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This deal reminded me the deal that Microsoft invested into Apple in 1997. Rivian has been struggling a lot recently (similar to Apple that time) and now they a
by mertbio 2y ago
This deal reminded me the deal that Microsoft invested into Apple in 1997. Rivian has been struggling a lot recently (similar to Apple that time) and now they are going to have enough money to become the Apple of EVs while Tesla becoming the Android.
- nox101 2y agoWill Tesla become the Android, vs say BYD? It's starting to feel more like Tesla will be the Nokia/Blackberry of cars.
- msoad 2y agoAmericans do not comprehend how advanced BYD and others are in EV. It's no accident that their government is fighting the import of Chinese cars
- PaulWaldman 2y agoI understand the cost to the end user is much less, but in what ways is their technology more advanced?
- nox101 2y agoCars that change in 10 minutes? https://ev.com/news/byd-and-catl-set-to-introduce-ev-batteries-capable-of-full-charge-in-10-minutes&blogId=3193 https://ev.com/news/byd-and-catl-set-to-introduce-ev-batteri...
- HeatrayEnjoyer 2y agoHow would that even be supplied? Megawatt circuits are the domain of industrial factories, not "gas" stations.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> How would that even be supplied? Capacitors.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- andruby 2y agoThe article states that it would need 650KW to charge at 6C rates. Huawei has already announced 600 kW DC fast chargers: https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Electric-cars-in-China/China-s-Huawei-launches-alliance-for-ultrafast-EV-charging https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Electric-cars-in-China/Chi...
- HeatrayEnjoyer 2y agoThe bottleneck is the grid not terminal hardware. If a home or small business asks for a multiple MW circuit they're going to be laughed at for preposterousness. Laying harmless gigabit fiber to a new area requires permits, construction, labor, think of what becomes necessary when it's enough electrons to kill a dinosaur.
- cyberax 2y agoThe UI is _miles_ ahead. And they are preparing to release a 1000 km (620 mile) range vehicle.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> in what ways is their technology more advanced? BYD's technology, not so much--they're better at manufacturing cars in degrees compared to Tesla, not an order of magnitude. The magic is at CATL and friends. There is a Cambrian explosion of battery technology in China that doesn't get reported super well in the mainstream press.
- HeatrayEnjoyer 2y agoWhat's going on with battery technology?
- mensetmanusman 2y agoMostly cost reductions, there isn’t much room in the physics for higher energy density. Eg it will always be less than chemical energy density.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> What's going on with battery technology? Iron [1] and now sodium [2]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_batte... [2] https://www.electrive.com/2023/11/20/byd-huaihai-move-on-plans-for-sodium-ion-battery-plant/ https://www.electrive.com/2023/11/20/byd-huaihai-move-on-pla...
- defrost 2y agoAdding to the other peer reasons, staggering range of design styles and price points; executive class, cheap fun young cars, utility vehicles, etc.
- richardw 2y agoJust one example: https://www.drive.com.au/news/byd-to-introduce-new-second-gen-1000km-battery-technology/ https://www.drive.com.au/news/byd-to-introduce-new-second-ge... They’re doing a lot of licensing to western companies.
- bpodgursky 2y agoTesla is competitive (sales are not dominant, but OK, in China) but the other US automakers are truly f***.
- mensetmanusman 2y agoIt actually has more to do with war and realpolitik.
- wazoox 2y agoTesla once looked futuristic, but now they're sorely lacking : automatic windscreen wipers still don't work properly (they work perfectly well on my 2005 Ford Focus, thank you), they now lack basic ergonomic features such as a turn signal lever, their "self driving" feature is horribly lagging behind most other makers (constant phantom braking still a recurring problem after years and years, no proper automatic overtaking, inferior speed control and speed limit enforcement, etc).
- ripjaygn 2y ago> their "self driving" feature is horribly lagging behind most other makers (constant phantom braking still a recurring problem after years and years, no proper automatic overtaking, inferior speed control and speed limit enforcement, etc) Who are these makers that allegedly outclass Autopilot/FSD?
