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The mental hoops drivers go through to justify their unsafe behaviour...

by Mawr 2y ago

Dylan16807 2y ago
Oh please. Let's assume people are going at a speed that the road is designed to handle, since that's usually the case. In that situation, the behavior you're calling out as unsafe is simply "going faster". Now, in a technical sense that's true, but it's always true. Going faster reduces safety when you're above the speed limit. Going faster reduces safety when you're at the speed limit. Going faster reduces safety when you're below the speed limit. If you reduce safety to black and white, then you should always go slower, until you're barely moving. If the speed limit is 40, that doesn't magically make it safe to go 40. Black and white thinking leads to a bad conclusion, so let's add nuance back in. Speed is dangerous but roads are designed to let you go a certain speed while minimizing the danger. You're not being dangerous until you go over that speed. And that speed is almost always higher than the speed limit, especially in good weather. Going over the speed limit is not itself a problem. It's going over the design speed of the road that's a problem.
- vkou 2y ago
  > Let's assume people are going at a speed that the road is designed to handle Let's not, because most of the speeding I see is from people who very mistakenly think they know what speed the road's designed to handle, because they don't give a crap about pedestrians, bicyclists, visibility, other vehicles, or really, anything but getting to the next red light faster. Perhaps you drive in a utopia that's solely populated by traffic architects, but here in the real world, it's populated by normal people, many of whom are bad drivers, and bad judges of road safety, but are really good at hitting the gas. Our high death rates reflect this.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    > Perhaps you drive in a utopia that's solely populated by traffic architects I drive in an area that has a lot of overbuilt roads, and I don't think that's a very uncommon situation. > they don't give a crap about pedestrians, bicyclists, visibility, other vehicles, or really, anything but getting to the next red light faster That's very dangerous even if you strictly follow the speed limit. It's a separate problem.
  - katbyte 2y ago
    Overbuilt roads aka “strodes”are real common in North America and as people tend to drive the speed they feel is correct not the limit it leads people to going faster and create unsafe situation. There’s a great not just bikes video on this iirc A sign doesn’t really change behaviour but narrowing roads , separated bike lanes, pedestrian controlled crossings, roundabouts, and generally making the road “feel slower” does
    - vkou 2y ago
      I'm aware of this phenomenon. My point is that until the road is narrowed, the safe speed on it may be lower than the average backseat traffic architect might think.
- scotty79 2y ago
  Kinetic energy is proportional to square of velocity. It doesn't take large speed reduction to halve energies involved and thus the danger. Even not taking into account how crappy human perception and reflexes are.
- concordDance 2y ago
  I'm quite confused why I keep seeing posts like this downvoted in this thread. This post is nuanced and probably novel to most readers. Even seems correct to me.
  - LeafItAlone 2y ago
    Probably because there really isn’t any nuance in it, hand waves the physics and human factor, and it uses vague language. Want to know what any arbitrary driver on a road has as a reference for “the design speed of the road”? The posted speed limit. I’m not saying their argument is right or wrong, but just that this post isn’t nuanced or convincing.
    - marcosdumay 2y ago
      > Probably because there really isn’t any nuance in it, hand waves the physics and human factor, and it uses vague language. There is a link there, that refers to lots of scientific research. From almost a century ago to almost today, and in a huge amount of agreement. Do you have more nuance than that?
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      There's a correlation between the speed limit and the design speed, but there's also a lot of mismatch and the bias usually goes in a specific direction. A few mph over the speed limit in dry weather is rarely outside the design. And I think I have a reasonable amount of nuance. If you don't have nuance you get "the sign can't be wrong" or "always go slower". The former is objectively not true, and I've never seen anyone seriously advocate for the latter.
  - Mawr 2y ago
    Fallacious arguments have the effect of sounding correct. In this case it's the https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Continuum_fallacy https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Continuum_fallacy.
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
- Mawr 2y ago
  You can take that logic and apply it to any traffic law. Blowing red lights? Fine as long as you can tell there's no cross traffic, right? Laws were put in place because people are not in fact qualified to make these assessments. The only nuance here is that you are not required to go the speed limit at all, you can and should go only as fast as the conditions allow.

