11 ms·
Nearly 2M metric tons of wild fish used to feed Norwegian farmed salmon annually
- throwaway211 2y agoThe effects are not just the ton of fish, or even the job lost, it's equivalent to scorching the earth and polluting the groundwater of land based farming affecting generations into the future.
- OccamsMirror 2y agoYeah, but salmon is delicious and consumers gobble it up. Don't worry about the externalities. That's (hopefully) for future generations to pay for.
- toomuchtodo 2y agoIt’s wild how people fret about birth rate declines while we’re also openly stealing from the future. Humans are disappointing. https://www.stockholmresilience.org/research/research-news/2023-09-13-all-planetary-boundaries-mapped-out-for-the-first-time-six-of-nine-crossed.html https://www.stockholmresilience.org/research/research-news/2... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39033002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39033002 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adh2458 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adh2458
- thriftwy 2y agoWe also leave the future with all the infrastructure we build, and you may provide your children with some direct inheritance if you manage to save instead of wasting capital on trinkets.
- toomuchtodo 2y agohttps://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a16995 https://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a16995 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeboat_ethics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeboat_ethics
- thriftwy 2y agoIt does not look like our numbers are increasing anymore, so I don't see how the latter is applicable. Middle East and Africa are booming and this is not ending well, but I just don't see what can be done about it.
- toomuchtodo 2y agoYou misunderstand population momentum. While fertility rates are rapidly declining, the global population still increases, and is projected to peak at ~10-11B people around 2100 (up from ~8B today). India will surpass China in total population around 2027, while already experiencing wet bulb temperatures beyond what the human body can survive. > but I just don't see what can be done about it. Agreed. https://populationeducation.org/population-momentum-explained/ https://populationeducation.org/population-momentum-explaine... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population https://www.un.org/ht/desa/world-population-projected-reach-98-billion-2050-and-112-billion-2100 https://www.un.org/ht/desa/world-population-projected-reach-... https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/06/17/worlds-population-is-projected-to-nearly-stop-growing-by-the-end-of-the-century/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/06/17/worlds-po... https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2305427120 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2305427120 https://archive.today/9sYS8 https://archive.today/9sYS8
- kortilla 2y agoWet bulb temperatures are about as relevant as hypothermia temperatures. We just invented the technology for heating long before air conditioning so uninformed people like to trot it out like it’s some relevant barrier where people will die in mass. They will just move to colder climates or generate some electricity to use air conditioning.
- seoulmetro 2y agoI love the idea of leaving infrastructure to our kids. But that doesn't even exist anymore. We're leaving the maintenance of poorly build infrastructure to our kids. We, and our kids will only reap reward from the infrastructure created over 100 years ago. The rest they will reap the maintenance required on the current stuff. Old things were built for us and our future, now we build for ourselves (barely).
- thriftwy 2y agoThis seems to be an issue with USA where the only infrastructural things seems to be mounting debt. China was building roads, rail and metros like crazy in the last 20 years. Moscow has got second metro ring and some highways are finally materializing. India probably has it all in the future as it is not satiated capital-wise. Buying a spare apartment for your children does not seem out of reach for many people, so their children do not have to ever cope with debt trap or face possibility of eviction. The West does indeed seem to be in a spending ideology crisis but it is not that relevant anymore.
- eru 2y agoSingapore for example is doing just fine in that regard, and is definitely part of the 'west'. Russia is currently in a big war that destroys a lot of accumulated capital. So I wouldn't exactly take them as a prime example of good stewardship. And even the much maligned US is doing just fine. It's just that their public infrastructure isn't doing as well as they should (for various governance reasons), but most private investment is holding up well. Their private sector is still the envy of the world; their public stock markets are still about as valuable as the rest of the world's combined.
- seoulmetro 2y agoSingapore isn't a part of the concept of "the West"...