- blacksmith_tb 2y agoHaven't ridden in one, but I think Mercedes' Drive Pilot is supposed to be a contender: https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/27/23892154/mercedes-benz-drive-pilot-autonomous-level-3-test https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/27/23892154/mercedes-benz-dr...
- ripjaygn 2y agoDrive Pilot just follows the car in front and has several limitations, it doesn't even have overtaking, so I would be surprised since the parent poster says lack of automatic overtaking is a limitation. Drive Pilot: Works only when behind another car, it just follows that car Cannot change lanes Works only under 40MPH Works only in daylight, does not work at night Does not work in rain Works only in traffic jams and heavy traffic Works only on a few pre-approved roads How is the world is FSD "severely lagging behind" this tech when FSD has none of these limitations? Something weird about how the Mercedes tech is hyped up in message forums.
- blacksmith_tb 2y ago
- ripjaygn 2y agoSo far the story has been Tesla being the Apple of EVs(pioneer, small number of premium models, lots of mindshare), BYD being the Samsung(cheaper copy of Tesla), and GM/Ford etc. being the Nokia/Blackberry(legacy volume manufacturers that did not pivot to the new thing in time).
- ralfd 2y agoTesla is at least profitable, while Rivian is losing $30000 with every sold car.
- unshavedyak 2y agoWas. The Gen 2's have a very different internal cost. In theory it's much better, but i don't know if it's been said how much.
- dralley 2y agoThere's also the fact that VW is far behind the competion in electric vehicles and is staring down the barrel of Chinese EVs. A technology sharing agreement is part of this deal, so VW can leverage that to catch up with their own products. Rivian focuses on a different segment of the market from most cars sold by VW Group (trucks, SUVs, the American market in general) so from Rivian's perspective they're not likely to be cannibalized.
- thesumofall 2y agoI don’t think there is much evidence that they are far behind their competition in anything but sales. Efficiency of their latest models is good, software has improved a lot, and they are starting to return to their previous (good enough) quality levels. I think we are quickly approaching the full commoditization of EVs. At similar price points you get the same thing across all manufacturers. Maybe a bit more quality here, some additional software gimmicks over there, and the rest is just marketing, local patriotism, and branding. Add to that a sprinkle of varying regional adaptation
- dralley 2y agoI think the whole vehicle industry is looking at a slightly milder version of the "Kodak problem". That is, the money is oriented towards the service aspects of the industry. Kodak wasn't a camera company, they were a chemical company. Cameras and lenses were a loss-leader for selling film and the equipment and chemicals used to develop it. You can't just swap the products and make a little less money, it changes the entire business model. Likewise a lot of these car companies make money on the long chain of maintenance as much as or moreso than the cars themselves. Electric cars come with a whole new business model. And the core competencies that are required are much different. Less precision machining and more electrical engineering
- magnuspaaske 2y agoI think this is right. I don't have a car but I rent cars periodically and pick based on the UX more than the "tech" features. Most EVs are fast enough and have enough range that it doesn't really make a difference to the driving experience but the UX and all the screens do make a difference. I like the Audi E-tron because I can mostly ignore or turn off the center screen and have everything important in front of me behind the wheel. The center screen on the Polestar 2 is a bit more pronounced but can be muted when switching to the music screen. Teslas and VW EVs have way to much happening in the center screen so I avoid those. It's sad to see Volvo go down the same path but a correction should be in order. Anyways, all the tech is commoditised so you need something else to differentiate yourself. For me that's not a big center display to show how "tech forward" you are, as it ends up suggesting you're anything but.
- PaulWaldman 2y agoWhat is the context where Rivian is Apple and Tesla is Android in this analogy?
