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MIT: Raising State Minimum Wages, Lowering Community College Enrollment

dangus 2y ago
In some ways community college is in a no man’s land between no experience necessary jobs and better career paths that require similar lengths of training. e.g., why study to be a paralegal when it’s a job with possibly worse pay and working conditions than many servers and bartenders enjoy?
- RetiredRichard 2y ago
  I mean we kinda expect community colleges to pick up those who are left behind and willing to learn
  - whartung 2y ago
    They’re a good place for folks to develop more academic discipline in that they tend to have a more rigid structure than university, more like a freer high school than the free for all of university.
    - Dr_Birdbrain 2y ago
      Interesting. In what way is the structure more rigid than university?
      - yareally 2y ago
        There's a few reasons: Smaller class sizes for general education courses so the teacher knows you better and so do your classmates. Leads to more accountability for completing course work as you can't just be a face in a 500 seat lecture pit. Many of the teachers coincidentally teach advanced high school courses and moonlight as adjunct professors, so that also contributes to the "high school feel".
      - saturn8601 2y ago
        American Universities are an institution where you are expected to act professional and complete coursework as per the guidelines. There is no one holding your hand to complete the coursework. Thats where you have a lack of rigidness. No one cares what you do once the semester begins. You can omit attending classes and accept the consequences of your actions. You are an independent adult and you are treated as such. Of course many schools offer numerous resources to get help in the coursework but the person must take the initiative to keep up if they are struggling. The schools are generally upholding a reputation (Especially for the Engineering university I went to) and with the declining standard of high schools, many college bound students are just not ready for the culture shock of a institution that expects a certain level of academic discipline and rigor and will not be kind to you if you do not meet it.(To be clear, at many schools you are still given opportunities to rectify the situation before they permanently close the door on you but it will still stain your record at that point). Community college is open enrollment, even if you completely fail all your courses and you have a record on your transcript, there is always an opportunity to come back and rectify the failures of the past. In fact the colleges are designed to allow anyone to continually try and improve themselves academically. This allows students to raise the level of standards needed for post high school academic work on their own terms and on their own timeline. One way they do this is create a structure where you are given more attention and the coursework is more "guided" to help you get to the finish line and build that discipline that you may not have gotten in high school. I'll give you an anecdote I got from the dean of the math department at my local community college which will help paint a picture of the situation(this was 15+ years ago so things may have changed). The college runs a super basic Algebra math class for people who didn't complete high school or are so far out of school that they need to start at the very basics. They go out of their way to accommodate the students as this course is typically the entry into a majority of all degrees (STEM or otherwise). To that end, they run multiple copies ("sections") of the course at all days of the week, at essentially any available time to accommodate any possible schedule. This involves hiring over a dozen instructors just for this one course but it is the mission of the school to educate as many people as possible so it makes sense. This is in addition to a dedicated tutoring center open to all students. Yet despite all of this, over half the class(I think it was 60%) failed or didn't make it to the end every semester. The community college makes it possible for students to get a second, third, fourth chance at success. As long as you are alive, it is never too late. Even at 60% failure rate, that still means 40% of students continue on. Given enough time the hope is that the majority of the population is on the path to achieving their dreams. At least thats the hope and the Community College does everything it can to help students get there.
