12 ms·

Do Skis Get Blunt?

253 points by luu 2y ago

troupo 2y ago
Yes, the edge does get blunt. And you can notice it in close up photos. However, does it get blunt enough to affect performance? After all, it's not like a knife trying to cut through a piece of meat
- ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
  > does it get blunt enough to affect performance Edges matter on ice. And yes, the difference is noticable (if the edga has been blunt "enough").
  - vlovich123 2y ago
    How frequently do you need to tune? I usually only tune at the beginning of each season. Does tuning also prolong the longevity of the board? This article doesn’t seem to address that.
    - swader999 2y ago
      Filing edges and base grinding cuts material away so it shortens the life. Not a huge concern though. Racers typically wax and tune edges every 10-20 runs. Recreationally, if you are on a narrow groomer type ski on icy runs, every few days is great and will help you enjoy and improve faster. Well fitted ski boots are more critical though.
    - jcgrillo 2y ago
      I do edges every day (usually just a few passes with a fine stone and a light deburring with gummy stone), base wax as required by the conditions.
      - swader999 2y ago
        Yes, this kind of maintenance is quick to do and a best practice once you've setup the angles. Then you hit a rock and cry.
- Xylakant 2y ago
  On hard packed snow and ice, the difference is pretty stark. On softer snow or powder, the difference is substantially less noticeable.
  - 0wis 2y ago
    As the author said, in icy conditions it changes the day from scary to fun
- tw04 2y ago
  Try taking a slice out of a block of ice with a butter knife. Try again with a sharp butchers blade. The difference is quite pronounced.
  - creato 2y ago
    The question is whether this is a good model for an actual ski on ice. What you describe might be a good model for an absolutely perfect carve, but that basically never happens in reality. When it does, it’s on softer snow where the tuned corner of the edge is a negligible part of the overall interaction with the snow. I agree with the quoted skier in the post, tuning skis doesn’t matter. I am someone who puts 400+ days on one pair of skis before replacing them, I ski pretty rough terrain and hit my share of rocks, I’ve gotten maybe 3 ski tuneups in my life, I couldn’t tell the difference after any of them. The only things I did to care for them was to store them dry and wax them once per season.
    - djtango 2y ago
      Other people are reporting that they can feel it with ice. Do you ski much on ice?
      - creato 2y ago
        I’ve certainly skied ice and all kinds of crust. In my experience true ice isn’t that bad in terms of grip, it’s rarely so smooth that edges can’t easily grip on surface imperfections. It’s not fun to ski because it’s very high impact. I think what most people talk about as icy and slippery that seems to form on skied off groomers is actually some kind of crust that is hard to get edge hold in because the snow is somehow very firm but not well bonded to itself either, so what little edge penetration you get just scrapes off easily and doesn’t support the ski. When I try to picture what is going on in such snow, edge sharpness doesn’t matter, you might penetrate marginally deeper but that just means you’re scraping marginally more snow off.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
- jval43 2y ago
  It doesn't just affect performance, blunt edges make skiing down icy patches impossible. The effect is so pronounced that if you do enough skiing in a day you'll notice a difference even at the end of that day. The effect of a newly sharpened ski is noticeable immediately even if you're an absolute beginner. Even moreso if you're on a snowboard. Source: 30 years of skiing and snowboarding.
- huskdigselv 2y ago
  I have been an Austrian trained ski instructor since 2012 and I can tell you that a sharp ski is essential if you want to have carve in any conditions below where the snow isn't slushing or soft. I.e. any run that is either early day, windblown, mid-season (generally colder) or shadow side. HOWEVER 99% of the skiers on a mountain (and yes I mean 99%) do not actually ski on their edges, they do skidded turns (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4hioJ4ThJA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4hioJ4ThJA). And the same 99% will typically just slide off of hard and icy parts of a slope as they aren't comfortably riding their edge. To these people sharp edges matter, but less than to the few who successfully carve. But if you are within that 1% of skiers that do ski mostly on the edge, then a sharp edge is extremely important; you see true carving technique is a delicate skill: In order to carve properly you need to need to get your skis in a steep angle with the snow, which means you need to get your feet in a steep angle, which can only be maintained if you move your center of gravity into a position that isn't above your feet. Which effectively means your body is in a position that is out of balance. Similarly to how sprinting essentially is just leaning forwards and playing "catch up" with our legs, carving technique tries to do the same. Exception being that we use the rhythmical centripetal forces of turns and the resistance of the snow to create the balancing force (https://d3t7modobimpp4.cloudfront.net/uploads/_1200xAUTO_fit_center-center_none/ted-forces.jpg https://d3t7modobimpp4.cloudfront.net/uploads/_1200xAUTO_fit...). And this is why edges matter; because if the centripetal force provided from the carving turn isn't generated because the skis blunt edges cause them to slip, then instead of generating movement towards the skiers body (reestablishing balance), the skis will drift away from the skiers body (removing balance) resulting in poor turns if not slipping down onto ones hip. TL;DR: Very good skiers NEED sharp edges to ski well. Most skiers will be fine. (As a matter of fact I think 99% of all skiers will do just fine on ANY ski, and make more significant improvement from 2 days of ski school than any equipment upgrade or tuning that money can buy).
  - swader999 2y ago
    I aggre with this and boots are 90 percent the secret to progress. You could teach a beginner how to carve on a very flat slope though. The 99 percent that slide are just on too steep of a slope for their carving ability. Which is fine by the way. It's fun to go down steeper runs, even if you arent carving.
_huayra_ 2y ago
My rule of thumb is to get the edges tuned once a season (I clock ~40 days), usually after the last of the rocks is covered up by the initial snow. If one skis less than that, it's possible to get away with every other season, but keep a gummy stone to deburr the edges as needed. If anyone has any methods to reliably grind edges at home, I'd be interested. I have one of the edge tools and a bunch of files, but I basically destroyed a pair of skis (thankfully an old crummy pair, put to new use as part of an adirondack chair built from my busted skis) when trying to get it right. Considering a local shop will do it for $40 / pair, that seems like a better use of my time. Still, I've got that DIY itch to scratch about this and haven't seemed to get it right.
- svl7 2y ago
  A local shop might as well make things worse if they do not care too much and give your skis the standard treatment (e.g. different angle than before). Once you have a good edge, it's kind of similar as keeping a knife sharpened. No need to really grind every time, a fine polishing after skiing for a day is more than sufficient and makes your edges last a long time. Been using tools from here for 10+ years, they also have informative instructions: https://www.tooltonic.com/ https://www.tooltonic.com/
  - Kon-Peki 2y ago
    > kind of similar as keeping a knife sharpened. Professional chefs get their knives sharpened once or twice a year, depending on how often they use them. They hone their knives before every use. The honing rod that comes with your knife set is there to realign the steel molecules along the blade edge. Sharpening your knife removes metal and creates a new blade edge, which you have to hone frequently for it to stay as sharp as you want it. I wonder if the ski tech person was using terminology correctly but the skier/blogger didn't quite understand.
- matsemann 2y ago
  Not sure how you managed to destroy a pair of skis? It's mainly just to clamp the file onto a metal piece with the correct angle and grind away. Normally I put pen marks every few cms on the edge before I begin, then all those should disappear and I know I've grinded about the same all places. Or with a tool like Swix TA3008 it's hard to do wrong. Maybe need someone to set up the base angles, but then you can use it to touch up for years.
swader999 2y ago
I'm a ski race parent. I tune every couple of days on snow. My U12 boy skis on 0.5 degrees base bevel, three degrees side edge. Here he is on a firm course at his last race this year: https://youtu.be/RWYO2ib-qe8?si=CRH01ViFUFApSx_o https://youtu.be/RWYO2ib-qe8?si=CRH01ViFUFApSx_o Setting that up is difficult but it's pretty easy to maintain once it is there. Side cut.com has great advice and tools. If you are on groomers and ski on decent skis, not powder boards, it is worth getting a tune. For ski racing and carving on man made snow, it is very similar to ice skating, you'll want to tune very frequently.