- eru 2y ago
- Dalewyn 2y ago[flagged]
- eigenket 2y agoWe are humans. We are the smartest and most capable things on the planet. As far as we know we're the smartest and most capable things in the universe. That capability affords us a lot of privileges, including a much more comfortable life than we would otherwise have. I believe it also comes with some responsibilities, not particularly onerous ones, but just to do our best to leave the world in a not-worse state than we found it.
- Quothling 2y agoThe weird thing about salmon (and other fish farms) is that the fish they produce aren't necessarily more tasty than the fish they consume. I live in Denmark, we have some really delicious small fish but they are hard to sell, so they are generally used to feed fish farms instead. With the soybeans mentioned earlier I at least get why it's fed to livestock that are then fed to people. I'm not going to say it's the right thing to do but at least there is a difference between soy and pork. With fish it's literally taking one delicious fish and putting it into another (objectively less delicious) fish. So weird.
- thriftwy 2y agoYou can eat salmon in sushi rolls or just cut it into pieces and put on the bread. With other fish, you typically have to fry them first, which is a complex affair. The result is also much less predictable. There are also bones and fish skin which doesn't contribute to overall experience positively. I can eat salmon several times a week whereas cooking fish would be an once per month affair best case. Perhaps once a week if I didn't have to work for a living.
- profsummergig 2y agoIs the salmon pre-cooked? Or is it eaten raw?
- kortilla 2y agoRaw. It’s frozen at a low temp for a long enough time to make it safe to eat. Look up “sushi fda freezing regulations” for more info.
- Quothling 2y agoI know this will vary a lot based on where you live, but here in Denmark you can get sushi with a lot of our local smaller fish. Mackerel, herring and smelt are quite popular. I think a lot of it is because "sustainability" as a "brand" is just good market value here, but it's also just as good as salmon or tuna. Very few places actually use farmed salmon, though I'm not sure the Alaskan salmon are really that much better than Norwegian farmed salmon from a sustainability point of view.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- thriftwy 2y agoI don't believe the African situation is stable or sustainable hence we will see large scale tragedies on that continent in this century, that will make everything happened in the century XX a cake walk. I enjoy farmed salmon so I can't blame its growers for providing me food. If they are catching feed where it is harmful, some marine regulation should solve it.
- YZF 2y agoHere in BC, Canada, another problem with the farmed salmon is that diseases and parasites (e.g. parasitic sea lice) from the fish farms, which are in the ocean (surrounded by nets), get to the native population. My family avoids farmed salmon. I think as long as it's fished sustainably in the ocean (and we take care of the rivers) that's a better option.
- pprotas 2y agoI know you might have not meant it this way but the way I read your last sentence makes it sound like fishing in the ocean is per definition sustainable, which is far from the truth.
- ein0p 2y agoI find farmed salmon to be fatter and tastier. In fact I prefer it to wild salmon, even though it sometimes costs more.
- kortilla 2y agoWhat is special about farmed salmon that makes it happen there? Do you have sources indicating the disease rates?
- Tiktaalik 2y agoYou have an enormous amount of salmon in tiny pens in various sheltered bays and this artificial closeness breeds disease and parasites rapidly. The lice and diseases are then passed onto the wild salmon that pass through these bays on their migratory lifecycle routes. Thus wild salmon become dramatically more impacted from parasites and disease than they otherwise would be and thus the farmed salmon start to drag down the health and viability of the wild population.
- tyfon 2y agoNorwegian here. I live not that far from some fish farms (Mowi), and the wild fish around the farms are also inedible. Large fat bodies that taste weird. Most people here would never eat the farmed salmon either.
- reify 2y agoI have never eaten a farmed fish and I do not intend to, ever. Why would you do that? Its not only the destruction of wild fish to feed farmed salmon its also the Diseases, the parasites and the chemicals used by salmon farmers. Hundreds of thousands of farmed fish die in the fish pens. Crammed in like sardines, excuse the pun. The life of a wild salmon is amazing. Ecological destruction for profit. Yet again!!!!!!!!!
- epolanski 2y agoYou're naive if you seriously think that you have never eaten farmed fish. If you go to a sushi place you're eating farmed fish 100%, if you have eaten some salmon roll, you're eating farmed fish.
