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Caffeine is a very interesting drug that makes capitalism and just daily work bearable. It's interesting that this went all the way to 1800s for the US. After

• arbuge 2y ago
  > Maybe you just slept badly. Coffee fixes all of those. It doesn't fix sleeping badly for me anymore, at all. Perhaps it used to when I was younger, but after turning around 45, I increasingly found that the only fix for a poor night's sleep is a good night's sleep. or perhaps poor nights of sleep just didn't affect me much back then.
• slibhb 2y ago
  > Caffeine is a very interesting drug that makes capitalism and just daily work bearable. It's interesting that this went all the way to 1800s for the US. Michael Pollan's thesis is absurdly exaggerated. I've been on and off coffee for the past few years and it's not necessary to "make daily work bearable". His link between caffeine and capitalism is just silly.
  • leobg 2y ago
    Laborers in Somalia chew khat Soldiers crave their cigarettes. Office workers need their cup of coffee. You can, of course, say it’s just human nature to enjoy an altered state of consciousness. but when it becomes a habit like that, it’s really hard not to see it as a symptom of the slave mentality. The little window of freedom that you have in your otherwise unfree life. Makes me think of billboards advertising cigarettes to taxi drivers. Trying to associate the break for a smoke with the feeling of freedom. Or television commercials for coffee. Suggesting you can have a stressful day, but never run out of energy because you “enjoy the aroma“. When I feel under pressure and have deadlines coming up, I definitely drink a lot more coffee. I do it because I feel like I cannot afford to take a nap. I pull that lever to make myself function. If my kids did that, I wouldn’t consider it healthy. Not saying Pollan is right. But I wouldn’t call it a completely absurd point of view either.
• WalterBright 2y ago
  > Caffeine is a very interesting drug that makes capitalism and just daily work bearable. What is it about socialist work that makes it bearable?
  • cryptonector 2y ago
    Not OP but I think it must be the fear of the gulag.
    • 1oooqooq 2y ago
      read a book, internet friend. whatever you're trying to signal went out of fashion in the 50s
  • 1oooqooq 2y ago
    "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"
    • nickpp 2y ago
      We actually hated that while living under communism. It meant there was never hope for better, no better future on the horizon. All while those judging “your needs” kept the lion share for themselves and their apparatchik friends.
      • 1oooqooq 2y ago
        under dictatorship all things are equal
        • nickpp 2y ago
          Some are always more equal than others
• taeric 2y ago
  The more I read anecdotes like this, the more im convinced there is not a homogenous response. For me, too much caffeine can be a thing. But I can stop coffee fairly consequence free. I stick with it as I do like the taste, but the world moving heavily to arabica coffee may get me to stop. Not at all a fan of it. To my point, I'm growing convinced we will someday find something like blood types for how it impacts you. Probably closer to the cilantro effect. But, same general ideas. Maybe even closer to catnip for cats?
  • xanderlewis 2y ago
    I don’t think I’ve ever noticed any effect from coffee. And I drink two to three cups a day of quite strong (light roast, so much of the caffeine has been preserved) coffee because I like the taste and enjoy the ritual. If I miss it for a day, I don’t notice anything.
    • taeric 2y ago
      I also suspect ritual makes up far more response for things than folks ack.
    • taeric 2y ago
      I feel like a bit of a fool for not remembering this page has citations: https://www.23andme.com/topics/wellness/caffeine-consumption/ https://www.23andme.com/topics/wellness/caffeine-consumption... Will try and take a dive on some of those in the coming days.
• zeta0134 2y ago
  I went on a similar caffeine experimentation journey, and eventually settled on one (1) cup of coffee in the morning, followed by usually plain water for the rest of the day. I appreciate the boost to "get a task started" willpower that the caffeine provides, and by limiting my intake, it's mostly flushed out of my system by the time I'm ready to sleep. For my body, this balance seems to work well: I sleep deeply, dream vividly, and am occasionally woken by nightmares. (always wasps.) Usual stuff. Ideally I'd avoid caffeine entirely, but when I tried to sustain this (for over a year) I felt lethargic and fatigued more often than not. From a willpower perspective, it was far too easy to go, "I'm too tired to start this task right now, I'll put it off." Some of that is mental, I realize, but the quick fix won. I have stuff to do and I don't want to spend months in misery trying to force a major lifestyle change when the coffee is right there. What I *cannot* do anymore is drink caffeine (in any form) all day long, like I used to when I was younger. I have no idea how I slept at all. I'm partly convinced I mostly did not, and in hindsight it explains a lot of weird sleep consistency issues I was constantly struggling with.