- strstr 2y ago
  Do you mean .5 or 5 for the base bevel? 5 is quite far off the snow.
  - swader999 2y ago
    0.5 for base bevel with three degrees for the side is very aggressive for his age but his cuff alignment is dialed and he can handle it.
    - strstr 2y ago
      Thanks for the correction. I had just never heard of 5° degrees as a base bevel. Not sure why you seem defensive. Isn’t 0.5° (or lower) the factory tune for slalom skis? Might only be a thing for U16+.
      - swader999 2y ago
        All good, I didn't type it correctly initially. A lot of coaches in the past have been critical of those angles he's been on so I was probably anticipating it lol. Most kids that age are likely 0.75 and two degrees for Sl. And yeah older Fis kids are maybe trying zero base and perhaps 4 degrees on water injected surfaces.
        strstr 2y ago
m463 2y ago
I have to wonder... The article shows edges and the effect of sharpening. However, I would imagine corrosion makes much of the surface of the ski more abrasive and that could explain the grabbiness. Is there any science behind the edge assertions? almost all of it is anecdotal. I can't help but think of overengineering and a/v systems. For example, I can't tell any difference from different speaker wires (except bad cables), but I do notice hiss in amplifiers. And I think OLED might be superior, but honestly dark scenes are horrible during daylight hours unless you have blackout curtains in the room with the panel. No review or marketing ever talks about these practical details. Same with reflections with glossy screens.
- swader999 2y ago
  You will see rust on your edges if you leave them wet and don't wipe them off. It can be removed with a soft gummy stone. A thick layer of wax left on the skis and edges keeps them rust free over the summer. Typically done for race skis or higher end skis. I don't worry about corrosion much, but I'm tuning the skis I use on ice every couple of days. My powder skis get waxed every few days, edges only to set up the angles once. Maybe once a season after that or to fix as best I can when hitting rocks.
  - jajko 2y ago
    Edges makes bigger difference in ski touring or more appropriately ski alpinism. Meaning tricky steep slopes where you sometimes switch skis for crampons and ice axe and put them on backpack, wildly varying conditions on the slopes. Or using ski crampons when its less extreme. There, any advantage is very important, ie how precisely you put skins on skis to leave that little bit of edge for... edging, at least thats what we call it. I don't think it makes a massive difference there how sharp your edges are, but in steep icy/crusty slopes where your skis don't even leave a mark as you pass, only crampons a bit, everything helping is more than welcome. I never clean them thoroughly though so edges are rusty, 10-15 years of moderate use of skis makes no difference to me. Also, in usual piste skiing in resorts, if you go really fast, at least relative to rest of skiers, and slope is a bit icy, sharp edges make a lot of difference in how stable skis are in turns. There even I can feel difference between dulled and sharpened ones.
grivant 2y ago
[flagged]
- shermantanktop 2y ago
  It's an guy blogging about sports gear that he doesn't seem to have much experience with, but has instead used a geek gadget and reasoning-from-first-principles to analyze and then blog about it, with a youtube-style "I debunked the myth" flavor to the narrative. I have seen plenty of other stuff like this on HN...though this isn't the best example of the genre, that's for sure.
  - jval43 2y ago
    The article is fine, it's the discussion that is maddening here. Sometimes HN is just too much. This would have been great n-gate bait. Too bad that site isn't updated anymore.
    - KineticLensman 2y ago
      I used to ski religiously for 20 years but stopped for health reasons 10 years ago. I found the debate fascinating rather than maddening to see how the tech has continued to evolve. When I started (1986) it was still expected that you would use thin straight skis that were much taller than you were. Carving skis simply weren’t available, at least not at my beginning level
      - jval43 2y ago
        Now that you mention it I suspect this may be a big reason some people have had different experiences. I also started with long straight skis and they are a lot less forgiving than the carving skis that followed. Nowadays I see a lot more freestyle skis which are again a different thing, but I don't have much experience with those. So maybe that's where people are coming from. I'll admit the discussion has gotten a lot better by now, I guess I was just too early.
        2y ago
gorbypark 2y ago
It totally depends on the type of skier and the type of skis you have. I worked in the ski industry and thus lived and worked in ski towns for 15 years. If you are a ski racer, tuning edges matter. If you aggressively ride groomers all day, then they will matter. Riding big fat powder skis everyday, inside and outside of the resort? More or less doesn't matter. Are you a park rat that only ever skis the park? Those folks will actually detune their edges on purpose. If you are a beginner / intermediate skier (someone who never to rarely carves a ski), edges on the blunter side of things can actually help you out. Sure, it's a bit more sketchy on ice, however just doing a "slide turn" is going to be much easier. It will take less force to make your skis point where you want them too, making you much more confident. It's one of the reasons they put beginners on smaller skis. Less edge = easier turning. I have skis that were kept dry and haven't been sharpened in years and ski perfectly fine and it's exactly how I want them.
- swader999 2y ago
  For park or intermediate on ice, I would still give them a decent tune but use a one degree base bevel, that'll rarely hook but give a lot of confidence on ice.
- bamboozled 2y ago
  "Riding big fat powder skis everyday, inside and outside of the resort? More or less doesn't matter." Until you stop off at the bar on a Sunny day and ride home on dusk once everything has frozen again, then you'd be like "oh I wish I didn't tell everyone not to keep their edges in decent shape", as you fly off the cliff edge.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    Yeah but the whole way down you're saying to yourself "I shouldnta have that last drink" because you coulda made it home in time, instead of blaming your tools, unless you're a bad craftsman.
    - bamboozled 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
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strstr 2y ago
Unless you do your own tuning (or are willing to light money on fire) it’s hard to A/B test ski waxing/edge tuning. I kinda suspect this alleged olympic tuner didn’t cross compare, or just doesn’t ski in ways where you’d notice (he might just like skid turns through packed powder). Or he just uses backcountry noodles on groomed snow, and can’t tell since he’s using skis that won’t let him. Going from dull edges (even “well maintained” ones) to freshly sharpened is quite noticeable on icy days. I use 0°/4° and like the responsiveness and grip. From my long past race days (when I had to maintain several pairs simultaneously), I could tell that the wax design temp mattered deeply, though mostly >25f vs lower temp. High temp waxes are down right sticky in cold snow (and vice versa). But cold waxes are largely fine for middle temps (~10-20f or whatever). The (horrifying) fluoro stuff was also very effective, though probably banned by now if anyone is sane. I wasn’t able to tell the difference beyond the temp though, unless the skis were damaged. Though, I mostly just don’t wax these days since I’m not trying to eek out extra speed. Base bevel (the angle trimmed off the metal edge from the side that sits on the snow) matters and is largely ignored by skiers/snowboarders, since tuners are cautious, and skiers don’t know to ask. It determines how responsive the skis are (going from 0° to 1° means you need to tilt your leg an extra degree). You can only decrease it (or clean it up) by flattening the entire base and then sharpening, which requires specialized equipment. Edge bevel matters, but allegedly has diminishing returns. It (allegedly) gives a bit of extra grippyness. I’ve never quite understood why it matters, since it seems like it just narrows the metal very slightly. From my A/B testing, the freshness of the sharpening seems to matter more than the edge angle, but I’ve also never set it below 2°.
- jcgrillo 2y ago
