy crawlies and snakes) and venture off into the jungle
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - lukan 2y ago
      "Some of the most interesting dishes are vegetarian because you have to work that much harder to bring a dish together." Yeah, this is the main reason why I mainly cook with meat. I am a lazy cook and I can cook vegetarian, but not with the same tasty resulty but I know it can be done..
      - djtango 2y ago
        I once cooked a vegetarian pumpkin lasagne for a vegetarian guest and it was delicious but my god was it hard work vs a regular one.
    - NayamAmarshe 2y ago
      We’re still talking about the culture. It’s not that vegetarian food is hard to make, or that it’s less tasty. You just haven’t been exposed to the culture, which is why you believe it’s not feasible but literally billions of people in India have been thriving on a vegetarian diet with thousands of dishes for thousands of years. But yeah, in the end we all try to justify our actions. No argument will be convincing enough if one values their taste buds more than someone’s life or the planet.
      - djtango 2y ago
        India isn't so great an example insofar as there are plenty of sources detailing common deficiencies in the Indian vegetarian diet - namely B12 and protein. But in any case I don't think turning consumption into something moral will ever scale. If you want to curb consumption you have to price in the externalities. This is true for everything - fast fashion and cheap flights too. I don't think it is cultural - my point is that as someone who appreciates food for more than just sustenance you'll never convince me that tempeh/tofu/jack fruit/bugs will one day make me forget that meat is delicious. I will gladly vote with my wallet or blood sweat & tears to continue eating meat especially if it becomes sustainable via price hikes. And I don't say this from a position of arrogance - I'm saying that I would cut many many many other things out of my life before I gave up meat due to affordability issues.
- hansworst 2y ago
  If that’s true, you could make a killing by creating soy bean based food products and actually marketing them properly.
  - martyvis 2y ago
    Wouldn't the aim be to not make a killing?
  - TaylorAlexander 2y ago
    No I could not. I’m a robotics engineer and I’m bad at business (I’ve tried) and probably worse at marketing. Also, soy bean based products are abundant. Tofu, tempeh, and soy milk are everywhere. Soy beans are one of the most significant crops in the world. The deliciousness of soy beans is present in the existing simple foods. I don’t personally believe the thing missing is some new kind of soy-based food. One thing we can do is encourage individuals all over the world to eat more vegan meals, and dine out at vegan restaurants. This will encourage more restaurant owners to offer more vegan options. I really don’t think this is a problem that can be solved by one big company. Soy is not some secret. We just need meat-focused cultures to understand both the problems of meat based diets and the deliciousness of vegan options. And as a vegan of five years now, the tastiest vegan meals are not some heavily processed product made from extracts of soy. It’s the basics that have existed for thousands of years, cooked well and paired with delicious vegetables, legumes, grains, and beans.
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - throwaway211 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - pohuing 2y ago
      Soyboy came from the misconception that some plant based estrogen lookalike is turning all the male SJWs into femboys. I don't remember any direct racial connotations. Though the crowd that created the term sure doesn't mind being racist so who knows.
    - wordofx 2y ago
      Stop making things up please. Soy boy has never been a racist slur.
      - throwaway211 2y ago
        https://www.reddit.com/r/asianamerican/comments/wo8jm9/what_are_yalls_thoughts_on_the_term_soyboy/ https://www.reddit.com/r/asianamerican/comments/wo8jm9/what_...
        wordofx 2y ago
        A random Reddit post from a year ago isn’t going to change the origin of a word used for 30+ years.
        throwaway211 2y ago
        That's the thing, racism becomes ingrained I'm not racist, so what I say, do and condone cannot be racist. Often people can't change. It takes generations to leave behind. But even then, if not even acknowledged, it will continue. I suggest being the change and tempering your language to match your intent.
- teractiveodular 2y ago
  I've spent enough time in Indonesia to like tempeh more than most people (it was invented there and they've figured out how to cook with it), but convincing the average meat eater to switch to soybeans is going to be an uphill fight.
- anal_reactor 2y ago
  "that is cultural" is a shorthand for "it took us thousands of years of trial and error to achieve status quo and I want to change things right now because I think I can do better" I'm not saying you're wrong, because I'm aware that modern life is different from our ancestors who depended on meat, but I want you to be aware of the magnitude of the force you're fighting against, and not say "it's just cultural, so easy to change". Imagine saying "the fact that most Americans speak English instead of Mandarin is just cultural, we could literally change it overnight if we wanted to".
  - TaylorAlexander 2y ago
    Nowhere in my comment did I say it was easy to change, or that "we could literally change it overnight". What I said was that with education, outreach, and other nudges, we could, over time, affect the statistical distribution of meat consumption. Which is correct. I did not say it was easy, in fact I did not comment on how hard it would be, I just said it is possible. In fact, fixing humanity's over-consumption of resources will be very hard. But we have no choice. We will perish if we do not. So, idk about you, but I think we had better try. By the way, and I want to say this as a genuine bit of feedback, but it is not very interesting conversation if you are going to take what I said, turn it in to hyperbole, and then point out that the hyperbole you made up is unrealistic. I would encourage you to read comments carefully, and make sure you have really understood what the person has said. Cheers, and nice username.
    - anal_reactor 2y ago
      I use hyperboles to highlight certain issues. I see that I could give off vibes along "here's my hyperbole, I defeat it, so I defeat your argument", but what I wanted to say is "I agree with the core idea, but I think your argument is missing something very important, but it's a problem to be solved rather than a complete failure". Next time I'll try to be clearer
- hnlmorg 2y ago
  It’s not a cultural thing, some people just like the taste of meat. Those people tend to eat their steaks rare and soybeans will never be a substitute for that. I like some vegetarian and vegan dishes but they have to be meals where meat isn’t the “hero” of that dish. For example a good curry is about the flavour of the source rather than the flavour of the protein. This is why I think lab grown meat is the way forward.