  - mlindner 2y ago
    One of the main services offered by many community colleges is GED courses for people who dropped out of high school for one reason or another.
- yareally 2y ago
  Not everyone is going to a community college for just a 2 year degree. Many use it as a flexible, affordable solution for taking prerequisite courses required for a 4 year degree.
  - torstenvl 2y ago
    I hear this all the time, but does that work anywhere? Everywhere I've heard of, so many of the credits don't transfer that it ends up being a waste of time and money. But maybe I only hear about the cases where people have something to complain about, or the states I've lived in have crappy systems.
    - tibudiyanto 2y ago
      I went to diablo valley college and then transferred to berkeley. All credits are accounted for.
    - gedy 2y ago
      I did almost 2 years of CC in California before university, and I think every unit transferred. (I did go to CC specifically to transfer eventually, so I didn't take courses randomly)
    - analog31 2y ago
      From what I've heard, it works in Wisconsin. The state and community colleges have coordinated their curricula in order to make it work.
    - vips7L 2y ago
      I did 2 years at community in Pennsylvania and then the university I went to had an agreement with them to accept all the credits.
    - nostromo 2y ago
      In Washington State (Seattle) I was attending the UW and targeting Computer Science when I discovered I could transfer in some number of general ed courses (not pre-reqs) from in-state community colleges. It saved me a fair amount of money and I found the courses to be of similar quality to general ed courses at the university. (Which is to say, the courses were a mix of good and not good, just like I experienced at the university.) They had a big list of in-state transfers, where you could see which courses you could transfer in, and which you couldn't. Also, you could see if they satisfied any specific requirement. This anecdote is almost 20 years old at this point though, but I believe this is still possible to do.
- bsder 2y ago
  > e.g., why study to be a paralegal when it’s a job with possibly worse pay and working conditions than many servers and bartenders enjoy? Because a paralegal gets to work roughly 9-to-5, gets to sit on their ass instead of standing on their feet for 8+ hours, and probably only has to deal with the occasional coked up lawyer rather than drunk assholes every night? If you're a young, pretty female, you can probably make good money in one of those service jobs. If you're not young, not pretty, or not female, then you're probably WAY better off as a paralegal.
  - dangus 2y ago
    I speak from a little bit of experience as I once dated a paralegal. The job sucked. Zero opportunity for advancement. 100% soul-crushing busywork. It’s also in major danger of being automated away. When I go out to restaurants I see plenty of male and not-young bartenders and servers. And let’s not forget that this is a comparison of a job that requires high school education versus a job that requires extra training on top of that.
sitkack 2y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20230811042051/https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w31540/w31540.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20230811042051/https://www.nber....
nequo 2y ago
The current title of this submission is > MIT: Raising State Minimum Wages, Lowering Community College Enrollment The "MIT:" in the title is misleading. This is a published paper in a journal that has little to do with MIT. Neither the three authors of the paper nor most editors of the journal[1] are affiliated with it. [1] https://direct.mit.edu/rest/pages/editorial-info https://direct.mit.edu/rest/pages/editorial-info
- wasteduniverse 2y ago
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readyman 2y ago
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deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

