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This seems like an odd take. Micro LED would be a huge boon to TVs, they’ve wanted to get there for a while. And just because Apple isn’t using it doesn’t mean

by MBCook 2y ago

This seems like an odd take. Micro LED would be a huge boon to TVs, they’ve wanted to get there for a while. And just because Apple isn’t using it doesn’t mean other device manufacturers wouldn’t. Sure you don’t get the large funding that Apple can give. But killed? The article even says they spent $3 billion on it. So they funded it quite a bit.

cubefox 2y ago
A marginal improvement in image quality isn't necessarily enough to offset a much higher panel price, in a way that creates a market for these panels. Compare, for example, Intel's "Optane" phase change memory. It was qualitatively superior to NAND flash, but also significantly more expensive, which kept interest low and ultimately led to phase change memory being abandoned.
- londons_explore 2y ago
  MicroLED isn't theoretically more expensive - in fact, the extended lifespan, more brightness, and lower energy consumption would all be selling points which, for various customers, would lead to being willing to pay more for a product which costs the same or less to make.
  - cubefox 2y ago
    No, it is actually more expensive to make, as the article states. TVs are currently sold for more than 100.000 USD: https://www.engadget.com/a-110000-microled-tv-in-this-economy-144340352.html https://www.engadget.com/a-110000-microled-tv-in-this-econom... And the technology isn't particularly new either, which means the high cost is not a minor technical problem.
  - MBCook 2y ago
    Exactly. Blacks of OLED, brightness of LED, no burn in, no degradation over time… it would be fantastic. It’s what’s being used in some insane (~140”) TVs but at a reasonable size. Yeah it won’t compete with LCDs on price for a while, maybe ever. But the high end of the market would love it.
    - Hamuko 2y ago
      >no burn in, no degradation over time How? Don't Micro-LED displays have individual backlights for each pixel?
      - vel0city 2y ago
        Micro-LED displays don't have "backlights" like regular LCD displays. They're just arrays of LEDs. Each pixel element is made up of LEDs. Like OLEDs or Plasma displays, the dots themselves are the light source instead of a film trying to filter a backlight.
      - Tuna-Fish 2y ago
        Inorganic leds that are not pushed too far outside their comfort zone do not meaningfully degrade over time. The problem with them is that you cannot make the three different colors needed in a single material, so unlike oled you need to physically produce three separate kinds of components, and then transfer 25 million individual components onto a substrate to manufacture a 4k display. This will never be cheap.
        toast0 2y ago
        > The problem with them is that you cannot make the three different colors needed in a single material, If that's the problem, why not just make 3x white leds per pixel and have a layer of color filters, like LCDs have. Or at least make the leds in vertical stripes, so you're not assembling 25 million components onto a substrate, but instead 4k*3 components (each assembled from 2k components, I suppose).
        MBCook 2y ago
        I think I might’ve heard of someone trying to do that, where all the LEDs are the same and they use quantum dots on top two emit the color that they want. Maybe that’s how it’ll work. Honestly an LCD with one LED backlight per pixel would still be really nice.
        londons_explore 2y ago
jelly 2y ago
OLED already works very well for TVs and other big screens; MicroLED would need to push into that market and prove its value against OLED. And OLED tech will not stand still while MicroLED catches up. MicroLED needs market niches with lots of manufacturing volume to scale up and improve or they'll never get to a position where they can challenge OLED.
- carterschonwald 2y ago
  Maybe automotive display panels? I’m assuming that microled would have similar dynamic range to oled but less screen aging? Automotive stuff needs to be incredibly durable!
  - nick238 2y ago
    Automotive displays you'll be viewing from <1 m, so the dot pitch needs to be higher than a TV, but at the same time it's not usually as demanding graphically, so chunkier pixels OK? MicroLEDs are a long ways away from being used for smartphones due to pitch.
- MBCook 2y ago
  OLED are fantastic, I have one. But they just can’t get as bright and I’m not sure you’re ever going to solve the degradation issue. You’re right the technology won’t stand still, but will it be able to match what MicroLED can do with at same price? Apple just used an amazing OLED on the new iPad Pros. But they had to stack two panels to do that and obviously it’s not TV sized. Maybe something like that could compete with MicroLED better but the price is really going to be up there. Plus you don’t have to start with TV sized things. I remember OLED starting in small display applications like front panel displays for some electronics. I’d imagine production MicroOED would be similar. One of the issues Apple has is that they use extremely high-quality displays with VERY tiny pixels. You can’t just make the Apple Watch display significantly worse, people will notice. But there are tons of consumer electronics out there they don’t need such high resolution displays. Things where it could be a good option early on.
  - 2y ago
pier25 2y ago
For tvs there's not much of an advantage over OLED. Burn in is not much of an issue these days and for most people OLED tvs are bright enough. Makes more sense for monitors than tvs IMO.
- MBCook 2y ago
  LCDs get way brighter than OLEDs, thats an issue. And OLEDs often do thing a to avoid burn in like dim static scenes that can be a problem when watching movies. There is an advantage.