  - TaylorAlexander 2y ago
    > It’s not a cultural thing, some people just like the taste of meat. Can you explain why 20-39% of Indians, or 276 million Indians, are vegetarian while in China, Chile, Colombia, and France (to pick a few) it is 5%? [1] Because it is either cultural, or it is genetic. And I doubt Indians have a genetic mutation that makes them vegetarian, I think it is cultural. If a good curry is what makes more people vegetarian, then we can cook good curries anywhere. In a meat-heavy culture, a lot of people might not realize how much they would like vegetarian meals! > I like some vegetarian and vegan dishes but they have to be meals where meat isn’t the “hero” of that dish. Not to be snarky, but that is the definition of a vegetarian dish. But I know what you mean, and you are right, meat substitutes do not make for very good vegan meals. A good vegan meal is one where it's not just trying to emulate meat based foods, but building a flavor profile that celebrates the actual vegetables and other ingredients in harmony. Go to any of these Michelin rated vegan restaurants [2] for example, and you will find absolutely incredible tasting vegan meals. It takes culture to spread this kind of thing to chefs and patrons, and that is something we have influence over. I have been to Millennium [3], and it is incredible. If more meals like this were available, people "liking the taste of meat" would not really matter that much, because they would LOVE the taste of this stuff. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country [2] https://guide.michelin.com/us/en/california/san-francisco/restaurants/vegan-90?sort=distance https://guide.michelin.com/us/en/california/san-francisco/re... [3] https://www.millenniumrestaurant.com/ https://www.millenniumrestaurant.com/
    - xyproto 2y ago
      Is there any data indicating that a preference for meat is not genetic?
- ahoka 2y ago
  Prof. Frederick Starr’s comment from 1936 about Roman cooking: “Many of the Apician dishes will not appeal to the beef eaters. It is worthy of note that much criticism was heaped upon Apicius some 200 years ago in England when beef eating became fashionable in that country. The art of Apicius requires practitioners of superior intellect. Indeed, it requires a superior clientèle to appreciate Apician dishes. But practitioners that would pass the requirements of the Apician school are scarce in the kitchens of the beef eaters. We cannot blame meat eaters for rejecting the average chef d’œuvre set before them by a mediocre cook who has learned little besides the roasting or broiling of meats. Once the average man has acquired a taste for the refined compositions made by a talented and experienced cook, say, a composition of meats, vegetables or cereals, properly “balanced” by that intuition that never fails the real artist, the fortunate diner will eventually curtail the preponderant meat diet. A glance at some Chinese and Japanese methods of cookery may perhaps convince us of the probability of these remarks. Nothing is more perplexing and more alarming than a new dish, but we can see in a reversion to Apician cookery methods only a dietetic benefit accruing to this so-called white race of beef eaters. … One has but to study the methods of ancient and intelligent people who have suffered for thousands of years under the perennial shortage of food supplies in order to understand and to appreciate Apician methods. Be it far from us to advocate their methods, or to wish upon us the conditions that engendered such methods; for such practices have been pounded into these people by dire necessity. They have graduated from the merciless school of hunger. Food materials, we repeat, were never as cheap and as abundant as they are today. But who can say that they always will be so in the future?”
frankzander 2y ago
Really? In Asia Tofu and Tempeh is well established in the cuisine so ... At the end it's a matter of getting used to new tastes.
- chii 2y ago
  i will not give up meat for tofu, no matter how tasty the tofu is (and it is tasty). What i will do is eat both meat _and_ tofu. The idea that people would voluntarily stop eating meat and switch to a vegitarian diet is just wishful thinking.
  - _fizz_buzz_ 2y ago
    Probably a more realistic approach would be to convince people to eat less meat. I significantly reduced my meat consumption, but when I eat it I am looking for really high quality meat, such as locally grass fed beef.
    - eru 2y ago
      Yes, if you look at actual impact instead of at moral judgement, then getting someone to reduce their consumption by x% gets you x% towards the same goal as complete abstinence. Similar, if you can get a population to reduce their consumption by x%, it doesn't matter if that's because x% went totally without (and the rest didn't change anything), or whether you could a more uniform, mild change. Convincing people to give up some meat is pretty straightforward: one proven way is for meat to become more expensive. People react to economic incentives on the margin after all. Other ways might be to make the alternatives more appealing. (About the margins: meat would have to get extremely expensive for many people to completely give up on it. But if sometimes you are deciding between going to a steak place and a pasta place, and then price can sway your decision fairly easily. The meal at the pasta place can still have meat in it for this example to work, just less of it.)
      - theultdev 2y ago
        If it's over a steak place or pasta place it will be steak every time, no matter the price. I feel like shit after eating pasta, so I never eat it. I feel great after eating meat, so I always eat it. But we don't eat out, that's more wasteful and expensive than anything else. fires up the grill
maxglute 2y ago
Vegetarians visceral don't like meat the same way they like soybeans. It's somewhat trainable preference. IMO easier to get entrenched meat eaters to eat some more plants than convert plant eaters (especially religious) to meat.
dools 2y ago
I don’t think Europeans should stop eating meat but I think we should stop using protein rich food suitable for humans to feed livestock. Livestock are good for taking inedible grass and turning it into protein. Deforesting South America to grow protein rich cow food for Europeans is absurd.
- lostlogin 2y ago
  The environmental effects go further too. New Zealand has done huge damage to its waterways with cattle farming. It’s primarily dairy rather than beef though. Different end product, same beast.
  - dools 2y ago
    Fun fact: coffee with cow's milk tastes disgusting to me now. I'm a total soy milk convert, and that about does it for dairy. I rarely eat cheese. Eliminating dairy was trivial. I still eat meat though, but I live in Australia so we have relatively inexpensive grass fed stuff that is produced domestically (for now).
    - lostlogin 2y ago
      New Zealand dairy products are often cheaper in Australia than here in NZ where they are produced. I don’t get how that’s happening.