  Switching to more aggressive edge angles (1° base, 3° side from 0° base, 1° side) on my snowboard made a huge difference. I can lock in a carved turn much easier on ice and don't catch my tails or any other sketchiness in slow floating transitions across the board. I think most of the improvement is attributable to base bevel, and I agree with your assessment that freshness of sharpening is important. I hit my edges with a fine grit stone and a gummy stone every morning before heading out, and by afternoon they're noticeably more dull and hold less well. One test you can do to measure this is to drag the top of your fingernail across the edge in a perpendicular manner. If the edge is sharp it'll shave a little ribbon of fingernail off, if it isn't it won't. I only ever use a file to change angles or if I need to take a bunch of material off to fix a large rock gouge (like something that would require also ptex repair). I ride a Tanker 201 with Upz hardboots and F2 plates.
MandieD 2y ago
If you’re a weekend warrior like me, for whom 20 days is a fantastic season, the binding release check that your shop should be doing as part of your ski service is probably the most important part, especially as your skis get older. I had to stop using my beloved “ice cutters” because one of the bindings failed to release in the shop. Up to that point, I had rarely been disappointed by them releasing too easily, and always relieved when they did release. Make sure that they use one of your boots for the test.
- swader999 2y ago
  Twenty days is still pretty serious, $1500 for a pass or $150 for a day ticket, gas, gear etc. So pay for at least one tune per year, maybe even three if you ski groomers with groomer type skis a lot. An effective way to test your bindings - put your skis on at a flat area and with boots done up, dig your edge in and try to twist your boot out of the ski binding with your own muscular power. It will hurt a bit and be hard to do, but if you can't, you need to lower your din.
  - burkaman 2y ago
    FYI, $1500 is very expensive for a pass and $150 for a day trip is incredibly cheap these days. You can get an Ikon/Epic pass for under $1000, and you should if you're going to ski more than a few days because even east coast mountains are charging $200+ just for the day pass.
    - swader999 2y ago
      Yep, I'm quoting Trudeau bucks. I think I paid 2,000 cad for a family pass next season.
    - trogdor 2y ago
      >You can get an Ikon/Epic pass for under $1000 Not anymore, you can’t. Epic is $1004. Ikon is $1359.
      - 2y ago
Reason077 2y ago
> "Last winter, I rode a ski lift alongside a guy who claimed to be a retired Olympic ski tuner." On another note, this is apparantely a high-risk occupation due to exposure to PFAS and other carcinogens in ski wax. The FIS recently banned the use of fluorinated wax in competitions, but it was the norm for many years. Not great to be a ski tuner breathing in all those heated/aerosolised PFAS compounds...
- swader999 2y ago
  Yes, we used to wear a p100 respirator with those waxes. Many didn't. Can't purchase them any more and I'm glad because they were crazy expensive
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- GuB-42 2y ago
  Are there studies that show that ski tuners are more susceptible to some specific diseases, and that it can be tied to particular chemicals, PFAS in particular. That would be interesting, as all the worries about PFAS is more along the lines of "it may be bad, and if it is we are screwed as we have dumped so much of it in nature and it doesn't degrade", but concrete evidence is still lacking today. Note that overheated PTFE is bad, but we are talking over 250°C, which is, I believe, way less than the temperatures used by ski tuners.
  - Reason077 2y ago
    I don't know if there are any specific studies of disease rates in ski technicians, or former ski technicians. But perfluorinated compounds are known to cause disease (including cancers) in animal studies, and blood studies have shown alarming levels in ski technicians, even months after the end of a season. There are certainly cases in other industries (such as the Dupont factory workers) who have demonstrably high rates of disease from occupational exposure to PFAS. The evidence was certainly compelling enough to convince the FIS to ban fluorinated wax, and from what I understand this ban is taken quite seriously. They have devices to check for fluorinated compounds on skis, and even the smallest trace of it can get you disqualified.
gkanai 2y ago
A lot depends on where you ski. If you're skiing in the Northeast US, where conditions are often icy, then yes tuning matters a great deal. If you race, or want precision in your turns, then tuning is important. If you're a powder hound in Utah or Niseko, then it matters a lot less.
actionfromafar 2y ago
Towel definitely does.
IsTom 2y ago
> Snow and ice are quite abrasive stuff Per wiki ice has mohs hardness of 2 to 4 depending on temperature and if it has fallen out of the sky I guess it shouldn't be mixed with sand or other abrasives. How is it abrasive then?
- chrisandchris 2y ago
  That assumes that most of the snow is actually fallen from the sky. In central european ski resorts, largest parts of ski lopes are not natural snow anymore (or are mostly mixed natural/artificial). And artificial snow has far more sharp crystals than natural snow.
  - IsTom 2y ago
    Shape doesn't matter what the shape is if it's softer than the other material, you can't scratch glass with chalk no matter the shape of it.
    - abakker 2y ago
      minerals in the snow / wind blown grit / rocks / banging around in the ski rack, the lift line, hitting poles, etc. You're right. Snow isn't hard enough, but, it's probably a mistake to assume it's just snow.
    - swader999 2y ago
      I think at a microscopic level, the sharp knife edge on your ski will become rounded after a few runs on ice just from the force involved. You are right, it has little to do with the nature of the snow crystals.
- mjhay 2y ago
  My guess is two things: 1. All snow has some level of particulates, especially older snow (moreso if there has been melting, because the particles/dirt/whatever concentrate on top). 2. Cornering on piste would put pretty big stresses on the tip of the edge. This could perhaps cause the edge to bend and curl, or even break little pieces off from metal fatigue. I think this would be a bigger deal in most winter skiing conditions.
tim333 2y ago
My skis used to hit a variety of rocks, dirt, grit and bits of metal. Even on clean looking snow there are probably bits of grit occasionally. I'm not sure pure snow would wear the steel edges significantly?
PcChip 2y ago
TIL skis have metal edges on them
- werdnapk 2y ago
  snowboards too
- throwaway7285 2y ago
  ...metal edges which apparently have to be sharpened from time to time, or not, as the case may be.
oldandboring 2y ago
Former junior and Masters racer here. Glad to see there's some very qualified voices in these comments, including a few who are currently involved (as racing parents). I very much appreciate the level of technical detail and accuracy in those comments. I'll talk base bevels all day. Pretty much agree with everything those folks have written. Most definitely sharp edges, and your bevels, matter when you are really pushing it, especially if you are racing, and most especially if you are on extremely hard or even water-injected snow. Outside of that type of skiing, the ski tech on the lift was, I think, making a point that is true enough for most "normie" skiers, and inadvertently the blog author validated it with the microscope experiment. The short version is that once your edge angles are set, "polishing" them with a diamond stone should, generally, mostly, be all that is necessary to restore the edge shape after use. No filing should be necessary. If the edge get damaged with rocks or rust, this is no longer true. All caveats apply. The ski tech is just trying to say "don't pay a shop to run your skis through the machine when all you need is to rub your edges with a diamond stone for a minute." Now, just how practical this is, again depends on who you are. You'd have to be: - A regular enough skier to own your own equipment - Good enough to benefit from a tuned edge - Technical and handy enough to buy a diamond stone and learn to use it - It has to not be impractical to go through this ritual after skiing (try doing this with two or three young, tired kids in tow) Anyway I just enjoyed having this be on the front page of HN today. I'm good at like 2 things and this is one of them.
- swader999 2y ago
  Nice clarification about the polishing once you have it setup. This is fairly quick to do too.
  - oldandboring 2y ago
    Believe it or not, as a junior I had the hardest time believing this. We'd be down in the waxroom filing our edges to death every other day and it would feel like I couldn't get an edge otherwise. The idea that the edge could be "polished" back to sharpness was alien to me. That being said, on skinny skis in the 90s, it took a lot of work to set an edge and little kids were at a disadvantage. I was basically skidding around and the sharp edges were just keeping it at bay.
throwaway7285 2y ago
So here's a silly question from someone who's never been near a...whatever you call a place where skiing is done. Skis have sharp edges? Why?
- aredox 2y ago
  To dig into snow (and sometimes ice) to turn and/or brake.
- oldandboring 2y ago