- rNULLED 2y agoIt is simple to imagine a person who has never eaten fish.
- epolanski 2y agoI don't think I know a single person who's never eaten fish nor I think it is possible at all. Even if you think you do, fish is actually added to a very large amount of processed food even if it has nothing do to with fish at all. Worchester sauce, salad dressing, protein bars, gummy candies, margarins, anything that contains omega 3, vitamins and an infinitely larger amount of fish and fish oil/paste is added to virtually anything you can find in the supermarket. Pork-derived collagen is the industry standard when it comes to clarification (e.g. people don't like to see wine that isn't transparent and has no sediments) so they are surprised there's pork used in a gargantuan amount of food. Same happens with fish. It's extremely unlikely people haven't eaten fish, even if they don't know it.
- DoingIsLearning 2y ago> I have never eaten a farmed fish and I do not intend to, ever. The probably is accurately knowing in order to make an informed choice. Naively I assumed certain species were likely to be farmed. But nowadays the advancements in aquaculture mean that more and more species can be farmed. Even Tuna and Cod can be captured small and grown to a larger size in captivity. My main concern is the health unknowns around feeding incenerated fish carcasses to fish that should be eating bottom of the ocean sealife and vegetation. It intuitevely takes me back to the 'mad cow disease' epidemic, with cow feed made out of slaughter house carcasses.
- dools 2y agoReminds me of the statistic I heard recently that something like 95% of soybeans grown in South America are used to feed livestock in Europe, even though soy is already a complete protein and could be used to satisfy the protein requirements of more people locally, than the protein harvested from the livestock.
- bwb 2y agoPeople don’t like soybeans the same way they like meat.
- TaylorAlexander 2y agoMaybe but that is cultural and influenced by marketing, public awareness campaigns, and access to quality prepared meals. Certainly in just the past 5 years I went from a meat heavy diet to a meat-free diet with a lot of consumption of soybeans (tempeh, tofu, soymilk, and cooked soybeans). We could encourage others to do the same with, as I said above, marketing, public awareness campaigns, and encouragement for meat-free restaurants. Not everyone would shift, but in aggregate we could change demand patterns and people would still be happy. I know I would much rather eat tempeh now than any kind of meat product.
- NayamAmarshe 2y agoYes, it’s all about culture and influence. As more and more people switch to a vegetarian/vegan diet, they keep coming up with more dishes and preparations. Innovation is bound to happen where there’s an influx of interest.
- djtango 2y agoI love food and I love eating. Some of the most interesting dishes are vegetarian because you have to work that much harder to bring a dish together. That really excites the chef/epicurean in me. And then you can just get a good quality slab of meat, give it a good char and sprinkle some salt on it and it'll stand on its own as basically a whole meal. I think meat could 10-50x in price and I'll still find a way to eat it or I'll venture off into the wilderness and hunt it myself. No one could convince me otherwise - there's really nothing like catching your fish and cooking it over an open fire to round a day spent in the outdoors... Gathering some nuts and fruit and blending soybeans to make tofu just doesn't have the same appeal to me... Even though wild fruit really are delicious and my friends stories of eating wild durian really inspire me to brave the sweat (and creepy crawlies and snakes) and venture off into the jungle
- timonoko 2y agoI seriously question this report. If you listen VHF radio at Alaskan Coast there is active market going on all the time. If the "Cannery" does not want the lot, the "Fish Plant" will. So it is not like they destroy valuable wild fish to feed less valuable farmed fish.
- TaylorAlexander 2y agoWould be pretty nice if they just caught less fish if they don't really need them all.
- timonoko 2y agoSome fish species are actually harmful to the environment. In the Nordic countries they often try to get rid of the roach, which muddies the water and destroys the habitat of more worthy fishkind.
