6 ms·

Quick note - I’ve been where you are on hardware, which I imagine is “interested and curious and might have a use case”. Silicon is an industry that is related

Quick note - I’ve been where you are on hardware, which I imagine is “interested and curious and might have a use case”. Silicon is an industry that is related to software, but in no way the same, and it’s a fairly complex stack, with its own unique supply chains and considerations. All that said, if you’re exploring, have fun! If you’re getting serious I’d recommend you find someone who can help you navigate it; there are many surprising things to learn as you go. For instance, to answer your question on chips: all chips are made by ‘taping out’ - a process that yields the masks that can be used to make chips. These are only good with a specific chip maker, and will live with that chip maker near the hardware that is used to make the chips forever. It’s expensive to design the chip, and expensive to tape out, but once you have something it’s relatively cheap to make more of them. 180nm is potato quality - many many generations behind. So far behind it might actually be more expensive to get chips than at 110/65nm, although I’m only speculating here. A shuttle run means the vendor is going to put your chip designs onto a wafer with a bunch of other ones at the same time; it’s a way to share out the costs for a tape out with other customers. The general idea of a 180nm tape out is likely that you want some parts to test in your infrastructure / build ahead of your full launch. Think of it like a compile with -debug turned all the way up. Usually you’d then either adjust the design and re-do a shuttle run (your compile turned up real problems or your use case changed), or you’d shrink and make your own wafer, (turn on optimization and compile for deployment). Shrinking from 180 to 110 or 65 is likely almost totally an automatic process these days; as you go smaller, analog physics makes this challenging. So, upshot: you probably could ask for another shuttle run, but you’d have a higher part cost than your first run because you’d be paying for the whole wafer alone this time, but only able to use the part that has your chips on it. And, you’d need to be in a world where you really wanted another 300 chips of the same potato speed (and possibly quality) as your first run. Most likely a silicon consultant would find a more efficient use case for your needs, whether that’s a small geometry FPGA that is programmable, an existing chip (there are A LOT of chips in the world), or some other solution. Anyway, have fun if you get into it — fascinating world.

throwup238 2y ago
180nm is “potato quality” but still commonly used for automotive chips like PMICs. Though I suspect you’re right that a newer node would cost the same. 180 nm fabs are getting to the point where replacing machines is prohibitively expensive and spare parts have to be custom made.
- dfgs234 2y ago
  > 180 nm fabs are getting to the point where replacing machines is prohibitively expensive and spare parts have to be custom made. Do you have a reference for that? I'm not sure why it would be true. 180nm lines have many other advantages, like better transistor gain for analog, lower leakage, more advanced device types and BCD. Some 180nm lines can also do MEMS. Maybe a couple of foundries are struggling but I would've thought 180nm was still going pretty strong.
  - throwup238 2y ago
    180nm is still going plenty strong and the fabs get a constant stream of upgrades, but the lithography systems are officially EOL. ASML/Nikon/Canon don’t make them anymore except for the occasional (very expensive) custom order and the cost of repairing them is steadily increasing. If they don’t need the bigger node size, greenfield projects are better off with a smaller node but anyone with an existing design is going to keep using it. It’s just a cost-curve thing - older nodes eventually hit the other end of the bathtub curve where keeping the fab running gets more and more expensive while newer nodes are still cheap.
    - dfgs234 2y ago
      That doesn't really match my experience. I could be totally wrong though because I don't get to look at the books. ASML it still announcing DUV systems on their product page. I would think this would mean they would be very happy to sell you a new one. https://www.asml.com/en/products/duv-lithography-systems https://www.asml.com/en/products/duv-lithography-systems And machine revitalization and refurbishment is an important selling point for this kind of capital equipment. https://www.asml.com/en/news/stories/2023/revitalization-through-refurbishment https://www.asml.com/en/news/stories/2023/revitalization-thr... "Did you know that approximately 95% of ASML lithography systems sold in the past 30 years are still active in the field? As of the end of 2022, more than 5,000 of our machines are hard at work in chipmaking fabs globally – a feat made possible by the fact that our systems can be repaired, refurbished and repurposed throughout their life cycles. It’s all part of our commitment to supporting a circular economy in the semiconductor industry that reduces waste, adds value and lessens environmental impact." "Currently there’s a growing market in the semiconductor industry for mature DUV technology solutions. Refurbished systems provide cost-effective options for chipmakers looking to scale up in that area."
pjc50 2y ago
Can confirm that lots of our ~10 year old designs are getting a re-spin on newer processes for exactly this reason. The availability of the old ones is going down. As for "can you order more if SiFive goes out of business": the detail here is going to be in all the other bits on the chip. Maybe they're free licensed, maybe they're not. You probably wouldn't get the GDSII that SiFive sent to the fab. You'd need to arrange another shuttle run. You might be too small for the fab to return your calls. It's a pretty niche kind of manufacturing activity. Not many businesses really need a custom CPU.
- withinboredom 2y ago
  > You might be too small for the fab to return your calls. How long till there is a self-service SaaS for this?
  - convolvatron 2y ago
    a couple reasons why this is unlikely anytime soon. one is that the engineering processes between the designer and the fab are still too tightly coupled. some for good reason and some that they want to sell you engineering servives. the other is that the fab schedule is heavily laced with sales politics. getting a timely slot is largely a factor of how important a customer you are and none about scheduling work. they have as much work as they could ever want.
    - withinboredom 2y ago
      So, if I am hearing you correctly, someone starting this up would have all the customers they could ever want simply by being easy to use, well documented, and no sales bullshit?
      - convolvatron 2y ago
        if they just a had a few hundreds of billions lying around to prop up competitive fabs. absolutely!
      - 2y ago
Pet_Ant 2y ago
> 180nm is potato quality - many many generations behind. So far behind it might actually be more expensive to get chips than at 110/65nm, although I’m only speculating here. I mean that is year 2000 level-tech. PlayStation 2/Pentium 3/AMD Duron/GameCube levels. That is not potato. You can definitely do things with it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/180_nm_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/180_nm_process
amelius 2y ago
What EDA software do you need and how much does it cost?
- bgnn 2y ago
  Normal prices are extremely high and depend on the tech node. A simple CPU development in something advanced like 5nm would probably require a license package for 30+ engineers for 2 years or so. This would cost millions of $ per year. Depends how good you negotiate your prices. Some start-ups get 99% discount if they know a guy. The EDA is dominated by Synopsys, Cadence and Mentor Graphics. Each offer every tool but what I often see is a mix and match of tools from all three.