  Because while snow is soft and fluffy when it first falls, after a few temperature changes and having been groomed and skied on for hours/days, it transforms from snow crystals to ice crystals. Unless new snow falls on top, that's what you're gonna be skiing on, and you'll slide all over the place without sharp edges. Here is one of the best skiers in the world, on a race course set on a surface intentionally prepared to be solid ice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIHdHUg1FC4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIHdHUg1FC4
  - swader999 2y ago
    Great clip. Courses are considered more fair the firmer it is. The track will stay more consistent for more of the field of racers if it is firm.
baggachipz 2y ago
> Luckily, fixing this kind of damage isn’t hard. I use a 3D printed jig with a 500 grit diamond stone. A couple of glides down the edge is enough to completely clear this up. I don't ski often enough to own my own skis, so I rent them. Having used those rentals in icy conditions, I've had a lousy time due to their shoddy edges. A tool like this would make my day(s) on the slopes so much better. Anybody know of a place I could buy something like this, so that I could bring the rentals into "serviceable" condition?
- huskdigselv 2y ago
  A rental should be able to sharpen them if you address it. (And at least here in Europe all rentals sharpen their skis frequently enough). A good tester is to see if the skis edge grips the surface of your finger nail, the same way you would test a knife or a sharp tool (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHEuV2CPE3w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHEuV2CPE3w). If it slides across it with no friction, then it's a blunt ski. Personally, I would advice against trying to tune skis manually, because you might just as easily blunt the edge as you might sharpen it if you don't have a good jig and tools. Through my 12 years of teaching skiing, I will say that more often than not people who complain about icy conditions are held back by their technique; are you skid steering or carving, because when you are skid steering no level of ski tuning can make your edges stay on hard snow. (Tip: This guy has made an incredible amount of videos about the topic and has even himself progressed from being a skid steering freestyle skier to now being an excellent carver. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwWFlltWQTU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwWFlltWQTU).
  - baggachipz 2y ago
    A fair point; my technique is... slightly less than stellar. Especially when I hit ice, I tend to panic and try to slow down however possible. So I'll pay attention to sharpness next time I rent, but blaming the equipment is a favorite pastime of mine (read: golf).
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
devonsolomon 2y ago
Always good to see a ‘.co.za’ :)
MisterTea 2y ago
Sharp skis are necessary for good control otherwise you're just sliding around. Snow and Ice aren't the only things you ski over as there is a ton of dirt and other debris mixed in. Sometimes you get rocks and pebbles near trail edges. Heck, spring skiing will put you on trails with thin snow cover in addition to patches of grass and dirt that will destroy your skis (fun fact: hitting grass at speed is NOT fun - instant stop.) My father was also of the opinion that wax was a scam as he stated it would likely wear off in the first few runs. The idea was it filled in the scratches on the ski bottoms leaving a flatter surface. Maybe it works. maybe it doesn't. I always enjoyed watching the guys in the ski shops apply it by taking a slice of wax and then using a clothes iron, melt it like a pat of butter along the bottom.
- swader999 2y ago
  We could talk for pages about wax. Your father is partly right, it does wear off quickly, especially if you apply it correctly. I'd say wax is important in that it prevents the base from oxidizing. A dried out base is more difficult to turn and slower. Structure (small grooves in the base) will make you a second faster) Wearing a race suit vs a normal tight coat will make you two seconds faster. Proper setup edges vs no tune rounded edges will make you 5-6 seconds faster and with much lower chances of dsq. The type of wax is much less important. In a slalom race, choosing the best wax vs a less perfect type might only improve you by 0.02 seconds on a sixty second long race.
  - MisterTea 2y ago
    I guess that was the issue, we were casual skiers who just enjoyed the runs so when they offered wax, it was of no use to us so may father refused. This was at the mountain ski shop so you know they pushed everything they could.
HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago
As a US east/ice coast skier, I can say yes, skis do get blunt, and it makes a big difference. If you need to grip on ice you need sharp edges.
Zigurd 2y ago
Sports and folk knowledge have long been companions. I just saw an article about some teams running 25mm tires on the new gravel stage at the Tour de France because "25mm is fast." It doesn't help that elite athletes can be very opinionated about what is best for their performance, and they are so talented, fit, and well-trained they can perform well on deficient equipment.
- AtlasBarfed 2y ago
  25 mm became Vogue and cycling because wind tunnel testing showed it was superior in aerodynamics combined with a new carbon clincher rims If I recall correctly
  - Zigurd 2y ago
    My daily ride is an old race bike so 25mm is the widest that will fit between the chainstays. Also the widest that would not bulge out on old Mavic Ksyrium rims. If not for these questionable life choices I'd be on 30s. According to Continental, 28mm is the prevalent width for TDF teams.
    - AtlasBarfed 2y ago
      Oh right, I got confused, it might actually have been even bigger 28+mm on the TT bikes that was doing well in the wind tunnel testing. 25mm was the older "skinnier" size that was prevalent in the peloton, or even 23s or smaller. I think it also became apparent that rolling resistance was reduced on wider tires, so if an aerodynamic (and weight) formula could be made to make 28mm viable, it was better.
skiexperte 2y ago
Its a shitty article. Just looking at your skies and seeing an 'issue' doesn't tell you anything besides the fact that yes something had fun with that edge. Questions which are completly unanswered: How long does a sharp edge actually stay as it is? If it looks like this after 5 minutes, it doesn't matter. It also doesn't say if it was snow, ice or stones/ground killing that edge. And as far as i remember, he didn't say anything regarding the waxing.
- trompetenaccoun 2y ago
  >If you keep your skis dry between days out they’ll stay sharp for their entire lifetime. Don’t get him started on waxing. His specific claim was that skis get blunt from corrosion, and all you have to do is keep them dry. Stopped reading around there. He actually took a microscope to verify what should be common sense for anyone with a basic understanding of physics. And then didn't even do it properly like you point out. Is it only my perception or are people getting more gullible/stupid? It's something I notice more and more, someone says something obviously ridiculous but instead of dismissing it and filing the person under 'nutter', my feeling is more and more misinformation is taken serious or at least considered as potentially true. Or maybe it's an increasing lack of social skills? Maybe there's a decreasing understanding of the fact that the chance of running into a random guy telling tall tales, being misinformed or outright crazy is high when you're out somewhere with hundreds of people.
hoosieree 2y ago
As an amateur woodworker, this is not changing my belief that a $50 USB microscope is one of the most expensive things a hobbyist can buy.
paddy_m 2y ago
I'm in a ski share house in the northeast. Last winter I organized a ski tuning clinic put on by the local ski shop that does race tunes. I thought that only the expert nerdy skiers in the house would be interested, but everyone was fascinated. Most of the attendees won't tune their own skis, but they will know what to look for in their skis, and when to take them in. Also, in the north east, tuned skis absolutely matter, whatever level you are. My wife has been learning to ski and had trouble with ice. So I put on her beginner skis, and said, ahh no wonder, went back and tuned them. Then I put her on my slalom skis because she didn't trust her skis to initiate a turn (slalom skis are famously quick to initiate), and she could turn them quickly. Then I tuned one edge of each slalom ski with a more aggressive tune, but she could swap back to regular if she wanted. Finally, she was skidding her turns too much, so I put her on my GS skis, which forced her to patiently start the turn then follow it through. She now has a good idea of when she's having trouble with the ski shape, the conditions or the ski tune after 35 total days of skiing. If you put a beginner or intermediate on race skis, make sure the tune is mellow enough. Slalom skis at 0.5 and 86, will hunt when not turning, and can grab an edge throwing you to the ground. At the steeper angles (86/87 vs 88/89) it is much harder to skid the ski for speed control. When you head out with a beginner, you can always bring a diamond stone and detune the tip/tail, on the mountain even. They will notice the difference and appreciate it.