- Gustomaximus 2y agoAre there any viable solutions here? - Larger vessels can only fish <increased distance> off shore? - Increase 'no fishing' zones which has shown great success in studies creating nursery locations Even if there is a solution would it be enforced off the coast of Africa? Some nations fishing fleets dont have the best reputation for following rules.
- fransje26 2y ago> Are there any viable solutions here? Not fish-farming salmon?
- grugagag 2y agoYeah, Chinese fishing fleets are a serious problem. Any solution would have to address them to make a difference.
- eru 2y agoYou could try to privatise ocean fishing populations; people are typically more careful with their property. > Even if there is a solution would it be enforced off the coast of Africa? I guess look into whatever we are doing to deter poachers of farm animals (especially for open grass land farming, the strategies used to protect barn animals might not work)?
- semi-extrinsic 2y agoAu contraire, what has actually been quite successful in the North Atlantic for the past four decades is the extension of territorial water limits out to 200 nautical miles and beyond. This is coupled with coast guard-enforced fishing quotas set by an independent panel of biologists. The fishermen complain loudly of course, which is a very good sign.
- eru 2y agoSorry, what I meant to write is more like 'really nail down the ownership rights, and have someone who's responsible'. 'Privatise' was just the short-hand I picked for that, but making a government responsible can also work, if you have one that functions well enough. What doesn't work is having only nebulous responsibility at best, no clear rules apart from 'first-come-first-serve' / take as much as you can.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y agoThere is also an epidemic of farmed fish being passed off as wild fish, especially at restaurants. There are many videos that cover fraud in the seafood industry, because it is very hard to verify what you're eating or how it was sourced without a lab.
- epolanski 2y agoI always get severely downvoted on social medias when I say it but the most impactful way we have to impact the planet on the single scale is with food. Obviously a full vegan diet is the greenest, but I can't do it. But if you are at least aware of the insane cost for the planet of fishing (regardless of farmed/non farmed) and raising animals (beef especially) I invite you to try to limit your intake. Maybe by eating less of it you can also afford to also raise the quality. fish/beef > pork > lamb/mutton > > poultry > cheese > eggs > vegetables If every time you eat you're at least aware of this scale, you may decide to switch some of your meals. Hamburger? Maybe eat some pulled pork. Pulled pork? You can replace it with lamb. Etc, etc down to vegetables. And if you really want that hamburger, enjoy it without any guilt! Do what you want, but know that changing your diet habits and sharing this information with others will have a more positive impact than buying an electric car (which will put some hundreds tons of CO2 in the atmosphere during production alone)
- NayamAmarshe 2y ago> I always get severely downvoted on social medias Why? Yours is not a fanatical take. You’re just explaining how we can contribute in a more positive way by putting the planet before our taste buds.
- epolanski 2y agoBecause of very basic human nature: we don't like to be told something we do is "wrong", and nobody likes the idea of eating a steak with some sense of guilt.
- TaylorAlexander 2y ago> Hamburger? Maybe eat some pulled pork. Pulled pork? You can replace it with lamb. I don't understand this. Is this based on CO2? Because I feel worse about pigs being killed, they are smarter than cows, and so subject to even more psychological horror in the factory farm. And lamb is horrible because a lamb is just a baby sheep. Sheep naturally live something like 8 years, but a lamb is a sheep that was killed at less than one year old. Seriously, vegetables, soy beans, and lentils are suuuper tasty.
- ec109685 2y agoThis is so lazy. How many tons of wild fish are farmed each year? How many tons of fish does this feed produce? This is very much word salad: “ In the report, Feedback calculated that the Norwegian salmon farming industry’s "feed footprint" is equivalent to 2.5 percent of global marine fisheries catch. The report also estimated that Norway’s annual output of farmed salmon is 27 percent lower than the volume of wild fish required to produce the fish oil used in Norwegian farmed salmon feed. The Norwegian industry’s plan to more than triple farmed salmon production to 5 million metric tons by 2050 would create demand for over three times as much wild-caught fish compared to 2020”
- Timshel 2y ago? 2M tons of wild fish used to produce 27% less farmed salmon ... The issue is not the absolute number but that you are using more to produce less. Off course as someone else mentionned not all those fish might be ready for consumption. But at the same time Norway toot Salmon farming as efficient but are all externalities really taken into account ?