  • Nathanba 2y ago
    Same journey for me, sadly I don't think drinking coffee consistently is the perfect answer. No matter what amount I drink it either becomes too little (because I adapt) or too much (Far worse sleep, somewhat depressive, can't work out or jog anymore because of heart fluttering, only truly feel good for ~4-5h per day, then worse all day). I think the only theoretical way to consistently get value out of coffee is to drink it during the work week and then force myself to withdraw on the weekend so my body always has a fresh response to it. The reason why I don't like this either is because I obviously lose two entire days of my life to feeling pretty bad per week and you still eventually start drinking more because it's inevitable. Now what I remember seeing over the years is that whenever somebody would mention that they don't drink coffee and that person is still a high performer then they always seemed to be really into fitness and sports. Maybe this is the only way, using physical exercise as a stimulant instead of coffee.
    • mirsadm 2y ago
      Caffeine is great for working out. I have a coffee before running or lifting weights. It's also usually included into lots fitness oriented supplements.
• nradov 2y ago
  A lot of people such as Mormons manage to bear capitalism just fine without caffeine. I like to have a little coffee most days but let's not exaggerate it's necessity.
  • varnaud 2y ago
    My Mormon friend in college was an avid consumer of Monster Zero.
  • haltingproblem 2y ago
    Underrated comment. Perhaps Mormons have in their belief system a strong motivating stimulant? I am trying to avoid use of the word drug here as it is pejorative. Perhaps, Coffee is just what we need to overcome the ennui and pointless of modern existence and a set of religious (or cultural) beliefs helps us do the same. This would also imply that Caffeine consumption is lower in societies that are religious and have strong belief systems - religious or cultural, which can be tested!
    • nradov 2y ago
      Existence is no more pointless in the modern (or postmodern) era than at any previous time. Some people need to get over themselves with this "ennui" nonsense.
    • rayiner 2y ago
      I agree with Razib Khan, who calls organized religion a form of “social technology.”
    • Arn_Thor 2y ago
      I’d venture that Mormons (and SDAs, with which I’m more familiar) have more close knit (Caucasian) communities for generations that support each other and have elevated their collective socioeconomic status. So perhaps they’re less likely to be bottom-level corporate drones, code moneys or Amazon warehouse workers.
  • stevenwoo 2y ago
    Marx wrote this just prior to the Civil War. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.
• bdjsiqoocwk 2y ago
  I was 100% caffeine free for a year and a half while keeping a demanding full time job. That eventually ended when COVID lockdowns started (it's unclear even to me what the relationship between the two was; maybe my subconscious used it as an inspector excuse to go back) Caffeine doesn't seem to affect my sleep until I get to absurd amounts like 10 cups in a day, which some times it does happen. Currently I love the drug and intend to keep using it.
• systems_glitch 2y ago
  I think this is really understated. After developing a facial twitch and realizing I was consuming more than 1000 mg of caffeine a day, I switched to decaf once the particular project was over. No one told me it's physically addictive and has withdrawal symptoms! It's the only thing that would keep me functional and able to drive on with a project though.
  • swaginator 2y ago
    > It's the only thing that would keep me functional and able to drive on with a project though. Don't you think that part of this could be stress? Also potentially dehydration. I have had eye twitches a couple times during long road trips where I drank Red Bull or Monster to keep focused, and was not drinking enough water. But I have never had twitching from caffeine under normal circumstances, since I usually drink 2 parts water for every part caffeinated drink (lots of bathroom breaks).
    • systems_glitch 2y ago
      Probably not, I drink a lot of water, especially during hot weather -- I walk to work and back twice a day no matter the weather.
  • samatman 2y ago
    For what it's worth, I've found that muscular twitches are always a symptom of magnesium deficiency, which caffeine does exacerbate. Since I adore coffee and don't intend to stop drinking it, I supplement with magnesium drops in the water I drink large amounts of all day. This has completely prevented tics and twitches, and greatly reduces jaw tension as well.
  • brightball 2y ago
    My wife and I switched to decaf about 6 months ago and we are pretty happy with it. Generally sleeping better and I can have 2-3 cups throughout my morning without going off the rails.
    • 2y ago
• ProjectArcturis 2y ago
  I did this too. After I got through the withdrawal, I basically found myself sitting at my desk and waiting to die.
