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Renewables with grid scale storage are not a moonshot. It exists today in many places around the world, and has for years. Nuclear takes way too long and is too

Renewables with grid scale storage are not a moonshot. It exists today in many places around the world, and has for years. Nuclear takes way too long and is too expensive. Wind and solar with storage are faster, cheaper and safer.

arnaudsm 2y ago
Which places? Can you find a region with >10M people without hydro storage that reached <50 g CO2/kWh? https://app.electricitymaps.com https://app.electricitymaps.com France is the only one, has been 70% nuke for decades, and has competitive electrity prices
- lispm 2y ago
  > and has competitive electrity prices By passing the true costs to the tax payer and the next generations.
  - AshamedCaptain 2y ago
    Is there a european country that doesn't do that?
    - lispm 2y ago
      Guess why Germany has high electricity costs? The energy consumer pays quite a bit more for the transition to renewable energy, not the tax payer.
      - Herz 2y ago
        Guess why Germany is in recession? https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/bessere-standortfaktoren-im-ausland-deindustrialisierung-deutschlands-kaum-noch-aufzuhalten-11850461.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/bessere-standortfakto... https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/sweden-rejects-power-interconnector-to-germany-where-market-doesn-t-function-efficiently/2-1-1663366 https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/sweden-reject...
        lispm 2y ago
        why is the French debt rising fast? https://www.euronews.com/business/2023/10/03/3-trillion-is-frances-debt-out-of-control https://www.euronews.com/business/2023/10/03/3-trillion-is-f... While the Government rises subsidies to keep electricity bills down? https://www.lemonde.fr/en/energies/article/2023/04/21/france-to-continue-subsidizing-electricity-bills-until-2025_6023740_98.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/energies/article/2023/04/21/france... "Increases in electricity bills have been less sharp in France thanks to government subsidies, at 4% in 2022 and 15% this year – at a projected cost of €45 billion in 2023."
        Herz 2y ago
        You mention Germany, not me. Don't add random topics if you are not able to discuss the topic you've chosen. Industries are leaving Germany because of the electricity bills you tried to defend. Nearby countries don't want to connect to Germany because of unstable electricity bills that can affect citizens (Sweeden). Stay on topic.
        lispm 2y ago
        > Nearby countries don't want to connect to Germany because of unstable electricity bills that can affect citizens (Sweeden). What are "unstable electricity bills" ? Changing market prices are the reality in many markets. The European reality is clear: more connection between local energy markets creates a larger EU market and this allows to trade electricity based on demand and supply in a very large market. Germany already exchanges electricity with Sweden via Denmark. Do you have other examples? Germany directly exchanges electricity with lots of other countries already. Renewable energy from Wind and Solar is growing in many places in Europe. That's not a special German thing, it's just that Germany started earlier. EU: https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/topics/in-depth/renewable-energy?activeTab=fa515f0c-9ab0-493c-b4cd-58a32dfaae0a https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/topics/in-depth/renewable-energ... "EU Member States need to massively ramp up their renewable power capacity in the coming years. This increase in renewables from variable sources, such as wind and solar, will also increase the need for ‘flexibility’ in the EU electricity system." "The share of renewables in Europe is expected to keep growing. However, meeting the new target of 42.5% for 2030 will demand more than doubling the rates of renewables deployment seen over the past decade, and requires a deep transformation of the European energy system." A graph of the EU development is here: https://flo.uri.sh/visualisation/16410231/embed?auto=1 https://flo.uri.sh/visualisation/16410231/embed?auto=1 Compare with Germany: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/paragraph_text_image/public/paragraphs/images/fig2a-gross-power-production-germany-1990-2023-source.png?itok=S9C2Bbkt https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/p... What you think is a German problem, is a reality and a trend in Europe. A deep transition to renewable energy is also world-wide the only viable way to a cleaner electricity production. Sweden could be in a good position, since it and surrounding countries have lots of capacity for wind generated electricity and hydro based electricity generation/storage.