- vasco 2y ago> The issue is not the absolute number but that you are using more to produce less I was under the impression that's how it is with all animals, they always need to eat more than what you get from them in terms of calories which usually will also equate to more weight (the comparison used here) in than out. Otherwise we'd have found some feeding process that's over 100% efficient which doesn't seem possible. In other words, they poop while they grow, unlike plants where the efficiency looks better.
- Timshel 2y agoYes just that usually you are feeding them something you can't east ... Last I checked you can't eat grass ... You are feeding fish to fish to produce fish. Of course this is not the exception as someone else mentioned: > 95% of soybeans grown in South America are used to feed livestock in Europe, even though soy is already a complete protein and could be used
- Kosirich 2y agoCan anyone knowledgeable comment on if farming insects, like grasshoppers that are apparently very efficient in turning feed to protein, will become a viable alternative for salmon and tuna farms?
- impossiblefork 2y agoInsects aren't any more efficient than chickens though, especially American chicken. Some insects, for example, mealworms can be more efficient than chickens on certain diets, but I think the complications, i.e. that they're so small and thus harder to deal with mean that it's not going to be worth it. But I don't want to characterise myself as knowledgeable on this topic, so this isn't the answer you and instead something which you can hope will provoke somebody to give you the real answer.
- eru 2y agoIt's viable, if you can get customers to pay. Many people don't like eating insects. Btw, shrimp are fairly popular, and they aren't that different from insects.
- netsharc 2y agoI guess after seeing how industrially farmed chicken/pigs/cows are raised, people wouldn't want to eat them either. But yeah, I like my meat, and don't feel well about the idea of eating insects.
- semi-extrinsic 2y agoYes, this is being seriously investigated. It was already approved for commercial use by the EU in 2017. Specifically the industry is looking at places where there is both waste biomass and low-grade waste heat available nearby, and close proximity to fish farms, in order to produce fish feed from farmed insects. AFAIK the black soldier fly (BSF) larvae and the yellow mealworm are the two species which are in focus. For BSF larvae I believe they have some extremely convenient biological urge to migrate once they have reached maximum size, so it's possible to set up systems where they "collect themselves" at the optimum size for processing into meal.
- xyproto 2y ago> Unfair competition from fishmeal factories, which offer more money for catches Would it be better if they offered less money? Overfishing should be regulated by law by the state that owns the resources.
- Drygord 2y agoYeah but it’s obviously the tiny little fish humans don’t want to eat.
- jamil7 2y agoFirstly, it doesn’t matter if humans wouldn’t want to eat them because they form a part of a food hierarchy that’s disruption ultimately damages humans. It also causes a cycle in which less wild fish is available and more must be farmed. Secondly, if you read the article you’d note that people do rely on those fish as a food source.
- Drygord 2y agoObviously the people are eating the farmed salmon in place of the tiny fish. The “food hierarchy” remains completely untouched.
- jamil7 2y ago> Obviously the people are eating the farmed salmon in place of the tiny fish. No they're not, read the article. > The “food hierarchy” remains completely untouched. I'm not sure how you've come to the conclusion that reducing the availability of food for wild fish leaves this system "untouched".
- Drygord 2y agoIt’s clearly a zero sum system. Every farmed fish consumed by humans is one less wild fish caught and taken out of the food chain. Would you also be concerned if there were more whales in the ocean? Because they eat literal tons of phytoplankton which is also a food source for other fish. I think you’re just refusing to see things logically.
- jamil7 2y agoThe idea that you can reduce the complexity of global fishing, farming and marine ecosystems to a zero sum system is flawed. Whales cycle nutrients when they eat phytoplankton and aren’t comparable to human activity, you’re just trying to divert the argument to something unrelated.