253 points by luu 2y ago

Yes, the edge does get blunt. And you can notice it in close up photos. However, does it get blunt enough to affect performance? After all, it's not like a knife trying to cut through a piece of meat

ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
> does it get blunt enough to affect performance Edges matter on ice. And yes, the difference is noticable (if the edga has been blunt "enough").
- vlovich123 2y ago
  How frequently do you need to tune? I usually only tune at the beginning of each season. Does tuning also prolong the longevity of the board? This article doesn’t seem to address that.
  - swader999 2y ago
    Filing edges and base grinding cuts material away so it shortens the life. Not a huge concern though. Racers typically wax and tune edges every 10-20 runs. Recreationally, if you are on a narrow groomer type ski on icy runs, every few days is great and will help you enjoy and improve faster. Well fitted ski boots are more critical though.
  - jcgrillo 2y ago
    I do edges every day (usually just a few passes with a fine stone and a light deburring with gummy stone), base wax as required by the conditions.
    - swader999 2y ago
      Yes, this kind of maintenance is quick to do and a best practice once you've setup the angles. Then you hit a rock and cry.
Xylakant 2y ago
On hard packed snow and ice, the difference is pretty stark. On softer snow or powder, the difference is substantially less noticeable.
- 0wis 2y ago
  As the author said, in icy conditions it changes the day from scary to fun
tw04 2y ago
Try taking a slice out of a block of ice with a butter knife. Try again with a sharp butchers blade. The difference is quite pronounced.
- creato 2y ago
  The question is whether this is a good model for an actual ski on ice. What you describe might be a good model for an absolutely perfect carve, but that basically never happens in reality. When it does, it’s on softer snow where the tuned corner of the edge is a negligible part of the overall interaction with the snow. I agree with the quoted skier in the post, tuning skis doesn’t matter. I am someone who puts 400+ days on one pair of skis before replacing them, I ski pretty rough terrain and hit my share of rocks, I’ve gotten maybe 3 ski tuneups in my life, I couldn’t tell the difference after any of them. The only things I did to care for them was to store them dry and wax them once per season.
  - djtango 2y ago
    Other people are reporting that they can feel it with ice. Do you ski much on ice?
    - creato 2y ago
      I’ve certainly skied ice and all kinds of crust. In my experience true ice isn’t that bad in terms of grip, it’s rarely so smooth that edges can’t easily grip on surface imperfections. It’s not fun to ski because it’s very high impact. I think what most people talk about as icy and slippery that seems to form on skied off groomers is actually some kind of crust that is hard to get edge hold in because the snow is somehow very firm but not well bonded to itself either, so what little edge penetration you get just scrapes off easily and doesn’t support the ski. When I try to picture what is going on in such snow, edge sharpness doesn’t matter, you might penetrate marginally deeper but that just means you’re scraping marginally more snow off.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
jval43 2y ago
It doesn't just affect performance, blunt edges make skiing down icy patches impossible. The effect is so pronounced that if you do enough skiing in a day you'll notice a difference even at the end of that day. The effect of a newly sharpened ski is noticeable immediately even if you're an absolute beginner. Even moreso if you're on a snowboard. Source: 30 years of skiing and snowboarding.
huskdigselv 2y ago
I have been an Austrian trained ski instructor since 2012 and I can tell you that a sharp ski is essential if you want to have carve in any conditions below where the snow isn't slushing or soft. I.e. any run that is either early day, windblown, mid-season (generally colder) or shadow side. HOWEVER 99% of the skiers on a mountain (and yes I mean 99%) do not actually ski on their edges, they do skidded turns (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4hioJ4ThJA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4hioJ4ThJA). And the same 99% will typically just slide off of hard and icy parts of a slope as they aren't comfortably riding their edge. To these people sharp edges matter, but less than to the few who successfully carve. But if you are within that 1% of skiers that do ski mostly on the edge, then a sharp edge is extremely important; you see true carving technique is a delicate skill: In order to carve properly you need to need to get your skis in a steep angle with the snow, which means you need to get your feet in a steep angle, which can only be maintained if you move your center of gravity into a position that isn't above your feet. Which effectively means your body is in a position that is out of balance. Similarly to how sprinting essentially is just leaning forwards and playing "catch up" with our legs, carving technique tries to do the same. Exception being that we use the rhythmical centripetal forces of turns and the resistance of the snow to create the balancing force (https://d3t7modobimpp4.cloudfront.net/uploads/_1200xAUTO_fit_center-center_none/ted-forces.jpg https://d3t7modobimpp4.cloudfront.net/uploads/_1200xAUTO_fit...). And this is why edges matter; because if the centripetal force provided from the carving turn isn't generated because the skis blunt edges cause them to slip, then instead of generating movement towards the skiers body (reestablishing balance), the skis will drift away from the skiers body (removing balance) resulting in poor turns if not slipping down onto ones hip. TL;DR: Very good skiers NEED sharp edges to ski well. Most skiers will be fine. (As a matter of fact I think 99% of all skiers will do just fine on ANY ski, and make more significant improvement from 2 days of ski school than any equipment upgrade or tuning that money can buy).
- swader999 2y ago
  I aggre with this and boots are 90 percent the secret to progress. You could teach a beginner how to carve on a very flat slope though. The 99 percent that slide are just on too steep of a slope for their carving ability. Which is fine by the way. It's fun to go down steeper runs, even if you arent carving.

_huayra_ 2y ago

My rule of thumb is to get the edges tuned once a season (I clock ~40 days), usually after the last of the rocks is covered up by the initial snow. If one skis less than that, it's possible to get away with every other season, but keep a gummy stone to deburr the edges as needed. If anyone has any methods to reliably grind edges at home, I'd be interested. I have one of the edge tools and a bunch of files, but I basically destroyed a pair of skis (thankfully an old crummy pair, put to new use as part of an adirondack chair built from my busted skis) when trying to get it right. Considering a local shop will do it for $40 / pair, that seems like a better use of my time. Still, I've got that DIY itch to scratch about this and haven't seemed to get it right.

svl7 2y ago
A local shop might as well make things worse if they do not care too much and give your skis the standard treatment (e.g. different angle than before). Once you have a good edge, it's kind of similar as keeping a knife sharpened. No need to really grind every time, a fine polishing after skiing for a day is more than sufficient and makes your edges last a long time. Been using tools from here for 10+ years, they also have informative instructions: https://www.tooltonic.com/ https://www.tooltonic.com/
- Kon-Peki 2y ago
  > kind of similar as keeping a knife sharpened. Professional chefs get their knives sharpened once or twice a year, depending on how often they use them. They hone their knives before every use. The honing rod that comes with your knife set is there to realign the steel molecules along the blade edge. Sharpening your knife removes metal and creates a new blade edge, which you have to hone frequently for it to stay as sharp as you want it. I wonder if the ski tech person was using terminology correctly but the skier/blogger didn't quite understand.
matsemann 2y ago
Not sure how you managed to destroy a pair of skis? It's mainly just to clamp the file onto a metal piece with the correct angle and grind away. Normally I put pen marks every few cms on the edge before I begin, then all those should disappear and I know I've grinded about the same all places. Or with a tool like Swix TA3008 it's hard to do wrong. Maybe need someone to set up the base angles, but then you can use it to touch up for years.

swader999 2y ago

I'm a ski race parent. I tune every couple of days on snow. My U12 boy skis on 0.5 degrees base bevel, three degrees side edge. Here he is on a firm course at his last race this year: https://youtu.be/RWYO2ib-qe8?si=CRH01ViFUFApSx_o https://youtu.be/RWYO2ib-qe8?si=CRH01ViFUFApSx_o Setting that up is difficult but it's pretty easy to maintain once it is there. Side cut.com has great advice and tools. If you are on groomers and ski on decent skis, not powder boards, it is worth getting a tune. For ski racing and carving on man made snow, it is very similar to ice skating, you'll want to tune very frequently.