throwup238 2y ago

180nm is “potato quality” but still commonly used for automotive chips like PMICs. Though I suspect you’re right that a newer node would cost the same. 180 nm fabs are getting to the point where replacing machines is prohibitively expensive and spare parts have to be custom made.

dfgs234 2y ago
> 180 nm fabs are getting to the point where replacing machines is prohibitively expensive and spare parts have to be custom made. Do you have a reference for that? I'm not sure why it would be true. 180nm lines have many other advantages, like better transistor gain for analog, lower leakage, more advanced device types and BCD. Some 180nm lines can also do MEMS. Maybe a couple of foundries are struggling but I would've thought 180nm was still going pretty strong.
- throwup238 2y ago
  180nm is still going plenty strong and the fabs get a constant stream of upgrades, but the lithography systems are officially EOL. ASML/Nikon/Canon don’t make them anymore except for the occasional (very expensive) custom order and the cost of repairing them is steadily increasing. If they don’t need the bigger node size, greenfield projects are better off with a smaller node but anyone with an existing design is going to keep using it. It’s just a cost-curve thing - older nodes eventually hit the other end of the bathtub curve where keeping the fab running gets more and more expensive while newer nodes are still cheap.
  - dfgs234 2y ago
    That doesn't really match my experience. I could be totally wrong though because I don't get to look at the books. ASML it still announcing DUV systems on their product page. I would think this would mean they would be very happy to sell you a new one. https://www.asml.com/en/products/duv-lithography-systems https://www.asml.com/en/products/duv-lithography-systems And machine revitalization and refurbishment is an important selling point for this kind of capital equipment. https://www.asml.com/en/news/stories/2023/revitalization-through-refurbishment https://www.asml.com/en/news/stories/2023/revitalization-thr... "Did you know that approximately 95% of ASML lithography systems sold in the past 30 years are still active in the field? As of the end of 2022, more than 5,000 of our machines are hard at work in chipmaking fabs globally – a feat made possible by the fact that our systems can be repaired, refurbished and repurposed throughout their life cycles. It’s all part of our commitment to supporting a circular economy in the semiconductor industry that reduces waste, adds value and lessens environmental impact." "Currently there’s a growing market in the semiconductor industry for mature DUV technology solutions. Refurbished systems provide cost-effective options for chipmakers looking to scale up in that area."

pjc50 2y ago

Can confirm that lots of our ~10 year old designs are getting a re-spin on newer processes for exactly this reason. The availability of the old ones is going down. As for "can you order more if SiFive goes out of business": the detail here is going to be in all the other bits on the chip. Maybe they're free licensed, maybe they're not. You probably wouldn't get the GDSII that SiFive sent to the fab. You'd need to arrange another shuttle run. You might be too small for the fab to return your calls. It's a pretty niche kind of manufacturing activity. Not many businesses really need a custom CPU.

withinboredom 2y ago
> You might be too small for the fab to return your calls. How long till there is a self-service SaaS for this?
- convolvatron 2y ago
  a couple reasons why this is unlikely anytime soon. one is that the engineering processes between the designer and the fab are still too tightly coupled. some for good reason and some that they want to sell you engineering servives. the other is that the fab schedule is heavily laced with sales politics. getting a timely slot is largely a factor of how important a customer you are and none about scheduling work. they have as much work as they could ever want.
  - withinboredom 2y ago
    So, if I am hearing you correctly, someone starting this up would have all the customers they could ever want simply by being easy to use, well documented, and no sales bullshit?
    - convolvatron 2y ago
      if they just a had a few hundreds of billions lying around to prop up competitive fabs. absolutely!
    - 2y ago

Pet_Ant 2y ago

> 180nm is potato quality - many many generations behind. So far behind it might actually be more expensive to get chips than at 110/65nm, although I’m only speculating here. I mean that is year 2000 level-tech. PlayStation 2/Pentium 3/AMD Duron/GameCube levels. That is not potato. You can definitely do things with it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/180_nm_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/180_nm_process

amelius 2y ago

What EDA software do you need and how much does it cost?

bgnn 2y ago
Normal prices are extremely high and depend on the tech node. A simple CPU development in something advanced like 5nm would probably require a license package for 30+ engineers for 2 years or so. This would cost millions of $ per year. Depends how good you negotiate your prices. Some start-ups get 99% discount if they know a guy. The EDA is dominated by Synopsys, Cadence and Mentor Graphics. Each offer every tool but what I often see is a mix and match of tools from all three.