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Fern Hollow Bridge should have been closed years before it collapsed
- augustl 2y agoPredictions and pre vs post accident is an interesting subject. Which bridge that is currently in operation should be closed next? (Not a dunk on the article, which brilliantly addresses the difficulty of knowing in advance vs making real world changes. Practical Engineering is an awesome YouTube channel!)
- loeg 2y ago> Which bridge that is currently in operation should be closed next? The article/video actually touches on this: > The City of Pittsburgh quadrupled their spending on inspection, maintenance, and repairs. And they redid the load ratings on all the bridges they owned, resulting in one bridge being closed until it can be rehabilitated and two more having lane restrictions imposed. I don't know which one bridge it is, though.
- carols10cents 2y agoIt's the Charles Anderson Bridge. https://engage.pittsburghpa.gov/charles-anderson-bridge https://engage.pittsburghpa.gov/charles-anderson-bridge
- holmium 2y agoDamn, I was hoping this bridge would stay in its current limbo state where it's open to pedestrians and bikes but closed to vehicles. It's so much nicer not having a five lane stroad that lets cars go 50mph into a park, and instead having a pseudo-community space.
- readthenotes1 2y agoThe article goes incoherent in the first paragraph: "...collapsed without warning. ...And this bridge had been listed as being in ‘poor condition’ for over a decade. "
- jlund-molfese 2y agoPractical Engineering is emphasizing the suddenness of the collapse itself and pointing out that it was impossible for drivers (who were not aware of past inspections) to do anything about it. There is no inconsistency.
- magicalhippo 2y agoWhen it finally collapsed it did so without warning, but it was abundantly foreshadowed.
- kibwen 2y agoIt really is supremely fortunate that the collapse took place in the early morning when few people were about. I've walked under that bridge many times, it's a lovely recreational footpath through the heart of Frick Park, and more than once I've clambered up the hillside under the bridge for fun.
- fh973 2y agoThis is all interesting, but misses the point: the bridge collapsed due to a social (management, responsibilities, organization, ...) failure. Investigating the engineering story distracts from that, both in the video and apparently effectively as there is a NTSB investigation and not mentioning if any organizational review if the same rigor.
- kd5bjo 2y agoHe talks about this a bit in the final three paragraphs, that the people writing the work orders are already overwhelmed by the amount of paperwork they need to deal with, preventing them from paying enough attention to what these reports are actually saying, and these new recommendations will have the primary effect of increasing that burden.
- p_l 2y ago(haven't yet read the full report) If NTSB in non-aviation areas works the same way as in aviation areas, that's definitely covered by the investigation. That's why ridiculously common case summarized as "pilot error" usually involves several components including organization, training, etc. EDIT (After reading the report): And indeed, "what we found" section and "what we recommend" is all about how PennDOT and related orgs operate.
- rini17 2y agoGrady does not miss the point, but repeatedly says he does not understand the social part. This calls for someone else with better expertise to do that kind of analysis.
- beowulfey 2y agoI would argue that he did not miss the point at all actually--he deliberately mentions it at the end.
- m2f2 2y agoSame stuff for the Genoa, Italy bridge (Ponte Morandi). Everyone running on that would feel vibrations and "repairs" were just lipstick on a ugly face, until it finally collapsed, with 43 dead. Surprisingly, or not so, no one was found guilty, not even the inspectors that didn't report the ongoing damages, just because "it would be too costly to rebuild it, and profits of the highway company (1) in charge of it would be zero". (1) the company name is Atlantia, fully owned at the time by the Benetton family, yes those of the sweater chain
- rapsey 2y agoYet Italy spent years trying to put Adrian Newey in jail for building an f1 car involved in a fatal crash.
- pjc50 2y agoNot a well-connected Italian, obviously.
- lelanthran 2y ago> Not a well-connected Italian, obviously. Obviously, since he isn't an Italian at all :-/
- shiroiushi 2y agoThey also tried to put a bunch of earthquake scientists in jail for not predicting an earthquake.
- naasking 2y agoNo, they were jailed because they reassured the population that there was no risk of earthquake, when there absolutely was. That's very different.
- DangitBobby 2y agoStill ridiculous, though. Do doctors in Italy go to jail for giving false negative cancer diagnoses? Can I sue the weather man when I get struck by lightning when they said there's no chance of rain? Maybe next time the public should interpret the seismographs themselves. Edit: It was eventually overturned [1]. Still, a shocking indictment of the court system. 1. https://www.theverge.com/2014/11/11/7193391/italy-judges-clear-geologists-manslaughter-laquila-earthquake-fear https://www.theverge.com/2014/11/11/7193391/italy-judges-cle...