The mental hoops drivers go through to justify their unsafe behaviour...

by Mawr 2y ago

The mental hoops drivers go through to justify their unsafe behaviour...

Oh please. Let's assume people are going at a speed that the road is designed to handle, since that's usually the case. In that situation, the behavior you're calling out as unsafe is simply "going faster". Now, in a technical sense that's true, but it's always true. Going faster reduces safety when you're above the speed limit. Going faster reduces safety when you're at the speed limit. Going faster reduces safety when you're below the speed limit. If you reduce safety to black and white, then you should always go slower, until you're barely moving. If the speed limit is 40, that doesn't magically make it safe to go 40. Black and white thinking leads to a bad conclusion, so let's add nuance back in. Speed is dangerous but roads are designed to let you go a certain speed while minimizing the danger. You're not being dangerous until you go over that speed. And that speed is almost always higher than the speed limit, especially in good weather. Going over the speed limit is not itself a problem. It's going over the design speed of the road that's a problem.

vkou 2y ago
> Let's assume people are going at a speed that the road is designed to handle Let's not, because most of the speeding I see is from people who very mistakenly think they know what speed the road's designed to handle, because they don't give a crap about pedestrians, bicyclists, visibility, other vehicles, or really, anything but getting to the next red light faster. Perhaps you drive in a utopia that's solely populated by traffic architects, but here in the real world, it's populated by normal people, many of whom are bad drivers, and bad judges of road safety, but are really good at hitting the gas. Our high death rates reflect this.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  > Perhaps you drive in a utopia that's solely populated by traffic architects I drive in an area that has a lot of overbuilt roads, and I don't think that's a very uncommon situation. > they don't give a crap about pedestrians, bicyclists, visibility, other vehicles, or really, anything but getting to the next red light faster That's very dangerous even if you strictly follow the speed limit. It's a separate problem.
- katbyte 2y ago
  Overbuilt roads aka “strodes”are real common in North America and as people tend to drive the speed they feel is correct not the limit it leads people to going faster and create unsafe situation. There’s a great not just bikes video on this iirc A sign doesn’t really change behaviour but narrowing roads , separated bike lanes, pedestrian controlled crossings, roundabouts, and generally making the road “feel slower” does
  - vkou 2y ago
    I'm aware of this phenomenon. My point is that until the road is narrowed, the safe speed on it may be lower than the average backseat traffic architect might think.
scotty79 2y ago
Kinetic energy is proportional to square of velocity. It doesn't take large speed reduction to halve energies involved and thus the danger. Even not taking into account how crappy human perception and reflexes are.
concordDance 2y ago
I'm quite confused why I keep seeing posts like this downvoted in this thread. This post is nuanced and probably novel to most readers. Even seems correct to me.
- LeafItAlone 2y ago
  Probably because there really isn’t any nuance in it, hand waves the physics and human factor, and it uses vague language. Want to know what any arbitrary driver on a road has as a reference for “the design speed of the road”? The posted speed limit. I’m not saying their argument is right or wrong, but just that this post isn’t nuanced or convincing.
  - marcosdumay 2y ago
    > Probably because there really isn’t any nuance in it, hand waves the physics and human factor, and it uses vague language. There is a link there, that refers to lots of scientific research. From almost a century ago to almost today, and in a huge amount of agreement. Do you have more nuance than that?
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    There's a correlation between the speed limit and the design speed, but there's also a lot of mismatch and the bias usually goes in a specific direction. A few mph over the speed limit in dry weather is rarely outside the design. And I think I have a reasonable amount of nuance. If you don't have nuance you get "the sign can't be wrong" or "always go slower". The former is objectively not true, and I've never seen anyone seriously advocate for the latter.
- Mawr 2y ago
  Fallacious arguments have the effect of sounding correct. In this case it's the https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Continuum_fallacy https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Continuum_fallacy.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
Mawr 2y ago
You can take that logic and apply it to any traffic law. Blowing red lights? Fine as long as you can tell there's no cross traffic, right? Laws were put in place because people are not in fact qualified to make these assessments. The only nuance here is that you are not required to go the speed limit at all, you can and should go only as fast as the conditions allow.