by MBCook 2y ago

cubefox 2y ago

A marginal improvement in image quality isn't necessarily enough to offset a much higher panel price, in a way that creates a market for these panels. Compare, for example, Intel's "Optane" phase change memory. It was qualitatively superior to NAND flash, but also significantly more expensive, which kept interest low and ultimately led to phase change memory being abandoned.

londons_explore 2y ago
MicroLED isn't theoretically more expensive - in fact, the extended lifespan, more brightness, and lower energy consumption would all be selling points which, for various customers, would lead to being willing to pay more for a product which costs the same or less to make.
- cubefox 2y ago
  No, it is actually more expensive to make, as the article states. TVs are currently sold for more than 100.000 USD: https://www.engadget.com/a-110000-microled-tv-in-this-economy-144340352.html https://www.engadget.com/a-110000-microled-tv-in-this-econom... And the technology isn't particularly new either, which means the high cost is not a minor technical problem.
- MBCook 2y ago
  Exactly. Blacks of OLED, brightness of LED, no burn in, no degradation over time… it would be fantastic. It’s what’s being used in some insane (~140”) TVs but at a reasonable size. Yeah it won’t compete with LCDs on price for a while, maybe ever. But the high end of the market would love it.
  - Hamuko 2y ago
    >no burn in, no degradation over time How? Don't Micro-LED displays have individual backlights for each pixel?
    - vel0city 2y ago
      Micro-LED displays don't have "backlights" like regular LCD displays. They're just arrays of LEDs. Each pixel element is made up of LEDs. Like OLEDs or Plasma displays, the dots themselves are the light source instead of a film trying to filter a backlight.
    - Tuna-Fish 2y ago
      Inorganic leds that are not pushed too far outside their comfort zone do not meaningfully degrade over time. The problem with them is that you cannot make the three different colors needed in a single material, so unlike oled you need to physically produce three separate kinds of components, and then transfer 25 million individual components onto a substrate to manufacture a 4k display. This will never be cheap.
      - toast0 2y ago
        > The problem with them is that you cannot make the three different colors needed in a single material, If that's the problem, why not just make 3x white leds per pixel and have a layer of color filters, like LCDs have. Or at least make the leds in vertical stripes, so you're not assembling 25 million components onto a substrate, but instead 4k*3 components (each assembled from 2k components, I suppose).
        MBCook 2y ago
        I think I might’ve heard of someone trying to do that, where all the LEDs are the same and they use quantum dots on top two emit the color that they want. Maybe that’s how it’ll work. Honestly an LCD with one LED backlight per pixel would still be really nice.
      - londons_explore 2y ago

jelly 2y ago

OLED already works very well for TVs and other big screens; MicroLED would need to push into that market and prove its value against OLED. And OLED tech will not stand still while MicroLED catches up. MicroLED needs market niches with lots of manufacturing volume to scale up and improve or they'll never get to a position where they can challenge OLED.

carterschonwald 2y ago
Maybe automotive display panels? I’m assuming that microled would have similar dynamic range to oled but less screen aging? Automotive stuff needs to be incredibly durable!
- nick238 2y ago
  Automotive displays you'll be viewing from <1 m, so the dot pitch needs to be higher than a TV, but at the same time it's not usually as demanding graphically, so chunkier pixels OK? MicroLEDs are a long ways away from being used for smartphones due to pitch.
MBCook 2y ago
OLED are fantastic, I have one. But they just can’t get as bright and I’m not sure you’re ever going to solve the degradation issue. You’re right the technology won’t stand still, but will it be able to match what MicroLED can do with at same price? Apple just used an amazing OLED on the new iPad Pros. But they had to stack two panels to do that and obviously it’s not TV sized. Maybe something like that could compete with MicroLED better but the price is really going to be up there. Plus you don’t have to start with TV sized things. I remember OLED starting in small display applications like front panel displays for some electronics. I’d imagine production MicroOED would be similar. One of the issues Apple has is that they use extremely high-quality displays with VERY tiny pixels. You can’t just make the Apple Watch display significantly worse, people will notice. But there are tons of consumer electronics out there they don’t need such high resolution displays. Things where it could be a good option early on.
- 2y ago

pier25 2y ago

For tvs there's not much of an advantage over OLED. Burn in is not much of an issue these days and for most people OLED tvs are bright enough. Makes more sense for monitors than tvs IMO.

MBCook 2y ago
LCDs get way brighter than OLEDs, thats an issue. And OLEDs often do thing a to avoid burn in like dim static scenes that can be a problem when watching movies. There is an advantage.