strstr 2y ago
Do you mean .5 or 5 for the base bevel? 5 is quite far off the snow.
- swader999 2y ago
  0.5 for base bevel with three degrees for the side is very aggressive for his age but his cuff alignment is dialed and he can handle it.
  - strstr 2y ago
    Thanks for the correction. I had just never heard of 5° degrees as a base bevel. Not sure why you seem defensive. Isn’t 0.5° (or lower) the factory tune for slalom skis? Might only be a thing for U16+.
    - swader999 2y ago
      All good, I didn't type it correctly initially. A lot of coaches in the past have been critical of those angles he's been on so I was probably anticipating it lol. Most kids that age are likely 0.75 and two degrees for Sl. And yeah older Fis kids are maybe trying zero base and perhaps 4 degrees on water injected surfaces.
      - strstr 2y ago

m463 2y ago

I have to wonder... The article shows edges and the effect of sharpening. However, I would imagine corrosion makes much of the surface of the ski more abrasive and that could explain the grabbiness. Is there any science behind the edge assertions? almost all of it is anecdotal. I can't help but think of overengineering and a/v systems. For example, I can't tell any difference from different speaker wires (except bad cables), but I do notice hiss in amplifiers. And I think OLED might be superior, but honestly dark scenes are horrible during daylight hours unless you have blackout curtains in the room with the panel. No review or marketing ever talks about these practical details. Same with reflections with glossy screens.

swader999 2y ago
You will see rust on your edges if you leave them wet and don't wipe them off. It can be removed with a soft gummy stone. A thick layer of wax left on the skis and edges keeps them rust free over the summer. Typically done for race skis or higher end skis. I don't worry about corrosion much, but I'm tuning the skis I use on ice every couple of days. My powder skis get waxed every few days, edges only to set up the angles once. Maybe once a season after that or to fix as best I can when hitting rocks.
- jajko 2y ago
  Edges makes bigger difference in ski touring or more appropriately ski alpinism. Meaning tricky steep slopes where you sometimes switch skis for crampons and ice axe and put them on backpack, wildly varying conditions on the slopes. Or using ski crampons when its less extreme. There, any advantage is very important, ie how precisely you put skins on skis to leave that little bit of edge for... edging, at least thats what we call it. I don't think it makes a massive difference there how sharp your edges are, but in steep icy/crusty slopes where your skis don't even leave a mark as you pass, only crampons a bit, everything helping is more than welcome. I never clean them thoroughly though so edges are rusty, 10-15 years of moderate use of skis makes no difference to me. Also, in usual piste skiing in resorts, if you go really fast, at least relative to rest of skiers, and slope is a bit icy, sharp edges make a lot of difference in how stable skis are in turns. There even I can feel difference between dulled and sharpened ones.

grivant 2y ago

[flagged]

shermantanktop 2y ago
It's an guy blogging about sports gear that he doesn't seem to have much experience with, but has instead used a geek gadget and reasoning-from-first-principles to analyze and then blog about it, with a youtube-style "I debunked the myth" flavor to the narrative. I have seen plenty of other stuff like this on HN...though this isn't the best example of the genre, that's for sure.
- jval43 2y ago
  The article is fine, it's the discussion that is maddening here. Sometimes HN is just too much. This would have been great n-gate bait. Too bad that site isn't updated anymore.
  - KineticLensman 2y ago
    I used to ski religiously for 20 years but stopped for health reasons 10 years ago. I found the debate fascinating rather than maddening to see how the tech has continued to evolve. When I started (1986) it was still expected that you would use thin straight skis that were much taller than you were. Carving skis simply weren’t available, at least not at my beginning level
    - jval43 2y ago
      Now that you mention it I suspect this may be a big reason some people have had different experiences. I also started with long straight skis and they are a lot less forgiving than the carving skis that followed. Nowadays I see a lot more freestyle skis which are again a different thing, but I don't have much experience with those. So maybe that's where people are coming from. I'll admit the discussion has gotten a lot better by now, I guess I was just too early.
      - 2y ago

gorbypark 2y ago

It totally depends on the type of skier and the type of skis you have. I worked in the ski industry and thus lived and worked in ski towns for 15 years. If you are a ski racer, tuning edges matter. If you aggressively ride groomers all day, then they will matter. Riding big fat powder skis everyday, inside and outside of the resort? More or less doesn't matter. Are you a park rat that only ever skis the park? Those folks will actually detune their edges on purpose. If you are a beginner / intermediate skier (someone who never to rarely carves a ski), edges on the blunter side of things can actually help you out. Sure, it's a bit more sketchy on ice, however just doing a "slide turn" is going to be much easier. It will take less force to make your skis point where you want them too, making you much more confident. It's one of the reasons they put beginners on smaller skis. Less edge = easier turning. I have skis that were kept dry and haven't been sharpened in years and ski perfectly fine and it's exactly how I want them.

swader999 2y ago
For park or intermediate on ice, I would still give them a decent tune but use a one degree base bevel, that'll rarely hook but give a lot of confidence on ice.
bamboozled 2y ago
"Riding big fat powder skis everyday, inside and outside of the resort? More or less doesn't matter." Until you stop off at the bar on a Sunny day and ride home on dusk once everything has frozen again, then you'd be like "oh I wish I didn't tell everyone not to keep their edges in decent shape", as you fly off the cliff edge.
- fragmede 2y ago
  Yeah but the whole way down you're saying to yourself "I shouldnta have that last drink" because you coulda made it home in time, instead of blaming your tools, unless you're a bad craftsman.
  - bamboozled 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

strstr 2y ago

Unless you do your own tuning (or are willing to light money on fire) it’s hard to A/B test ski waxing/edge tuning. I kinda suspect this alleged olympic tuner didn’t cross compare, or just doesn’t ski in ways where you’d notice (he might just like skid turns through packed powder). Or he just uses backcountry noodles on groomed snow, and can’t tell since he’s using skis that won’t let him. Going from dull edges (even “well maintained” ones) to freshly sharpened is quite noticeable on icy days. I use 0°/4° and like the responsiveness and grip. From my long past race days (when I had to maintain several pairs simultaneously), I could tell that the wax design temp mattered deeply, though mostly >25f vs lower temp. High temp waxes are down right sticky in cold snow (and vice versa). But cold waxes are largely fine for middle temps (~10-20f or whatever). The (horrifying) fluoro stuff was also very effective, though probably banned by now if anyone is sane. I wasn’t able to tell the difference beyond the temp though, unless the skis were damaged. Though, I mostly just don’t wax these days since I’m not trying to eek out extra speed. Base bevel (the angle trimmed off the metal edge from the side that sits on the snow) matters and is largely ignored by skiers/snowboarders, since tuners are cautious, and skiers don’t know to ask. It determines how responsive the skis are (going from 0° to 1° means you need to tilt your leg an extra degree). You can only decrease it (or clean it up) by flattening the entire base and then sharpening, which requires specialized equipment. Edge bevel matters, but allegedly has diminishing returns. It (allegedly) gives a bit of extra grippyness. I’ve never quite understood why it matters, since it seems like it just narrows the metal very slightly. From my A/B testing, the freshness of the sharpening seems to matter more than the edge angle, but I’ve also never set it below 2°.

jcgrillo 2y ago
Switching to more aggressive edge angles (1° base, 3° side from 0° base, 1° side) on my snowboard made a huge difference. I can lock in a carved turn much easier on ice and don't catch my tails or any other sketchiness in slow floating transitions across the board. I think most of the improvement is attributable to base bevel, and I agree with your assessment that freshness of sharpening is important. I hit my edges with a fine grit stone and a gummy stone every morning before heading out, and by afternoon they're noticeably more dull and hold less well. One test you can do to measure this is to drag the top of your fingernail across the edge in a perpendicular manner. If the edge is sharp it'll shave a little ribbon of fingernail off, if it isn't it won't. I only ever use a file to change angles or if I need to take a bunch of material off to fix a large rock gouge (like something that would require also ptex repair). I ride a Tanker 201 with Upz hardboots and F2 plates.