- jeffhwang 2y agoThe similarities and differences with the 1997 MS-Apple deal are interesting. Arguably, the $150m that Microsoft invested was less significant than: (1) the vote of confidence to customers, 3rd-party developers, and investors that Apple would survive; (2) the commitment by Microsoft to continue developing/supporting MS Office and IE at a time when Apple did not have iWork equivalents or a browser like Safari yet. Re: (2), even if there were alternatives like ClarisWorks being able to open and share MS Office documents was critical to keeping the Mac alive at that time. Plus, the web was one of the things that helped Apple survive the platform wars (i.e., proprietary document formats, two-sided markets, etc.). And whatever its imperfections, Internet Explorer was becoming the standard as Netscape lost share and this was before Mozilla, Firefox, Safari, or Chrome. the Mac needed a first-class browser and Microsoft committed to providing one for 5 years. In contrast, while the cash, additional market for EV software, and vote of confidence is no doubt very valuable to Rivian, it would be an even more valuable if VW could provide some distribution or other advantages to get Rivian out of it's current hole.
- cyberax 2y agoTesla is Apple. They both have an asshole CEO who thinks that forcing users to adapt to his vision is the best path forward. They make incomprehensibly bad decisions (butterfly keyboard and stalk removal). They both are control freaks, etc. Rivian is also Apple, but it just doesn't have any clout.
- mint2 2y agoMusk’s whims are far worse than Job’s. Cybertruck, gull wing doors, X, S3XY, etc - musk is like a 13 year old middle schooler combined with Apple.
- constantcrying 2y agoSo what does VW get out of it? Anything specific from Rivian that they couldn't get otherwise?
- rasz 2y agoMicrosoft didnt "invest into Apple". Jobs forced Gates to settle multiple lawsuits (including outright stealing code and shipping it in Windows as their own) that if not settled would have killed MS a year later when DOJ pounced https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor.... https://www.theregister.com/1998/10/29/microsoft_paid_apple_150m/ https://www.theregister.com/1998/10/29/microsoft_paid_apple_... TLDR: Microsoft was stealing with help of Intel, both companies scared by QuickTime positioning Apple as the leader in Multimedia (1991 Adobe Premiere build by ex Quicktime engineer on Mac platform, 1991 Avid ported from Apollo $workstations$ to Mac). When Jobs came back in 1996 he didnt like (or couldnt afford) all the litigation and promptly settled for $ and Microsoft support commitment (Office, IE) in exchange for letting MS save face. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Canyon_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Canyon_Company "David Boies, attorney for the DoJ, noted that John Warden, for Microsoft, had omitted to quote part of a handwritten note by Fred Anderson, Apple's CFO, in which Anderson wrote that "the [QuickTime] patent dispute was resolved with cross-licence and significant payment to Apple." The payment was $150 million." "Microsoft and Intel had been shocked to find that Apple's QuickTime product made digital video on Windows seem like continuous motion, and was far in advance of anything that either of them had, even in a planning stage. The speed was achieved by bypassing Windows' Graphics Display Interface and enabling the application to write directly to the video card. The result was a significant improvement over the choppy, 'slide-show' quality of Microsoft's own efforts. Apple's intention was to establish the driver as a standard for multimedia video imaging, so that Mac developers could sell their applications on the Windows and Mac platforms. Microsoft requested a free licence from Apple for QuickTime for Windows in June 1993, and was refused. In July 1993, the San Francisco Canyon Company entered into an agreement with Intel to deliver a program (codenamed Mario) that would enable Intel to accelerate Video for Windows' processing of video images." "Intel gave this code to Microsoft as part of a joint development program called Display Control Interface." "Canyon admitted that it had copied to Intel code developed for and assigned to Apple. In September 1994, Apple's software was distributed by Microsoft in its developer kits, and in Microsoft's Video for Windows version 1.1d." https://web.archive.org/web/20091006022255/http://www.firingsquad.com/features/alexstjohn/ https://web.archive.org/web/20091006022255/http://www.firing... "FS: What was Microsoft's philosophy or attitude regarding games when you began? Alex St John: Oh, it was completely nonexistent! During that time, their entire focus was on multimedia video, the primary mission of DirectX wasn't to benefit and push gaming, but simply to drive Apple and Quicktime into the ground."