  - pyrale 2y ago
    These conspiracy theories are really annoying. There is no "hidden true cost", lifecycle cost analysis has been done including research and public financing. The data is public, everyone can check it.
    - lispm 2y ago
      https://www.ft.com/content/175d212b-0a93-48f5-b68c-2a58bd098796 https://www.ft.com/content/175d212b-0a93-48f5-b68c-2a58bd098... That's why EDF wants money from the british tax payer for the construction of nuclear power plant? EDF also wants higher electricity prices, the French government doesn't: https://www.ft.com/content/eaee5a3d-ba76-40ba-8300-082f586574e8 https://www.ft.com/content/eaee5a3d-ba76-40ba-8300-082f58657... " In particular, a looming overhaul of the way nuclear power prices are regulated in France has created fractures as EDF seeks higher prices to bring in much-needed capital, while the state wants to contain energy costs for households and businesses as much as possible, the people added. “For Rémont, electricity prices need to be sufficiently high so that the group can invest, and the government needs to have prices that are acceptable to consumers,” another person said. At its core, the debate around EDF is an existential one — whether its executives can and should run the group as a normal company despite it being state-owned. "
      - pyrale 2y ago
        Sorry, I'm really not interested in a debate built on selective quotes and paywalled articles. As I said, the cost analysis is public. It was even translated [1]. If you're interested in reading a 432-page long cost analysis, have fun. [1]: https://www.ccomptes.fr/sites/default/files/EzPublish/thematic_public_report_costs_nuclear_%20power_sector_012012.pdf https://www.ccomptes.fr/sites/default/files/EzPublish/themat...
        lispm 2y ago
        sorry, that's 12 years old and long outdated. newer analysis has been much different. In the meantime, most of the french nuclear industry has been taken over by the government to prevent its financial collapse. For example this article from 2022 paints a much worse picture on why EDF can't increase prices to cover the costs: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/why-french-plan-take-full-control-edf-is-no-cure-all-2022-07-07/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/why-french-plan-take...
nine_k 2y ago
Can you please give us a few examples of grid-scale storage installations that are not hydroelectric?
- kieranmaine 2y ago
  The California Independent System Operator (CAISO) has a large amount of battery storage providing electricity during the evening peak. See https://www.gridstatus.io/live/caiso?date=2024-06-23 https://www.gridstatus.io/live/caiso?date=2024-06-23 The amount of storage is set to increase substantially this year. "Developers plan to add 6,813 MW of battery power storage capacity in CAISO's domain this year, dominated by four-hour lithium-ion resources, roughly double their additions in 2023" https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/outlook-2024-caiso-battery-boom-continues-with-over-6-gw-planned-in-2024-81009345 https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights...
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    Storage has enabled California to almost flatten its infamous duck curve: https://cleantechnica.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/California-Natural-gas-generation-graph.png https://cleantechnica.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Califor...
    - pyrale 2y ago
      I mean, 2023 is the worst year in your graph, 2024 data is as of April, when peakload happened in summer every of the last 25 years [1]. There is some interesting data about CAISO batteries, but this graph is not it. [1]:https://www.caiso.com/documents/californiaisopeakloadhistory.pdf https://www.caiso.com/documents/californiaisopeakloadhistory...
      - kieranmaine 2y ago
        The blog post it is from provides a more complete picture. https://blog.gridstatus.io/caiso-batteries-apr-2024/ https://blog.gridstatus.io/caiso-batteries-apr-2024/ My understanding of the graphs is they show April for each year.
exe34 2y ago
I've been hearing that nuclear takes way too long all my life. I'm 37. we could have built two or three generations of them by now.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