MandieD 2y ago

If you’re a weekend warrior like me, for whom 20 days is a fantastic season, the binding release check that your shop should be doing as part of your ski service is probably the most important part, especially as your skis get older. I had to stop using my beloved “ice cutters” because one of the bindings failed to release in the shop. Up to that point, I had rarely been disappointed by them releasing too easily, and always relieved when they did release. Make sure that they use one of your boots for the test.

swader999 2y ago
Twenty days is still pretty serious, $1500 for a pass or $150 for a day ticket, gas, gear etc. So pay for at least one tune per year, maybe even three if you ski groomers with groomer type skis a lot. An effective way to test your bindings - put your skis on at a flat area and with boots done up, dig your edge in and try to twist your boot out of the ski binding with your own muscular power. It will hurt a bit and be hard to do, but if you can't, you need to lower your din.
- burkaman 2y ago
  FYI, $1500 is very expensive for a pass and $150 for a day trip is incredibly cheap these days. You can get an Ikon/Epic pass for under $1000, and you should if you're going to ski more than a few days because even east coast mountains are charging $200+ just for the day pass.
  - swader999 2y ago
    Yep, I'm quoting Trudeau bucks. I think I paid 2,000 cad for a family pass next season.
  - trogdor 2y ago
    >You can get an Ikon/Epic pass for under $1000 Not anymore, you can’t. Epic is $1004. Ikon is $1359.
    - 2y ago

Reason077 2y ago

> "Last winter, I rode a ski lift alongside a guy who claimed to be a retired Olympic ski tuner." On another note, this is apparantely a high-risk occupation due to exposure to PFAS and other carcinogens in ski wax. The FIS recently banned the use of fluorinated wax in competitions, but it was the norm for many years. Not great to be a ski tuner breathing in all those heated/aerosolised PFAS compounds...

swader999 2y ago
Yes, we used to wear a p100 respirator with those waxes. Many didn't. Can't purchase them any more and I'm glad because they were crazy expensive
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
GuB-42 2y ago
Are there studies that show that ski tuners are more susceptible to some specific diseases, and that it can be tied to particular chemicals, PFAS in particular. That would be interesting, as all the worries about PFAS is more along the lines of "it may be bad, and if it is we are screwed as we have dumped so much of it in nature and it doesn't degrade", but concrete evidence is still lacking today. Note that overheated PTFE is bad, but we are talking over 250°C, which is, I believe, way less than the temperatures used by ski tuners.
- Reason077 2y ago
  I don't know if there are any specific studies of disease rates in ski technicians, or former ski technicians. But perfluorinated compounds are known to cause disease (including cancers) in animal studies, and blood studies have shown alarming levels in ski technicians, even months after the end of a season. There are certainly cases in other industries (such as the Dupont factory workers) who have demonstrably high rates of disease from occupational exposure to PFAS. The evidence was certainly compelling enough to convince the FIS to ban fluorinated wax, and from what I understand this ban is taken quite seriously. They have devices to check for fluorinated compounds on skis, and even the smallest trace of it can get you disqualified.

gkanai 2y ago

A lot depends on where you ski. If you're skiing in the Northeast US, where conditions are often icy, then yes tuning matters a great deal. If you race, or want precision in your turns, then tuning is important. If you're a powder hound in Utah or Niseko, then it matters a lot less.

actionfromafar 2y ago

Towel definitely does.

IsTom 2y ago

> Snow and ice are quite abrasive stuff Per wiki ice has mohs hardness of 2 to 4 depending on temperature and if it has fallen out of the sky I guess it shouldn't be mixed with sand or other abrasives. How is it abrasive then?

chrisandchris 2y ago
That assumes that most of the snow is actually fallen from the sky. In central european ski resorts, largest parts of ski lopes are not natural snow anymore (or are mostly mixed natural/artificial). And artificial snow has far more sharp crystals than natural snow.
- IsTom 2y ago
  Shape doesn't matter what the shape is if it's softer than the other material, you can't scratch glass with chalk no matter the shape of it.
  - abakker 2y ago
    minerals in the snow / wind blown grit / rocks / banging around in the ski rack, the lift line, hitting poles, etc. You're right. Snow isn't hard enough, but, it's probably a mistake to assume it's just snow.
  - swader999 2y ago
    I think at a microscopic level, the sharp knife edge on your ski will become rounded after a few runs on ice just from the force involved. You are right, it has little to do with the nature of the snow crystals.
mjhay 2y ago
My guess is two things: 1. All snow has some level of particulates, especially older snow (moreso if there has been melting, because the particles/dirt/whatever concentrate on top). 2. Cornering on piste would put pretty big stresses on the tip of the edge. This could perhaps cause the edge to bend and curl, or even break little pieces off from metal fatigue. I think this would be a bigger deal in most winter skiing conditions.

tim333 2y ago

My skis used to hit a variety of rocks, dirt, grit and bits of metal. Even on clean looking snow there are probably bits of grit occasionally. I'm not sure pure snow would wear the steel edges significantly?

PcChip 2y ago

TIL skis have metal edges on them

werdnapk 2y ago
snowboards too
throwaway7285 2y ago
...metal edges which apparently have to be sharpened from time to time, or not, as the case may be.

oldandboring 2y ago

Former junior and Masters racer here. Glad to see there's some very qualified voices in these comments, including a few who are currently involved (as racing parents). I very much appreciate the level of technical detail and accuracy in those comments. I'll talk base bevels all day. Pretty much agree with everything those folks have written. Most definitely sharp edges, and your bevels, matter when you are really pushing it, especially if you are racing, and most especially if you are on extremely hard or even water-injected snow. Outside of that type of skiing, the ski tech on the lift was, I think, making a point that is true enough for most "normie" skiers, and inadvertently the blog author validated it with the microscope experiment. The short version is that once your edge angles are set, "polishing" them with a diamond stone should, generally, mostly, be all that is necessary to restore the edge shape after use. No filing should be necessary. If the edge get damaged with rocks or rust, this is no longer true. All caveats apply. The ski tech is just trying to say "don't pay a shop to run your skis through the machine when all you need is to rub your edges with a diamond stone for a minute." Now, just how practical this is, again depends on who you are. You'd have to be: - A regular enough skier to own your own equipment - Good enough to benefit from a tuned edge - Technical and handy enough to buy a diamond stone and learn to use it - It has to not be impractical to go through this ritual after skiing (try doing this with two or three young, tired kids in tow) Anyway I just enjoyed having this be on the front page of HN today. I'm good at like 2 things and this is one of them.

swader999 2y ago
Nice clarification about the polishing once you have it setup. This is fairly quick to do too.
- oldandboring 2y ago
  Believe it or not, as a junior I had the hardest time believing this. We'd be down in the waxroom filing our edges to death every other day and it would feel like I couldn't get an edge otherwise. The idea that the edge could be "polished" back to sharpness was alien to me. That being said, on skinny skis in the 90s, it took a lot of work to set an edge and little kids were at a disadvantage. I was basically skidding around and the sharp edges were just keeping it at bay.

throwaway7285 2y ago

So here's a silly question from someone who's never been near a...whatever you call a place where skiing is done. Skis have sharp edges? Why?