  • twojobsoneboss 2y ago
    Like, cause of tiredness, or not being able to focus, or sheer boredom? Which one, or something else?
    • ProjectArcturis 2y ago
      Nothing seemed very important. I had no motivation to work on anything. I was also in grad school at the time, which certainly contributed.
• moomoo11 2y ago
  I stopped caffeine. It sucked for a week, and I’d taken a week off because I knew it would be hell. And it was. But after a week I felt free. I barely consume caffeine anymore, like if I’m with friends at a cafe or something. Otherwise I don’t make tea or coffee at home unless I have guests who want some. Some results I’ve noticed is that I literally don’t give a shit anymore about any pressures. I’ll just #dealwithit and it’s fine. I also sleep way better and I am able to utilize the full waking day (I wake up at 6am and I sleep at 10pm). One thing that’s strange is that it seems caffeine no longer has much effect like it used to in the rare occasion I’ll have a coffee. I’m able to sleep just fine and I feel no burst of energy or anything. Just a warm drink so maybe it warms me up a bit when it’s cool. Idk. 10/10 would recommend quitting caffeine. My mind is way clearer (no brain fog from being groggy) and it runs like a diesel engine just pulls like a mfer all day.
  • dieselgate 2y ago
    Great analogy being like a diesel engine, keep it up
• nunez 2y ago
  I did the same back in December...while I was undergoing sleep compression during my CBT for insomnia treatment. Withdrawal on hard mode! What motivated me to do so was trying a single origin decaf that my local roaster had available and realizing that, yes, decaf coffee can taste like regular coffee! I literally decided to stop drinking caffeinated coffee after that first cup. Things were rough for about a month but all good after that. The nice thing about drinking decaf every day is that caffeine _really_ works when I do choose to use it. Super helpful while driving long distances.
  • anonymouskimmer 2y ago
    > The nice thing about drinking decaf every day is that caffeine _really_ works when I do choose to use it. And how.
  • jorvi 2y ago
    Decaffeinated coffee’s main problem isn’t that it tastes bad, it’s that it goes stale incredibly quickly. You’ll have to consume a steady amount of coffee each day if you want to finish your supply on time. Or purchase only small amounts.
    • _DeadFred_ 2y ago
      I thought the main problem was that it's made with the same chemicals used to do dry cleaning.
      • gruez 2y ago
        That's one way of making it, but it's by no means the only way. Also, the reason why it tastes bad isn't because it's "same chemicals used to do dry cleaning", it's that the decaffination process changes the physical structure of the beans, making it easier to stale. source for both claims: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYTSdlOdkn0& https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYTSdlOdkn0&, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IszQ2JR3Olc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IszQ2JR3Olc
• Arn_Thor 2y ago
  For me it’s not that clear cut. Caffeine is a motivating booster each day but if I stick to my rhythm, one in the morning and one at lunch, then it doesn’t affect my sleep at all. It’s only when I’m pressured to go beyond that I suffer
  • crotho 2y ago
    [dead]
  • srid 2y ago
    > For me it’s not that clear cut. Caffeine is a motivating booster each day but if I stick to my rhythm, one in the morning and one at lunch, then it doesn’t affect my sleep at all. Same with me. > It’s only when I’m pressured to go beyond that I suffer What I discovered was that If I gradually increase my consumption, then it doesn't cause any issues. There was a point where I'd drink my 4 or 5th cup of coffee very close to bed time and still get a good night of sleep. But the key was to gradually build up to that point. I drink 2 or 3 cups now (mainly because I can no longer consume coffee after large meals, and OMAD at night is no longer sustainable).
  • hesdeadjim 2y ago
    Exactly my experience. I have a big cup of cold brew in the morning and nothing the rest of the day. When my head hits the pillow at night I’m out and sleep without any interruption. There was a point a long time ago where I wasn’t under control, and in an effort to rein it in I quit for two months. It was awful. I struggled to concentrate and felt no real benefit from being “clean”. I decided to set limits and started up again. That blast of caffeine in the morning is all it takes to set my brain on the right path the rest of the day. My theory is that people who end up struggling with caffeine, do so because they equate more caffeine with being even more productive. If you treat it like you would a (enjoyable) medicine, you can have the best of all worlds.
    • woleium 2y ago
      I did the same, but then transitioned to 10 mins of vigorous exercise instead in the morning. I found that getting my heart rate up was a better stimulus
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• srid 2y ago
  Since it has now become fashionable to give up on coffee, it would be refreshing to hear anecdotes from "the other side" as well -- people who drink plenty of coffee, throughout the day, but do not suffer from significant negative side-effects (i.e., they continue to get good sleep, have low stress, etc.)