arnaudsm 2y ago

Which places? Can you find a region with >10M people without hydro storage that reached <50 g CO2/kWh? https://app.electricitymaps.com https://app.electricitymaps.com France is the only one, has been 70% nuke for decades, and has competitive electrity prices

lispm 2y ago
> and has competitive electrity prices By passing the true costs to the tax payer and the next generations.
- AshamedCaptain 2y ago
  Is there a european country that doesn't do that?
  - lispm 2y ago
    Guess why Germany has high electricity costs? The energy consumer pays quite a bit more for the transition to renewable energy, not the tax payer.
    - Herz 2y ago
      Guess why Germany is in recession? https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/bessere-standortfaktoren-im-ausland-deindustrialisierung-deutschlands-kaum-noch-aufzuhalten-11850461.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/bessere-standortfakto... https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/sweden-rejects-power-interconnector-to-germany-where-market-doesn-t-function-efficiently/2-1-1663366 https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/sweden-reject...
      - lispm 2y ago
        why is the French debt rising fast? https://www.euronews.com/business/2023/10/03/3-trillion-is-frances-debt-out-of-control https://www.euronews.com/business/2023/10/03/3-trillion-is-f... While the Government rises subsidies to keep electricity bills down? https://www.lemonde.fr/en/energies/article/2023/04/21/france-to-continue-subsidizing-electricity-bills-until-2025_6023740_98.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/energies/article/2023/04/21/france... "Increases in electricity bills have been less sharp in France thanks to government subsidies, at 4% in 2022 and 15% this year – at a projected cost of €45 billion in 2023."
        Herz 2y ago
        You mention Germany, not me. Don't add random topics if you are not able to discuss the topic you've chosen. Industries are leaving Germany because of the electricity bills you tried to defend. Nearby countries don't want to connect to Germany because of unstable electricity bills that can affect citizens (Sweeden). Stay on topic.
        lispm 2y ago
        > Nearby countries don't want to connect to Germany because of unstable electricity bills that can affect citizens (Sweeden). What are "unstable electricity bills" ? Changing market prices are the reality in many markets. The European reality is clear: more connection between local energy markets creates a larger EU market and this allows to trade electricity based on demand and supply in a very large market. Germany already exchanges electricity with Sweden via Denmark. Do you have other examples? Germany directly exchanges electricity with lots of other countries already. Renewable energy from Wind and Solar is growing in many places in Europe. That's not a special German thing, it's just that Germany started earlier. EU: https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/topics/in-depth/renewable-energy?activeTab=fa515f0c-9ab0-493c-b4cd-58a32dfaae0a https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/topics/in-depth/renewable-energ... "EU Member States need to massively ramp up their renewable power capacity in the coming years. This increase in renewables from variable sources, such as wind and solar, will also increase the need for ‘flexibility’ in the EU electricity system." "The share of renewables in Europe is expected to keep growing. However, meeting the new target of 42.5% for 2030 will demand more than doubling the rates of renewables deployment seen over the past decade, and requires a deep transformation of the European energy system." A graph of the EU development is here: https://flo.uri.sh/visualisation/16410231/embed?auto=1 https://flo.uri.sh/visualisation/16410231/embed?auto=1 Compare with Germany: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/paragraph_text_image/public/paragraphs/images/fig2a-gross-power-production-germany-1990-2023-source.png?itok=S9C2Bbkt https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/p... What you think is a German problem, is a reality and a trend in Europe. A deep transition to renewable energy is also world-wide the only viable way to a cleaner electricity production. Sweden could be in a good position, since it and surrounding countries have lots of capacity for wind generated electricity and hydro based electricity generation/storage.
- pyrale 2y ago
  These conspiracy theories are really annoying. There is no "hidden true cost", lifecycle cost analysis has been done including research and public financing. The data is public, everyone can check it.
  - lispm 2y ago
    https://www.ft.com/content/175d212b-0a93-48f5-b68c-2a58bd098796 https://www.ft.com/content/175d212b-0a93-48f5-b68c-2a58bd098... That's why EDF wants money from the british tax payer for the construction of nuclear power plant? EDF also wants higher electricity prices, the French government doesn't: https://www.ft.com/content/eaee5a3d-ba76-40ba-8300-082f586574e8 https://www.ft.com/content/eaee5a3d-ba76-40ba-8300-082f58657... " In particular, a looming overhaul of the way nuclear power prices are regulated in France has created fractures as EDF seeks higher prices to bring in much-needed capital, while the state wants to contain energy costs for households and businesses as much as possible, the people added. “For Rémont, electricity prices need to be sufficiently high so that the group can invest, and the government needs to have prices that are acceptable to consumers,” another person said. At its core, the debate around EDF is an existential one — whether its executives can and should run the group as a normal company despite it being state-owned. "
    - pyrale 2y ago
      Sorry, I'm really not interested in a debate built on selective quotes and paywalled articles. As I said, the cost analysis is public. It was even translated [1]. If you're interested in reading a 432-page long cost analysis, have fun. [1]: https://www.ccomptes.fr/sites/default/files/EzPublish/thematic_public_report_costs_nuclear_%20power_sector_012012.pdf https://www.ccomptes.fr/sites/default/files/EzPublish/themat...
      - lispm 2y ago
        sorry, that's 12 years old and long outdated. newer analysis has been much different. In the meantime, most of the french nuclear industry has been taken over by the government to prevent its financial collapse. For example this article from 2022 paints a much worse picture on why EDF can't increase prices to cover the costs: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/why-french-plan-take-full-control-edf-is-no-cure-all-2022-07-07/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/why-french-plan-take...

nine_k 2y ago

Can you please give us a few examples of grid-scale storage installations that are not hydroelectric?

kieranmaine 2y ago
The California Independent System Operator (CAISO) has a large amount of battery storage providing electricity during the evening peak. See https://www.gridstatus.io/live/caiso?date=2024-06-23 https://www.gridstatus.io/live/caiso?date=2024-06-23 The amount of storage is set to increase substantially this year. "Developers plan to add 6,813 MW of battery power storage capacity in CAISO's domain this year, dominated by four-hour lithium-ion resources, roughly double their additions in 2023" https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/outlook-2024-caiso-battery-boom-continues-with-over-6-gw-planned-in-2024-81009345 https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights...
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  Storage has enabled California to almost flatten its infamous duck curve: https://cleantechnica.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/California-Natural-gas-generation-graph.png https://cleantechnica.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Califor...
  - pyrale 2y ago
    I mean, 2023 is the worst year in your graph, 2024 data is as of April, when peakload happened in summer every of the last 25 years [1]. There is some interesting data about CAISO batteries, but this graph is not it. [1]:https://www.caiso.com/documents/californiaisopeakloadhistory.pdf https://www.caiso.com/documents/californiaisopeakloadhistory...
    - kieranmaine 2y ago
      The blog post it is from provides a more complete picture. https://blog.gridstatus.io/caiso-batteries-apr-2024/ https://blog.gridstatus.io/caiso-batteries-apr-2024/ My understanding of the graphs is they show April for each year.

exe34 2y ago

I've been hearing that nuclear takes way too long all my life. I'm 37. we could have built two or three generations of them by now.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]