aredox 2y ago
To dig into snow (and sometimes ice) to turn and/or brake.
oldandboring 2y ago
Because while snow is soft and fluffy when it first falls, after a few temperature changes and having been groomed and skied on for hours/days, it transforms from snow crystals to ice crystals. Unless new snow falls on top, that's what you're gonna be skiing on, and you'll slide all over the place without sharp edges. Here is one of the best skiers in the world, on a race course set on a surface intentionally prepared to be solid ice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIHdHUg1FC4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIHdHUg1FC4
- swader999 2y ago
  Great clip. Courses are considered more fair the firmer it is. The track will stay more consistent for more of the field of racers if it is firm.

baggachipz 2y ago

> Luckily, fixing this kind of damage isn’t hard. I use a 3D printed jig with a 500 grit diamond stone. A couple of glides down the edge is enough to completely clear this up. I don't ski often enough to own my own skis, so I rent them. Having used those rentals in icy conditions, I've had a lousy time due to their shoddy edges. A tool like this would make my day(s) on the slopes so much better. Anybody know of a place I could buy something like this, so that I could bring the rentals into "serviceable" condition?

huskdigselv 2y ago
A rental should be able to sharpen them if you address it. (And at least here in Europe all rentals sharpen their skis frequently enough). A good tester is to see if the skis edge grips the surface of your finger nail, the same way you would test a knife or a sharp tool (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHEuV2CPE3w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHEuV2CPE3w). If it slides across it with no friction, then it's a blunt ski. Personally, I would advice against trying to tune skis manually, because you might just as easily blunt the edge as you might sharpen it if you don't have a good jig and tools. Through my 12 years of teaching skiing, I will say that more often than not people who complain about icy conditions are held back by their technique; are you skid steering or carving, because when you are skid steering no level of ski tuning can make your edges stay on hard snow. (Tip: This guy has made an incredible amount of videos about the topic and has even himself progressed from being a skid steering freestyle skier to now being an excellent carver. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwWFlltWQTU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwWFlltWQTU).
- baggachipz 2y ago
  A fair point; my technique is... slightly less than stellar. Especially when I hit ice, I tend to panic and try to slow down however possible. So I'll pay attention to sharpness next time I rent, but blaming the equipment is a favorite pastime of mine (read: golf).

deleted 2y ago

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devonsolomon 2y ago

Always good to see a ‘.co.za’ :)

MisterTea 2y ago

Sharp skis are necessary for good control otherwise you're just sliding around. Snow and Ice aren't the only things you ski over as there is a ton of dirt and other debris mixed in. Sometimes you get rocks and pebbles near trail edges. Heck, spring skiing will put you on trails with thin snow cover in addition to patches of grass and dirt that will destroy your skis (fun fact: hitting grass at speed is NOT fun - instant stop.) My father was also of the opinion that wax was a scam as he stated it would likely wear off in the first few runs. The idea was it filled in the scratches on the ski bottoms leaving a flatter surface. Maybe it works. maybe it doesn't. I always enjoyed watching the guys in the ski shops apply it by taking a slice of wax and then using a clothes iron, melt it like a pat of butter along the bottom.

swader999 2y ago
We could talk for pages about wax. Your father is partly right, it does wear off quickly, especially if you apply it correctly. I'd say wax is important in that it prevents the base from oxidizing. A dried out base is more difficult to turn and slower. Structure (small grooves in the base) will make you a second faster) Wearing a race suit vs a normal tight coat will make you two seconds faster. Proper setup edges vs no tune rounded edges will make you 5-6 seconds faster and with much lower chances of dsq. The type of wax is much less important. In a slalom race, choosing the best wax vs a less perfect type might only improve you by 0.02 seconds on a sixty second long race.
- MisterTea 2y ago
  I guess that was the issue, we were casual skiers who just enjoyed the runs so when they offered wax, it was of no use to us so may father refused. This was at the mountain ski shop so you know they pushed everything they could.

HarHarVeryFunny 2y ago

As a US east/ice coast skier, I can say yes, skis do get blunt, and it makes a big difference. If you need to grip on ice you need sharp edges.

Zigurd 2y ago

Sports and folk knowledge have long been companions. I just saw an article about some teams running 25mm tires on the new gravel stage at the Tour de France because "25mm is fast." It doesn't help that elite athletes can be very opinionated about what is best for their performance, and they are so talented, fit, and well-trained they can perform well on deficient equipment.

AtlasBarfed 2y ago
25 mm became Vogue and cycling because wind tunnel testing showed it was superior in aerodynamics combined with a new carbon clincher rims If I recall correctly
- Zigurd 2y ago
  My daily ride is an old race bike so 25mm is the widest that will fit between the chainstays. Also the widest that would not bulge out on old Mavic Ksyrium rims. If not for these questionable life choices I'd be on 30s. According to Continental, 28mm is the prevalent width for TDF teams.
  - AtlasBarfed 2y ago
    Oh right, I got confused, it might actually have been even bigger 28+mm on the TT bikes that was doing well in the wind tunnel testing. 25mm was the older "skinnier" size that was prevalent in the peloton, or even 23s or smaller. I think it also became apparent that rolling resistance was reduced on wider tires, so if an aerodynamic (and weight) formula could be made to make 28mm viable, it was better.

skiexperte 2y ago

Its a shitty article. Just looking at your skies and seeing an 'issue' doesn't tell you anything besides the fact that yes something had fun with that edge. Questions which are completly unanswered: How long does a sharp edge actually stay as it is? If it looks like this after 5 minutes, it doesn't matter. It also doesn't say if it was snow, ice or stones/ground killing that edge. And as far as i remember, he didn't say anything regarding the waxing.

trompetenaccoun 2y ago
>If you keep your skis dry between days out they’ll stay sharp for their entire lifetime. Don’t get him started on waxing. His specific claim was that skis get blunt from corrosion, and all you have to do is keep them dry. Stopped reading around there. He actually took a microscope to verify what should be common sense for anyone with a basic understanding of physics. And then didn't even do it properly like you point out. Is it only my perception or are people getting more gullible/stupid? It's something I notice more and more, someone says something obviously ridiculous but instead of dismissing it and filing the person under 'nutter', my feeling is more and more misinformation is taken serious or at least considered as potentially true. Or maybe it's an increasing lack of social skills? Maybe there's a decreasing understanding of the fact that the chance of running into a random guy telling tall tales, being misinformed or outright crazy is high when you're out somewhere with hundreds of people.

hoosieree 2y ago

As an amateur woodworker, this is not changing my belief that a $50 USB microscope is one of the most expensive things a hobbyist can buy.

paddy_m 2y ago

I'm in a ski share house in the northeast. Last winter I organized a ski tuning clinic put on by the local ski shop that does race tunes. I thought that only the expert nerdy skiers in the house would be interested, but everyone was fascinated. Most of the attendees won't tune their own skis, but they will know what to look for in their skis, and when to take them in. Also, in the north east, tuned skis absolutely matter, whatever level you are. My wife has been learning to ski and had trouble with ice. So I put on her beginner skis, and said, ahh no wonder, went back and tuned them. Then I put her on my slalom skis because she didn't trust her skis to initiate a turn (slalom skis are famously quick to initiate), and she could turn them quickly. Then I tuned one edge of each slalom ski with a more aggressive tune, but she could swap back to regular if she wanted. Finally, she was skidding her turns too much, so I put her on my GS skis, which forced her to patiently start the turn then follow it through. She now has a good idea of when she's having trouble with the ski shape, the conditions or the ski tune after 35 total days of skiing. If you put a beginner or intermediate on race skis, make sure the tune is mellow enough. Slalom skis at 0.5 and 86, will hunt when not turning, and can grab an edge throwing you to the ground. At the steeper angles (86/87 vs 88/89) it is much harder to skid the ski for speed control. When you head out with a beginner, you can always bring a diamond stone and detune the tip/tail, on the mountain even. They will notice the difference and appreciate it.