6 ms·

Governments really need to break the Visa and Mastercard Duopoly. Not mentioned in this article, but certainly related, was the Canadian governments unpreceden

by janice1999 2y ago

Governments really need to break the Visa and Mastercard Duopoly. Not mentioned in this article, but certainly related, was the Canadian governments unprecedented step to freeze hundreds of bank accounts of protestors during COVID protests using their Emergencies Act. While I couldn't be more politically removed from the protestors, using a legislative power envisioned for war like conditions to personally ruin protestors financially is more than worrying. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergencies_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergencies_Act

olalonde 2y ago
They just need to remove regulations. The reason there's a duopoly is that it's nearly impossible for a startup today to start a similar payment network.
- gaganyaan 2y ago
  What regulations, specifically?
  - olalonde 2y ago
    AML/KYC mostly.
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      Smaller companies are more than able to comply with AML/KYC.
      - olalonde 2y ago
        Complying is easy, doing it economically is another thing.
        viknesh 2y ago
        Sounds like a great opportunity for a startup to fix! In the country I live, there is a standard AML/KYC service that allows customers (banks, utilities) to easily perform ID verification in a few minutes.
      - agtech_andy 2y ago
        Yes. They just have to pay a few thousand per month to places that do it as a service.
    - threeseed 2y ago
      No. We shouldn't make it easer for criminals to conduct terrorism, human trafficking, fraud etc just to make it slightly more economical for startups to compete with Visa/Mastercard.
      - akira2501 2y ago
        When was the credit network used to finance terrorism? If we can't prevent terrorism then isn't it an advantage to have them move their funds on a network that can be completely traced and retroactively inspected? We'd prefer if terrorists use cash? Or we believe that if they can't use Amex it's impossible to use cash and therefore terrorism is defeated? Also, when the startups compete with Visa/Mastercard, they provide that service to small businesses. So really, it's to make it massively more economical and easy for humans to start businesses that take credit.
        rootusrootus 2y ago
        > isn't it an advantage to have them move their funds on a network that can be completely traced and retroactively inspected? Isn't that advantage precisely because of AML/KYC requirements on the networks?
        threeseed 2y ago
        > We'd prefer if terrorists use cash Yes. It is a million times easier to catch criminals trying to physically launder large volumes of cash than it is to track money flowing through multiple companies (on/off-shore, crypto, different owners, different jurisdictions etc). Why do you think AML/KYC is such a priority ?
        akira2501 2y ago
        > It is a million times easier to catch criminals trying to physically launder large volumes of cash Which is odd because all the arrests and cases I see published all catch the money laundering activity because it reached the banking system, not because an alert officer spotted large volumes of physical cash. > Why do you think AML/KYC is such a priority ? I honestly don't know. I can't see any evidence which suggested it needed to be made a priority generally. It looks like most of this fraud involves real estate.
- stanleydrew 2y ago
  This completely ignores the power of network effects. Even if all regulation were removed tomorrow I doubt the market would accommodate new entrants.
BarryMilo 2y ago
Break? It's practically enshrined in the law, seeing as any given bank can only have one credit card affiliated with it. So if I'm e.g. a normal National Bank client, I get to have a Visa card or no card at all. I suppose online banks could change things a bit, but without that, introducing a new credit card provider is practically impossible.
- sudosysgen 2y ago
  I don't think that's true. My bank (in Canada) offers both Visa and Mastercard, and I have both.
- radicality 2y ago
  > any given bank can only have one credit card affiliated with it. Is that true? Is that an actual law, or some anticompetitive terms&conditions from Visa and Mastercard? If anything feels like the law should ban this kind of anti competitive behavior.
  - err4nt 2y ago
    It doesn't appear to be true if you check websites of Canadian banks (e.g. CIBC, RBC, BMO, Scotia…) they all offer Visa and Mastercard, and Scotia even also offers Amex as well.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- throw0101b 2y ago
  > […] seeing as any given bank can only have one credit card affiliated with it. CIBC has both Visa and MasterCard: * https://www.cibc.com/en/personal-banking/credit-cards/costco-cards.html https://www.cibc.com/en/personal-banking/credit-cards/costco... As does RBC: * https://www.rbcroyalbank.com/credit-cards/travel/rbc-avion-visa-infinite.html https://www.rbcroyalbank.com/credit-cards/travel/rbc-avion-v... * https://www.rbcroyalbank.com/credit-cards/travel/westjet-rbc-world-elite-mastercard.html https://www.rbcroyalbank.com/credit-cards/travel/westjet-rbc... BMO: * https://www.bmo.com/main/personal/credit-cards/bmo-cashback-mastercard/ https://www.bmo.com/main/personal/credit-cards/bmo-cashback-... * https://www.bmo.com/en-ca/main/personal/credit-cards/bmo-eclipse-rise-visa/ https://www.bmo.com/en-ca/main/personal/credit-cards/bmo-ecl... Not sure where you got the idea, as simply visiting the websites would have show otherwise.
smnrchrds 2y ago
Canada's credit cards work on Visa, MasterCard, or Amex networks. However, debit cards work on a domestic network called Interac. About half of card transactions in Canada are debit card transactions. https://payments.ca/sites/default/files/PaymentsCanada_Canadian_Payment_Methods_and_Trends_Report_2022_En_0.pdf https://payments.ca/sites/default/files/PaymentsCanada_Canad... page 7 EDIT: In the past few years, many Canadian banks have started issuing dual-network debit cards that bear both Visa and Interac logos (sometimes MasterCard and Interac). These cards use the Interac network in Canada, but can also be used online and abroad using the second network. I just wanted to mention it for people who may be curious about the apparent shift in debit card networks.
- amaccuish 2y ago
  Sounds like a mirror of the Girocard here in Germany. My bank card now has both girocard and visa on it, and works online. Allegedly, Wero, coming from the banks of the EU, should in the next year or two, unite all the similar national systems across Europe in to one, I guess kind of like UnionPay.