- speakspokespok 2y agoI just spent the last 4 years living in a series of countries that Americans would call ‘3rd world’. Places where proper funding of infrastructure, let alone inspections are so far below US metrics of adequate, they’d legitimately scare you. Bridges and overpasses that exist until they break and the people die. People call out to God for justice! But all that infra is then rebuilt the same way if it’s rebuilt / when it’s rebuilt. Something something American tech people have forgotten just how amazing the US is because they don’t realize how good it is. They take too much for granted. They have the safety to be snarky on the internet. Get a passport and go for a walk.
- LeoPanthera 2y ago"Things are worse elsewhere" is not a valid reason to endure a poor standard of living here when we absolutely do not have to.
- MaxikCZ 2y agoSo its okay that bridges in US fall, even when being inspected dozen of times and being urged for repairs every time, because other countries have it worse? Why not compare to country where bridges dont fall at all?
- bell-cot 2y ago> Why not compare... On the engineering side - you learn far more from analyzing failures than from analyzing successes. On the social side - there's nothing mysterious about how the US bureaucracy failed here. Briefly contrasting that with Utopialand (where the society & government are different, and bridges never fall) can work as journalism. Or as a rebuttal to "failures will always happen" doomsayers. But the utility is pretty limited. The US isn't a tech company, where you might fire up the troops by talking about how your competition is delivering obviously-better results on metric X.
- lucianbr 2y ago> On the engineering side - you learn far more from analyzing failures than from analyzing successes. This is just sophistry. You won't learn how this collapse could have been prevented, or how to prevent others like it, by studying countries where infrastructure is worse. You're already doing better than those places, and still it's not enough. Also, I'm pretty sure engineering schools study both failures and successes. It is incredible to me that someone would honestly believe studying bridges that have not fallen is useless.
- defrost 2y agoFor those interested in the official NTSB report: Collapse of the Fern Hollow Bridge Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania January 28, 2022 Highway Investigation Report HIR-24-02 released: February 21, 2024 PDF (136 pages): https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HIR2402.pdf https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/...
- viewtransform 2y agoNTSB Animation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-VnWB4fiFk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-VnWB4fiFk
- dmurray 2y agoIf you knew all this, would you have avoided driving over the bridge? Would you have wanted the local government to close it indefinitely awaiting repairs? Let's say it would collapse with 100% certainty randomly in the next three years, and you're in the danger area for 2 minutes, with a 20% chance of fatality (in fact, nobody died). That's still around a one in 4 million chance any given trip kills you, about the same as 30 miles of driving for the average American driver. Most people would accept that level of risk. Perhaps not to save a couple of minutes on the journey, but if everyone was redirected to another route at rush hour, it might cost each commuter 10-20 minutes. A handful of newsworthy bridge collapses per decade across the US doesn't seem so bad. Instead of negligence, perhaps that indicates an appropriate level of maintenance and risk tolerance, and an appropriate human price to add to the 500,000 other road deaths over the same period.
- arethuza 2y ago"Most people would accept that level of risk" I wouldn't and I definitely wouldn't if I had other people in the car.
- AdamN 2y agoIt's likely that you live in an area with similar mortality risk from air pollution. Is there a reason not to move to an area with lower risk from air pollution?
- arethuza 2y agoYes, I'm being "irrational" by some viewpoint, I know that.
- jorvi 2y agoLoneliness is quite damaging to someone’s health. Why are you irrationally suggesting to him to dump all his social ties and net raise his risk of disease and death? :)
- 1992spacemovie 2y ago
- hi-v-rocknroll 2y agoFor context, there were 42,391 structurally deficient bridges in 2023.[0] 16 of the worst are in LA county and several see 300k trips daily, including one carrying the 405.[1] 0. PDF https://artbabridgereport.org/reports/2023-ARTBA-Bridge-Report.pdf https://artbabridgereport.org/reports/2023-ARTBA-Bridge-Repo... 1. https://artbabridgereport.org/state/ranking/top-bridges https://artbabridgereport.org/state/ranking/top-bridges EDIT: States with the least % of SD bridges: AZ, NV, TX, DE, and UT. WV and IA have the most at almost 20% SD bridges respectively. (1 in 5!) EDIT2: Raw data https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/bridge/nbi/ascii.cfm https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/bridge/nbi/ascii.cfm
- francisofascii 2y agoIt should be mentioned that structurally deficient does not mean unsafe.
- greggsy 2y agoAfter reading the measument rules, it is… complicated. From what I can gather, it seem that if any of the components (deck, culverts, sub/superstructure, waterways, etc) receive a ‘poor’ rating, the whole structure is marked as structurally deficient. It also factors in things like the current and expected traffic patterns and mainability. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/01/18/2017-00550/national-performance-management-measures-assessing-pavement-condition-for-the-national-highway https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/01/18/2017-00...