- koalaman 2y agoThey placed farms right in front of my house on a pristine part of bantry bay. Nobody wanted them and now the water on the shore is covered in orange scum. I don't dare swim anymore. They never should have been allowed because the flow of water is inadequate to clean the waste out into the open ocean, but they're very influential with the politicians. It's a disgrace.
- robocat 2y agoWe eat an extraordinary amount of the fish and seafood in the world from the ocean: “The global per capita consumption footprint in 2011 is estimated at 27 kg. [That figure also includes] the indirect use of capture fisheries production by the fishmeal sector.” “the conversion of wild-capture fish that would not be used for human consumption into fishmeal and subsequent use as aquafeed, results in an overall increase in human consumption of fish”. Figures do seem to show that most ocean fishing is for human consumption, but 16Mt of forage fishing (non-edible) is still greater than 10% of our total ocean fishing. About 75% of fish meal is used for farm fisheries (aquaculture), the other 25% for animal farming on land. Fish meal is ~3/4 made up of non-edible fish (forage fisheries) and at most 1/4 trimmings (in 2017). Finding good information needs persistance - but the above quotes use some of the keywords.
- CHB0403085482 2y agoMeatless https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FWWe2U41N8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FWWe2U41N8 How Sikh Chefs Feed 100,000 People At The Gurudwara Bangla Sahib Temple In New Delhi, India
- vixen99 2y agoThis is of of interest I think. "An Update on the Content of Fatty Acids, Dioxins, PCBs and Heavy Metals in Farmed, Escaped and Wild Atlantic Salmon (Salmo salar L.) in Norway" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7766777/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7766777/
- eterps 2y agoEating like a salmon is better than eating actual salmon: https://www.foodandwine.com/health-benefits-of-eating-wild-fish-8622761 https://www.foodandwine.com/health-benefits-of-eating-wild-f...
- walthamstow 2y agoIt's a damn shame that British people typically won't/don't eat mackerel or sardines. They are both delicious and they basically grow on trees around here. I make a sardine equivalent of a classic British bacon sandwich with salty crispy skin, lots of butter and soft white bread. My dad, as typical an Englishman as you might find, loves it.
- wodenokoto 2y agoI don't see the problem with refining resources. We convert cheap fish to expensive fish with a small loss. We also incur energy losses when we convert fuel to forward momentum or electricity to light.
- wordofx 2y agoDon’t know who would eat Norwegian salmon to begin with. It’s terrible tasting compared to salmon sourced elsewhere in the world.
- pvaldes 2y agoOf course. All animals need to eat. And don't make me talk about how many tons of wild fish consume the domestic cats in the planet each day.
- ogou 2y agoThe worst health advice and most conspiratorial food theories usually come from other tech folks in my workplace. The comments here seem to reinforce that.
- themk 2y agoThere is a great documentary that covers some of the other issues with farmed salmon (amongs other things) Eating Our Way to Extinction, available on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaPge01NQTQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaPge01NQTQ
- Depurator 2y agoOne of the main problems is the commoditization of salmon and race toward cheapest feed ingredients just like the other animal proteins such as cattle, poultry and pork. Its just that Salomon need marine epa and dha omega-3 oils and proteins while not being able to process carbs that well. There are promising alternatives but they have a hard time to compete since you cant carry the cost to the consumers. Ie few are willing to pay extra to get a Salomon fed with insect protein and gmo oil from plants or algae. Switching feed ingredients also have their own impacts that need to be taken into account.
- tannhaeuser 2y agoWhat have soy beans to do with it? This is about converting valuable wild fish to less valuable generic farmed salmon, isn"t it?
- ximus 2y agoSalmon farms need to go. They are a plague to the wild salmon populations. Here in BC Canada, our local area wild salmon populations are finally recovering after the closure of the local salmon farms. They crowd fish in biologically hazardous conditions, then pump them with antibiotics and chemicals to keep them alive. All this in open water pens shared with the rest of the ecosystem. One better solution seem to be inland salmon farms. Wild salmon are too critical to many food chains both in the water and on land.