  - Thlom 2y ago
    Same in Norway, we've always had BankAxxept and Visa on debit cards and most credit cards have been Mastercard. BankAxxpet handles the vast majority of transactions.
    - tomashm 2y ago
      "BankAxept is the first client to license Interac payment solutions internationally." (2016) https://www.interac.ca/en/content/news/interac-collaborates-with-norways-bankaxept/ https://www.interac.ca/en/content/news/interac-collaborates-...
- gary_0 2y ago
  The dual-network cards are Visa/Mastercard "debit" cards, which look like a credit card but sometimes don't work like one. I never had a problem with my dual-network card when physically visiting the States, but for whatever reason, some online payment systems (especially ones in Canada) have trouble with it. And vendors are clueless as to what the problem is when the debit CC number fails to go through. Just recently I tried to pay at a parking kiosk with my dual-network card, and it repeatedly failed with a generic error. So I had to use my credit card (which I only got for this kind of situation) instead. So often when trying to pay with a CC number, only a credit card will work. It's pretty dumb.
api 2y ago
We are sleepwalking toward an absolute totalitarian panopticon in the name of convenience. The cashless thing is just a tiny part. I had little to no sympathy with the protestors either but that definitely crossed a line, and do we really think that will only ever be used against those kinds of protestors. I’m sure it will happen at some point to indigenous people protesting an oil and gas project or something. It’s now a tool in the arsenal to crush protests.
cooljacob204 2y ago
The wiki article you linked specifically says it's for more then war like conditions. "take extraordinary temporary measures to respond to public welfare emergencies, public order emergencies..."
- ekanes 2y ago
  Totally fair. A better criticism of the government's choice might be whether or not the trucker protest constituted a legitimate emergency.
  - radford-neal 2y ago
    A court has ruled that it did not: https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/a-judge-ruled-trudeaus-use-of-the-emergencies-act-unconstitutional-so-what-happens-next https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/a-judge-ruled-trudeau...
    - throw0101b 2y ago
      And a public inquiry, which is mandated by the Act itself when it is invoked, said that it did: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Order_Emergency_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Order_Emergency_Commiss...
      - radford-neal 2y ago
        The court's ruling has actual legal effect. The inquiry's conclusion is, well, just somebody's opinion. One might also note that the invocation was never approved by parliament (it was terminated before the deadline for the Senate to vote on it).
  - eigenspace 2y ago
    [flagged]
AnotherGoodName 2y ago
It’s actually super easy to do but the public will hate it. Pass a law that credit card surcharges MUST be added onto the final price. That 2% cashback you get for using your Amex isn’t due to Amex generosity. That’s literally what retailers pay. Right now I will absolutely use my cc for anything I can. It’s literally cheaper than cash and users of cash subsidise all my purchases. The only way to fix this is to force the surcharges on the cc users so cash users aren’t subsidising the price. But good luck getting that passed as law. Everyone either doesn’t care or thinks they are getting an amazing deal from the 2% back. It’s got to the point where stores that add a cc surcharge will be called out on social media when all they are doing is preventing cash from subsidising credit cards.
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  That seems like it would get complicated fast. Doesn't cash have its own additional handling costs that don't apply to credit card users? I'm not sure it's as easy as saying cash users are subsidizing anyone else.
  - BJones12 2y ago
    For businesses to deposit cash at RBC (the largest Canadian bank) here's an account that charges $2.50 per $1,000 (branch), $2.25 per $1,000 (ATM) https://www.rbcroyalbank.com/business/accounts/flex-choice-business-account.html https://www.rbcroyalbank.com/business/accounts/flex-choice-b... Which is ~0.25%. Presumably a cash register also has some amortization on it.
    - nazcan 2y ago
      That does not include the cost of staff processing it.
      - miki123211 2y ago
        And the cost of staff pocketing some of it, and the cost times risk of it being stolen, and the psychological impact to employees of the store being worth robbing...
anttiharju 2y ago
You may be interested in reading about digital euro https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.ht... Although it's nothing concrete yet afaik
- rperez333 2y ago
  Most countries should study the Brazilian system called Pix. It's faster than Interac, controlled by the central bank and very accessible to its population. https://www.bcb.gov.br/en/financialstability/pix_en https://www.bcb.gov.br/en/financialstability/pix_en
- JSDevOps 2y ago
  Or the digital pound. https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/the-digital-pound https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/the-digital-pound
rexfarwell 2y ago
The MOU of the protestors was to overthrow the government. Seems like an appropriate response. https://archive.org/details/convoymou2022/page/3/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/convoymou2022/page/3/mode/2up
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  The MOU was no more an overthrow than people proposing any policy. IF protesters request the government set up a community oversight board for the police or build a playground, that wouldn't not be overthrow either. I have seen the MOU linked several times, but nobody has ever made a coherent argument how it constitutes treason, overthrow, or anything else of that nature. It is a simple list of demands from protesters, primarily that the government drop vaccine mandates and vaccine passports.
  - rexfarwell 2y ago
    The protestors wanted the "Federal Government" to enforce their versions of laws in the MOU or they were to resign, and were prepared to take over by force if the MOU was not signed or their demands were not met. They wanted to have their own January 6 moment, but in Canada this time.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      None of that is supported by the document you linked. It is just a list of demands. Is it a insurrection any time a protester makes a demand?