- icegreentea2 2y agoYes, but as illustrated by the original article/video, bridges are designed as a total system. One of the major causes of the Fern Hollow Bridge collapse was certainly the deficient drainage caused by blocked drains. Bridges (and buildings) are designed as systems. Water management is one of the biggest headaches in civil engineering - poor performance of any subsystem with a water management role is a legitimate cause for concern.
- michaelt 2y ago
- wrongtrousers 2y ago[dead]
- ThinkBeat 2y agoMany western countries in general do not care for routine maintenance of infrastructure / buildings / water lines / busses. Norway has to be among the worst. It is not fun and glorious for a political administration to set aside $$$$ every year that will just go to people doing boring work that the voters will not be impressed with. You dont see politicians "Under my administration we painted XX buildings, we did need maintenance of YY bridges, we replaced ZZ parts of the railway that would become problematic with time. Rather: "Under my administration we opened up a new large hospital (because the other had near 0 maintannce for decades), we built 2 new bridges etc"
- ruszki 2y ago> Norway has to be among the worst. That strange to hear. Why do you have this feeling? After visiting Porto and Italy around and below Napoli, I cannot imagine that there are any place in Nordic countries which has even just similar tolerance to not maintain something. But I don’t know too much about Norway specifically.
- Aerroon 2y ago"If you don't want to pay taxes then who's gonna pay for the roads?" Apparently, nobody pays for it either way. It's astounding to me how little tax money goes into paying for infrastructure. In 2023 the US federal government spent $44.8 billion on infrastructure and transferred $81.5 billion to the states. That's $126.3 billion out of a $6.1 trillion budget. ('Only' $4.4 trillion in revenue though.) That's 2% of the budget.
- rileymat2 2y agoIn theory, shouldn't it be this way? Having localities pay from local tax money seems like it would focus money on expenditures that the people that use them and pay for them will approve of with their own skin in the game. There are some interstate highways that serve multiple localities, but these should be the minority, right?
- immibis 2y ago
- bigbacaloa 2y ago[dead]
- francisofascii 2y agoAn interesting takeaway is that a simple task like cleaning the drainage grates and preventing them from being clogged probably would have saved the bridge. The bridge has a prescribed drainage path, and with the grates clogged the water drains and pools in other places, accelerating the corrosion.
- 7ep 2y ago> No one holds a press conference and cuts a big ribbon at the end of a bridge inspection or structural retrofit. maybe they should. maybe we could celebrate repair like we do new construction. there’s a comfort in knowing we’ve been put good again that’s worth signifying.
- more_corn 2y agoThis is why I think nuclear power is a bad idea. Paying back a multibillion dollar investment takes decades. Operating costs eat into profits. The financial incentive is to run them as cheaply as possible for as long as possible. In a place where there’s a strong work ethic and good maintenance history that might be fine. Look around at your infrastructure before climbing on the nuclear bandwagon.
- samatman 2y agoA better comparison for nuclear power is the airplane industry. No one goes into the bridge running plant every day and runs the bridge for a living, with several people assigned to run a daily checklist on said bridge. But it's still not a very good comparison, because airplanes, due to their very nature, can't be designed to fail safe. Nuclear power plants can.
- glitcher 2y agoNot an engineer, found the video on this fascinating and very approachable. It sounds like the NTSB report did a surprisingly good job of addressing the multiple mistakes and failures that led to the bridge collapse. But to the bigger point made near the end, without a person in the loop who both appreciates the meaning held within the inspection reports AND having the power to act on that information, we still remain vulnerable to the complexity of our own social systems becoming too inefficient to handle problems like this.
- gp 2y agoI used to walk across this bridge every day. You could feel whole bridge shake when heavy vehicles would drive over it (Lived in Reagent Square 2017 - 2019). I remember one morning I was trapped on the bridge for an hour in traffic on my drive to school because the city of Pittsburgh could not afford to keep the roads plowed. Very thankful that nobody was hurt when it collapsed, and as other people have pointed out it is representative of all of the infrastructure that many cities have but can no longer afford to maintain or replace.
- cvz 2y agoUnfortunately people were hurt, the good news is nobody died. https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/completely-preventable-one-year-after-fern-hollows-collapse-victims-file-lawsuits/ https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/completely-preventab...
- chiph 2y agoTo prevent this from happening in the future, I would give the inspectors the right to immediately close a bridge when it got to be this bad. If the owner forcibly reopened it, they would lose any insurance coverage on it (be totally liable for consequences).
- simple10 2y agoThis seems reasonable, but there's also the concern of abuse of power. Like when the mob or politicians had control of local labor unions and inspectors on payroll. They would force closures of bridges, roads, building, etc to hire mob run construction companies to do the repairs. Maybe there are enough federal safeguards in place for this now at DOT (Department of Transportation) level.
- nickff 2y agoNobody would hire the ‘assertive’ engineers or firms, so it’d be a very rarely used power.