tivert 2y ago

> Reminds me of the statistic I heard recently that something like 95% of soybeans grown in South America are used to feed livestock in Europe, even though soy is already a complete protein and could be used to satisfy the protein requirements of more people locally, than the protein harvested from the livestock. Reminds me of a statistic that most people still like to eat food even though they could satisfy their protein requirements with a nutritional slurry at 34% of the cost with a 96% reduction in fueling times.

dathos 2y ago
[flagged]
highwaylights 2y ago
ITS PEOPLE! SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!
SSLy 2y ago
yep, that's the market huel, queal, etc cover.

MandieD 2y ago

If you want less rainforest destroyed to grow soybeans, eat more soybeans.

forty 2y ago
No rainforest have been destroyed by soybean that people eat. Meat production kills environment (with soybeans and more).
- wordofx 2y ago
  No it doesn’t.
  - wyre 2y ago
    Source please? Expansion of pasture land to raise cattle was responsible for 41% of tropical deforestation. https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation
    - Jensson 2y ago
      What about the remaining 59%? The poster said "No rainforest have been destroyed by soybean that people eat".
      - themk 2y ago
        I assume the "no it doesn't" was targeted at > Meat production kills environment The link above is responding to the "no it doesn't" by providing evidence that it does. But to answer your question (it's in the link, but I'll save you a click), the next biggest cause is "oil seeds", which includes a large hunk of soy. Most of the soy goes to animal feed, 13% goes to oil for human consumption, some goes to industrial uses, and about 7% goes to human consumption of what would usually be considered alternative to animal products (tofu, tempeh, soy milk, etc). Yes, eating anything is going to contribute to resource depletion, but what we eat makes a huge difference!