olalonde 2y ago

They just need to remove regulations. The reason there's a duopoly is that it's nearly impossible for a startup today to start a similar payment network.

gaganyaan 2y ago
What regulations, specifically?
- olalonde 2y ago
  AML/KYC mostly.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    Smaller companies are more than able to comply with AML/KYC.
    - olalonde 2y ago
      Complying is easy, doing it economically is another thing.
      - viknesh 2y ago
        Sounds like a great opportunity for a startup to fix! In the country I live, there is a standard AML/KYC service that allows customers (banks, utilities) to easily perform ID verification in a few minutes.
    - agtech_andy 2y ago
      Yes. They just have to pay a few thousand per month to places that do it as a service.
  - threeseed 2y ago
    No. We shouldn't make it easer for criminals to conduct terrorism, human trafficking, fraud etc just to make it slightly more economical for startups to compete with Visa/Mastercard.
    - akira2501 2y ago
      When was the credit network used to finance terrorism? If we can't prevent terrorism then isn't it an advantage to have them move their funds on a network that can be completely traced and retroactively inspected? We'd prefer if terrorists use cash? Or we believe that if they can't use Amex it's impossible to use cash and therefore terrorism is defeated? Also, when the startups compete with Visa/Mastercard, they provide that service to small businesses. So really, it's to make it massively more economical and easy for humans to start businesses that take credit.
      - rootusrootus 2y ago
        > isn't it an advantage to have them move their funds on a network that can be completely traced and retroactively inspected? Isn't that advantage precisely because of AML/KYC requirements on the networks?
      - threeseed 2y ago
        > We'd prefer if terrorists use cash Yes. It is a million times easier to catch criminals trying to physically launder large volumes of cash than it is to track money flowing through multiple companies (on/off-shore, crypto, different owners, different jurisdictions etc). Why do you think AML/KYC is such a priority ?
        akira2501 2y ago
        > It is a million times easier to catch criminals trying to physically launder large volumes of cash Which is odd because all the arrests and cases I see published all catch the money laundering activity because it reached the banking system, not because an alert officer spotted large volumes of physical cash. > Why do you think AML/KYC is such a priority ? I honestly don't know. I can't see any evidence which suggested it needed to be made a priority generally. It looks like most of this fraud involves real estate.
stanleydrew 2y ago
This completely ignores the power of network effects. Even if all regulation were removed tomorrow I doubt the market would accommodate new entrants.