In some ways community college is in a no man’s land between no experience necessary jobs and better career paths that require similar lengths of training. e.g., why study to be a paralegal when it’s a job with possibly worse pay and working conditions than many servers and bartenders enjoy?

RetiredRichard 2y ago
I mean we kinda expect community colleges to pick up those who are left behind and willing to learn
- whartung 2y ago
  They’re a good place for folks to develop more academic discipline in that they tend to have a more rigid structure than university, more like a freer high school than the free for all of university.
  - Dr_Birdbrain 2y ago
    Interesting. In what way is the structure more rigid than university?
    - yareally 2y ago
      There's a few reasons: Smaller class sizes for general education courses so the teacher knows you better and so do your classmates. Leads to more accountability for completing course work as you can't just be a face in a 500 seat lecture pit. Many of the teachers coincidentally teach advanced high school courses and moonlight as adjunct professors, so that also contributes to the "high school feel".
    - saturn8601 2y ago
      American Universities are an institution where you are expected to act professional and complete coursework as per the guidelines. There is no one holding your hand to complete the coursework. Thats where you have a lack of rigidness. No one cares what you do once the semester begins. You can omit attending classes and accept the consequences of your actions. You are an independent adult and you are treated as such. Of course many schools offer numerous resources to get help in the coursework but the person must take the initiative to keep up if they are struggling. The schools are generally upholding a reputation (Especially for the Engineering university I went to) and with the declining standard of high schools, many college bound students are just not ready for the culture shock of a institution that expects a certain level of academic discipline and rigor and will not be kind to you if you do not meet it.(To be clear, at many schools you are still given opportunities to rectify the situation before they permanently close the door on you but it will still stain your record at that point). Community college is open enrollment, even if you completely fail all your courses and you have a record on your transcript, there is always an opportunity to come back and rectify the failures of the past. In fact the colleges are designed to allow anyone to continually try and improve themselves academically. This allows students to raise the level of standards needed for post high school academic work on their own terms and on their own timeline. One way they do this is create a structure where you are given more attention and the coursework is more "guided" to help you get to the finish line and build that discipline that you may not have gotten in high school. I'll give you an anecdote I got from the dean of the math department at my local community college which will help paint a picture of the situation(this was 15+ years ago so things may have changed). The college runs a super basic Algebra math class for people who didn't complete high school or are so far out of school that they need to start at the very basics. They go out of their way to accommodate the students as this course is typically the entry into a majority of all degrees (STEM or otherwise). To that end, they run multiple copies ("sections") of the course at all days of the week, at essentially any available time to accommodate any possible schedule. This involves hiring over a dozen instructors just for this one course but it is the mission of the school to educate as many people as possible so it makes sense. This is in addition to a dedicated tutoring center open to all students. Yet despite all of this, over half the class(I think it was 60%) failed or didn't make it to the end every semester. The community college makes it possible for students to get a second, third, fourth chance at success. As long as you are alive, it is never too late. Even at 60% failure rate, that still means 40% of students continue on. Given enough time the hope is that the majority of the population is on the path to achieving their dreams. At least thats the hope and the Community College does everything it can to help students get there.
- mlindner 2y ago
  One of the main services offered by many community colleges is GED courses for people who dropped out of high school for one reason or another.
yareally 2y ago
Not everyone is going to a community college for just a 2 year degree. Many use it as a flexible, affordable solution for taking prerequisite courses required for a 4 year degree.
- torstenvl 2y ago
  I hear this all the time, but does that work anywhere? Everywhere I've heard of, so many of the credits don't transfer that it ends up being a waste of time and money. But maybe I only hear about the cases where people have something to complain about, or the states I've lived in have crappy systems.
  - tibudiyanto 2y ago
    I went to diablo valley college and then transferred to berkeley. All credits are accounted for.
  - gedy 2y ago
    I did almost 2 years of CC in California before university, and I think every unit transferred. (I did go to CC specifically to transfer eventually, so I didn't take courses randomly)
  - analog31 2y ago
    From what I've heard, it works in Wisconsin. The state and community colleges have coordinated their curricula in order to make it work.
  - vips7L 2y ago
    I did 2 years at community in Pennsylvania and then the university I went to had an agreement with them to accept all the credits.
  - nostromo 2y ago
    In Washington State (Seattle) I was attending the UW and targeting Computer Science when I discovered I could transfer in some number of general ed courses (not pre-reqs) from in-state community colleges. It saved me a fair amount of money and I found the courses to be of similar quality to general ed courses at the university. (Which is to say, the courses were a mix of good and not good, just like I experienced at the university.) They had a big list of in-state transfers, where you could see which courses you could transfer in, and which you couldn't. Also, you could see if they satisfied any specific requirement. This anecdote is almost 20 years old at this point though, but I believe this is still possible to do.
bsder 2y ago
> e.g., why study to be a paralegal when it’s a job with possibly worse pay and working conditions than many servers and bartenders enjoy? Because a paralegal gets to work roughly 9-to-5, gets to sit on their ass instead of standing on their feet for 8+ hours, and probably only has to deal with the occasional coked up lawyer rather than drunk assholes every night? If you're a young, pretty female, you can probably make good money in one of those service jobs. If you're not young, not pretty, or not female, then you're probably WAY better off as a paralegal.
- dangus 2y ago
  I speak from a little bit of experience as I once dated a paralegal. The job sucked. Zero opportunity for advancement. 100% soul-crushing busywork. It’s also in major danger of being automated away. When I go out to restaurants I see plenty of male and not-young bartenders and servers. And let’s not forget that this is a comparison of a job that requires high school education versus a job that requires extra training on top of that.

sitkack 2y ago

https://web.archive.org/web/20230811042051/https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w31540/w31540.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20230811042051/https://www.nber....

nequo 2y ago

The current title of this submission is > MIT: Raising State Minimum Wages, Lowering Community College Enrollment The "MIT:" in the title is misleading. This is a published paper in a journal that has little to do with MIT. Neither the three authors of the paper nor most editors of the journal[1] are affiliated with it. [1] https://direct.mit.edu/rest/pages/editorial-info https://direct.mit.edu/rest/pages/editorial-info

wasteduniverse 2y ago
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readyman 2y ago

[dead]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]