easytiger 2y ago

Yes, it is well known that beef and reconstituted processed soybean products have exactly the same nutritional content, eating experience, flavour, texture and satiating ability for the consumer. People enjoying this experience are clearly morally corrupt lumpenproletariat deserving to be shamed and cowed by the self flagellating self appointed protectors of the summum bonum.

eigenket 2y ago
Ah yeah, this seems like a perfectly sensible and not wildly exaggerated reply. I'm sorry that people taking personal responsibility for the results of their actions provokes such a response in you.
- easytiger 2y ago
  Which bit specifically do you have an issue with? Perhaps we can discuss it
  - eigenket 2y ago
    I mean I just skimmed through the thread you replied in and I don't see anyone making any of the arguments you're arguing against. No one is claiming that beef and tofu are identical in flavour or whatever. No one (as far as I can tell) is particularly shaming people for eating meat. I see people mostly making pretty sensible and measured arguments. Your comment is just arguing against a couple of strawmen you've cooked up. You aren't really engaging in the debate you're replying to.
    - easytiger 2y ago
      Then you clearly didn't read the comment i replied to

dxuh 2y ago

You are correct that soy bean protein is complete and the protein is of high quality, but it's a pet peeve of mine when people talk about protein completeness, as it is essentially false dichotomy. There is a (multi-dimensional) continuum of protein completeness in the sense that the amino acid profile doesn't just have to contain every essential amino acid, but has to contain it in the right amount, as is required by the average human being. Soy protein for example is particularly low in Methionine and Cystine. If your goal is to get enough of those, you might have to eat three times as much soy as for example egg whites (by weight). But similarly soy protein has more Tryptophan than beef. "Completeness" is a binary that is not quite sufficient to describe protein quality. There is a reason whey and egg proteins are more popular among strength athletes for example, as they are richer in leucine, which seems to be the limiting amino acid in muscle building. I still think we should eat way less meat and soy is a very high quality substitute for it.

sociorealist 2y ago
> I still think we should eat way less meat and soy is a very high quality substitute for it. "I still think _i_ should eat way less meat and soy is a very high quality substitute for it." There, FTFY. (i see the soyboys came, again, out of their woodworks already)
- qtk8 2y ago
  No, you are included in this too.
  - sva_ 2y ago
    You vill eat ze bugs, you vill own nothing, and you vill be happy
    - LargoLasskhyfv 2y ago
      Crunchy munchie, toasty tasty, yippie yaa jee haa!
2y ago

fransje26 2y ago

We could do a lot better than farming meat, by planting legumes instead. Not only would we relieve the pressure on arable land, we would also be improving the local soil quality as legumes are good nitrogen fixers.

ilius2 2y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcgChU4RpxM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcgChU4RpxM

mgraupner 2y ago

I did some fact checking on these figures and could not find a source for them. It seems that most of the soy goes to China. The dynamics of global soybean trade remain heavily influenced by China, which accounts for about 60% of worldwide soybean imports. China’s soybean imports are driven by demand for animal protein and edible oils, two essential components of a diversifying Chinese diet that reflects rising living standards. China predominantly sources its soybean supplies from Brazil and the United States. For many years, the United States was the top supplier, but in the last 15 years China has depended more on imports from South America, especially from Brazil. From 2019-2023, 73% of Brazil’s exported soybeans have headed to China, versus a 51% average for the United States (see Figure 2). Source: https://farmdocdaily.illinois.edu/2024/02/the-united-states-brazil-and-china-soybean-triangle-a-20-year-analysis.html#:~:text=From%202019%2D2023%2C%2073%25,States%20(see%20Figure%202) https://farmdocdaily.illinois.edu/2024/02/the-united-states-....

dools 2y ago
Yep you're right. The place I heard it was the Just Have a Think YouTube channel. He was quoting Hannah Ritchie: https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation#is-our-appetite-for-soy-driving-deforestation-in-the-amazon https://ourworldindata.org/drivers-of-deforestation#is-our-a... The figure is 75% of global soy goes to animals, and China is more than Europe (although EU is second largest importer of Brazilian soy after China). So the figures are 75% and China+Europe, not 95% and Europe. Either he got it wrong or I remembered it wrong! Thanks for pointing that out.