BarryMilo 2y ago

Break? It's practically enshrined in the law, seeing as any given bank can only have one credit card affiliated with it. So if I'm e.g. a normal National Bank client, I get to have a Visa card or no card at all. I suppose online banks could change things a bit, but without that, introducing a new credit card provider is practically impossible.

sudosysgen 2y ago
I don't think that's true. My bank (in Canada) offers both Visa and Mastercard, and I have both.
radicality 2y ago
> any given bank can only have one credit card affiliated with it. Is that true? Is that an actual law, or some anticompetitive terms&conditions from Visa and Mastercard? If anything feels like the law should ban this kind of anti competitive behavior.
- err4nt 2y ago
  It doesn't appear to be true if you check websites of Canadian banks (e.g. CIBC, RBC, BMO, Scotia…) they all offer Visa and Mastercard, and Scotia even also offers Amex as well.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
throw0101b 2y ago
> […] seeing as any given bank can only have one credit card affiliated with it. CIBC has both Visa and MasterCard: * https://www.cibc.com/en/personal-banking/credit-cards/costco-cards.html https://www.cibc.com/en/personal-banking/credit-cards/costco... As does RBC: * https://www.rbcroyalbank.com/credit-cards/travel/rbc-avion-visa-infinite.html https://www.rbcroyalbank.com/credit-cards/travel/rbc-avion-v... * https://www.rbcroyalbank.com/credit-cards/travel/westjet-rbc-world-elite-mastercard.html https://www.rbcroyalbank.com/credit-cards/travel/westjet-rbc... BMO: * https://www.bmo.com/main/personal/credit-cards/bmo-cashback-mastercard/ https://www.bmo.com/main/personal/credit-cards/bmo-cashback-... * https://www.bmo.com/en-ca/main/personal/credit-cards/bmo-eclipse-rise-visa/ https://www.bmo.com/en-ca/main/personal/credit-cards/bmo-ecl... Not sure where you got the idea, as simply visiting the websites would have show otherwise.

smnrchrds 2y ago

Canada's credit cards work on Visa, MasterCard, or Amex networks. However, debit cards work on a domestic network called Interac. About half of card transactions in Canada are debit card transactions. https://payments.ca/sites/default/files/PaymentsCanada_Canadian_Payment_Methods_and_Trends_Report_2022_En_0.pdf https://payments.ca/sites/default/files/PaymentsCanada_Canad... page 7 EDIT: In the past few years, many Canadian banks have started issuing dual-network debit cards that bear both Visa and Interac logos (sometimes MasterCard and Interac). These cards use the Interac network in Canada, but can also be used online and abroad using the second network. I just wanted to mention it for people who may be curious about the apparent shift in debit card networks.

amaccuish 2y ago
Sounds like a mirror of the Girocard here in Germany. My bank card now has both girocard and visa on it, and works online. Allegedly, Wero, coming from the banks of the EU, should in the next year or two, unite all the similar national systems across Europe in to one, I guess kind of like UnionPay.
- Thlom 2y ago
  Same in Norway, we've always had BankAxxept and Visa on debit cards and most credit cards have been Mastercard. BankAxxpet handles the vast majority of transactions.
  - tomashm 2y ago
    "BankAxept is the first client to license Interac payment solutions internationally." (2016) https://www.interac.ca/en/content/news/interac-collaborates-with-norways-bankaxept/ https://www.interac.ca/en/content/news/interac-collaborates-...
gary_0 2y ago
The dual-network cards are Visa/Mastercard "debit" cards, which look like a credit card but sometimes don't work like one. I never had a problem with my dual-network card when physically visiting the States, but for whatever reason, some online payment systems (especially ones in Canada) have trouble with it. And vendors are clueless as to what the problem is when the debit CC number fails to go through. Just recently I tried to pay at a parking kiosk with my dual-network card, and it repeatedly failed with a generic error. So I had to use my credit card (which I only got for this kind of situation) instead. So often when trying to pay with a CC number, only a credit card will work. It's pretty dumb.