  • lc9er 2y ago
    I’ve quit caffeine for 3-4 months. Aside from a rough few days from quitting cold-turkey, there was zero discernible difference in my day to day life. I enjoy black coffee, and the drawbacks, compared to say, soda or alcohol consumption are minimal, so I started drinking it again because I missed it. And most decaf is too gross to drink black so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • denton-scratch 2y ago
    I don't drink a lot of the stuff, but I haven't quit. I used to drink about a litre of brewed coffee a day, starting at 7AM and going on until 5PM. Eventually that fell away, without any decision on my part, and I now drink one mug a day (1/2 imperial pint), after getting up. It doesn't seem to power me up or make me more alert; I think it actually makes me dozy, 2-3 hours after my morning joe. That is, I think I only notice the crash.
  • swaginator 2y ago
    The parent comment's experience does not reflect my relationship with coffee at all. I was diagnosed with ADHD as a kid, never medicated for it. Just regulated with diet and exercise, also probably self-medicated with caffeine and nicotine in college. Quit nicotine because of the very obvious health problems that come with it, I found it very easy to quit interestingly enough (thank God I quit before the Zyndemic). But I have never felt that coffee comes with any negative side effects for me other than anxiety. It doesn't affect my sleep unless I drink it past 5 PM, and I've never felt like it "wakes me up", it just lets me enter a hyperfocus state a lot more easily. Other people describe their relationship with coffee that they wake up and feel groggy, so they take coffee to have a baseline. For me it has never been about waking up, it's just something that helps with focus. I do get the jitters when drinking coffee especially since I eat my first meal very late in the day (12pm), so I switched to mate cocido, which is just mate in tea bags. The effect of even very strongly-brewed mate is far less pronounced than the effect of coffee, and I would even go so far as to say that whatever benefits I think I am getting from mate is probably just placebo. For reference during college I probably consumed 3-4 cups of coffee a day, then as I started working I would consume 5-6 cups a day, black. Now I stop drinking coffee after I eat at noon, so I am down to 2-3 cups a day. Also I think that brewing methods matter. Hot-brewed coffee causes less jitters and more focus. Cold-brewed coffee tastes better but it is easy to overshoot what feels like a "therapeutic dose" and actually end up making it harder to focus, as well as more jitters. It might be that I usually have hot coffee black, and I have cold brew with a bit of milk and simple syrup. The sugar or coldness might also make me colder or do something with my blood sugar, not sure.
• crazygringo 2y ago
  > Coffee fixes all of those. The thing is, it only does for a few days. At least for me. Then the coffee isn't helping at all -- it's just keeping you at the same baseline you previously were at with coffee. I used to drink coffee all the time at just a constant level. Then I just got tired of feeling "dependent" on something and weaned off over a couple of weeks. Which was fine when you don't do it cold turkey -- just a little less energy each day but easily manageable. Now I still drink coffee sometimes but I use it as a temporary performance tool. I'll "start up again" on any particular day where I have a ton of meetings, where I didn't get enough sleep, where I have to do a lot of physical stuff, etc. Often this might be several days in a row, where I increase my coffee each day a little more relative to the previous day for the same effect. But then as soon as the demands stop, I immediately taper off to zero again, usually taking 2-5 days to do so. Not really because I "don't want to be dependent", but because I want to make sure I can get the full effect of coffee again the next time I need it, whether that's in a week or a month or three months. It's kind of weird that I'm always fully aware of exactly how much I'm "dosing" myself with coffee. I'm almost always either "tapering up", "tapering down", or just off of it completely. But it's very effective as a tool that way. Way more effective than when I just drank the same amount every day, which I discovered was no different from not drinking any at all (after tapering off).
  • fhub 2y ago
    I stop consuming caffeine 2 days before a holiday and preemptively take acetaminophen for a day to prevent any headaches. Then no caffeine on the holiday. I sleep more, relax more and just generally more chilled. I sometimes try to stay off it a bit after the holiday but that rarely lasts long.
    • crazygringo 2y ago
      Just a question -- are you entirely sure your acetaminophen pill doesn't also contain caffeine? Just since that's an extremely common combination, and I wasn't aware of acetaminophen on its own being able to counter the effects of a caffeine-withdrawal headache. I'm fascinated if this actually works.