api 2y ago

We are sleepwalking toward an absolute totalitarian panopticon in the name of convenience. The cashless thing is just a tiny part. I had little to no sympathy with the protestors either but that definitely crossed a line, and do we really think that will only ever be used against those kinds of protestors. I’m sure it will happen at some point to indigenous people protesting an oil and gas project or something. It’s now a tool in the arsenal to crush protests.

cooljacob204 2y ago

The wiki article you linked specifically says it's for more then war like conditions. "take extraordinary temporary measures to respond to public welfare emergencies, public order emergencies..."

ekanes 2y ago
Totally fair. A better criticism of the government's choice might be whether or not the trucker protest constituted a legitimate emergency.
- radford-neal 2y ago
  A court has ruled that it did not: https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/a-judge-ruled-trudeaus-use-of-the-emergencies-act-unconstitutional-so-what-happens-next https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/a-judge-ruled-trudeau...
  - throw0101b 2y ago
    And a public inquiry, which is mandated by the Act itself when it is invoked, said that it did: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Order_Emergency_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Order_Emergency_Commiss...
    - radford-neal 2y ago
      The court's ruling has actual legal effect. The inquiry's conclusion is, well, just somebody's opinion. One might also note that the invocation was never approved by parliament (it was terminated before the deadline for the Senate to vote on it).
- eigenspace 2y ago
  [flagged]

AnotherGoodName 2y ago

It’s actually super easy to do but the public will hate it. Pass a law that credit card surcharges MUST be added onto the final price. That 2% cashback you get for using your Amex isn’t due to Amex generosity. That’s literally what retailers pay. Right now I will absolutely use my cc for anything I can. It’s literally cheaper than cash and users of cash subsidise all my purchases. The only way to fix this is to force the surcharges on the cc users so cash users aren’t subsidising the price. But good luck getting that passed as law. Everyone either doesn’t care or thinks they are getting an amazing deal from the 2% back. It’s got to the point where stores that add a cc surcharge will be called out on social media when all they are doing is preventing cash from subsidising credit cards.

rootusrootus 2y ago
That seems like it would get complicated fast. Doesn't cash have its own additional handling costs that don't apply to credit card users? I'm not sure it's as easy as saying cash users are subsidizing anyone else.
- BJones12 2y ago
  For businesses to deposit cash at RBC (the largest Canadian bank) here's an account that charges $2.50 per $1,000 (branch), $2.25 per $1,000 (ATM) https://www.rbcroyalbank.com/business/accounts/flex-choice-business-account.html https://www.rbcroyalbank.com/business/accounts/flex-choice-b... Which is ~0.25%. Presumably a cash register also has some amortization on it.
  - nazcan 2y ago
    That does not include the cost of staff processing it.
    - miki123211 2y ago
      And the cost of staff pocketing some of it, and the cost times risk of it being stolen, and the psychological impact to employees of the store being worth robbing...

anttiharju 2y ago

You may be interested in reading about digital euro https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.ht... Although it's nothing concrete yet afaik

rperez333 2y ago
Most countries should study the Brazilian system called Pix. It's faster than Interac, controlled by the central bank and very accessible to its population. https://www.bcb.gov.br/en/financialstability/pix_en https://www.bcb.gov.br/en/financialstability/pix_en
JSDevOps 2y ago
Or the digital pound. https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/the-digital-pound https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/the-digital-pound

rexfarwell 2y ago

The MOU of the protestors was to overthrow the government. Seems like an appropriate response. https://archive.org/details/convoymou2022/page/3/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/convoymou2022/page/3/mode/2up

s1artibartfast 2y ago
The MOU was no more an overthrow than people proposing any policy. IF protesters request the government set up a community oversight board for the police or build a playground, that wouldn't not be overthrow either. I have seen the MOU linked several times, but nobody has ever made a coherent argument how it constitutes treason, overthrow, or anything else of that nature. It is a simple list of demands from protesters, primarily that the government drop vaccine mandates and vaccine passports.
- rexfarwell 2y ago
  The protestors wanted the "Federal Government" to enforce their versions of laws in the MOU or they were to resign, and were prepared to take over by force if the MOU was not signed or their demands were not met. They wanted to have their own January 6 moment, but in Canada this time.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    None of that is supported by the document you linked. It is just a list of demands. Is it a insurrection any time a protester makes a demand?