9 ms·

This is interesting, but it'll have a JH7110 and microsd for storage, so it's basically just a RISC-V SBC but in a Framework mainboard form-factor. SBCs with th

by bogwog 2y ago

This is interesting, but it'll have a JH7110 and microsd for storage, so it's basically just a RISC-V SBC but in a Framework mainboard form-factor. SBCs with that specific processor seem to be pretty cheap, like the Milk-V Mars which is selling for around $40 currently. The idea of a RISC-V laptop sounds cool, but this feels like just grabbing a raspberry pi and sticking it in a laptop chasis. It doesn't seem like this is going to really offer anything new in this space other than maybe some increased visibility for RISC-V (esp. if Linus Tech Tips covers it), and a neat project/option for people with existing Framework parts. As far as development purposes, I don't see what this offers over an existing SBC or even just a VM. From what I've seen of people running Linux on these things, it is definitely not something you'd want to develop on... plus, it seems like DeepCompute sells their own RISC-V laptops which are (probably) more powerful than this thing: https://store.deepcomputing.io/products/dc-roma-riscv-laptop-ii-with-octa-core-cpu https://store.deepcomputing.io/products/dc-roma-riscv-laptop...

pikminguy 2y ago
I think visibility is probably the primary goal which is not a bad thing. As for actual use the potential lies in the modularity. You could work primarily from an x86 laptop but swap the RISK-V board in for testing. And whichever board isn't currently in the laptop can be even be loaded into the small desktop shell Framework makes. If the price is right an existing Framework user could possibly get a RISC-V machine for less money than one of the dedicated laptops from DeepCompute without needing to buy another screen, keyboard, battery, etc and end up with a better build quality to boot.
rbanffy 2y ago
What if, with the space you have for the motherboard, you add not one SoC but, say, seven, all connected through an in-PCB network. One has the external ports while all others are headless. A small cluster in the shape of a laptop.
- bee_rider 2y ago
  This would be super cool. I don’t know if it would have any actual use in industry. But it would be really neat for people learning MPI/cluster computing. He said, while waiting for a run to go through SLURM.
  - rbanffy 2y ago
    I've been thinking of doing something with Octavo parts, because my electronic design skills are totally obsolete now and they are simple to integrate. My idea is a board with 16 parts (for 32 cores) with red LEDs lining up one side mimicking a Thinking Machines CM-1 cube. Not a CM-1, but a lot of nodes if you join 16 boards per cube.
    - bee_rider 2y ago
      Are they selling a service of, like, building a multi-chip package where you pick the chiplets? That seems crazy futuristic.
      - rbanffy 2y ago
        No. They sell bundled parts where they integrate SoC, memory and passives so that you can just connect power lines, an SD card, and start running it.
- crote 2y ago
  Putting that many nontrivial SoCs into a laptop-sized chassis isn't really possible - just look at how busy this single-SoC motherboard already is[0]. It would make far more sense to go the traditional Raspberry Pi cluster way, either as discrete nodes[1], daughterboards[2], or as blades[3]. [0]: https://deepcomputing.io/a-risc-v-world-first-independently-developed-risc-v-mainboard-for-a-framework-laptop-from-deepcomputing/ https://deepcomputing.io/a-risc-v-world-first-independently-... [1]: https://www.raspberrypi.com/tutorials/cluster-raspberry-pi-tutorial/ https://www.raspberrypi.com/tutorials/cluster-raspberry-pi-t... [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecdm3oA-QdQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecdm3oA-QdQ, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6zt8KeXFdA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6zt8KeXFdA [3]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKDGlpnP-vE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKDGlpnP-vE
  - rbanffy 2y ago
    I was thinking more like this [0] or [1] but laptop. [0] https://deskpi.com/products/deskpi-super6c-raspberry-pi-cm4-cluster-mini-itx-board-6-rpi-cm4-supported https://deskpi.com/products/deskpi-super6c-raspberry-pi-cm4-... [1] https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/Clusterboard https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/Clusterboard
bityard 2y ago
> like the Milk-V Mars which is selling for around $40 currently. Or was, apparently? Seems to be out of stock and there's no restock or backorder date shown.
kibwen 2y ago
> it's basically just a RISC-V SBC but in a Framework mainboard form-factor. As someone who's been looking for an excuse to get a Framework, I'm thrilled at the idea that if this doesn't pan out, I can just swap in a different mainboard and convert it to a full-featured x86 laptop, and then donate the RISC-V mainboard to the tinkerers at my local hackerspace (who are more than capable of 3D-printing a nice enclosure for it).
- speed_spread 2y ago
  You don't even need to 3D print anything, just get the official mainboard enclosure https://frame.work/ca/en/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case https://frame.work/ca/en/products/cooler-master-mainboard-ca...
- gtirloni 2y ago
  Going from a regular Framework mainboard with x86 to this RISC-V will be quite the drop in performance. It's really huge. You don't need to guess.
  - Zambyte 2y ago
    They didn't say anything about performance though?
    - packetlost 2y ago
      It's a chip that you could buy over 2 years ago. It's a JH7110 SoC which you can buy for like $40 in one of several SBC: https://www.starfivetech.com/en/site/boards https://www.starfivetech.com/en/site/boards https://pine64.com/product-category/star64/ https://pine64.com/product-category/star64/ https://milkv.io/mars https://milkv.io/mars I happen to have 2 of them and they're dog slow, pre-vector extension RISC-V. You cannot do much useful with them, they're slower than a Raspberry Pi 3.
      - Zambyte 2y ago
        I meant kibwen, not the OP.
MenhirMike 2y ago
> grabbing a raspberry pi and sticking it in a laptop chasis OT, but does something like that exist for the Pi 5? I actually loved the Pi 400 Desktop Kit (I hope they make one for the Pi 5!), and I saw quite a few laptop shells for the Pi 4, but I've not seen anything announced for the Pi 5 except for various ridiculous "desktop" cases (like the Pironman 5 that I've actually ordered).
- sitkack 2y ago
  When the CM5 module comes out, your problems will be solved.
  - MenhirMike 2y ago
    Good point, the form factor of the regular isn't suited. But I do hope that someone will actually make a laptop shell for it.
raunakchhatwal 2y ago
"From what I've seen of people running Linux on these things, it is definitely not something you'd want to develop on" Can you please elaborate? I'm a programmer with a linux framework laptop (NixOS specifically).
- theodric 2y ago
  It's slow to the point of being outpaced by an ARM SBC from 2016, and it's not even current with today's RISC-V spec. This is a curiosity, nothing more, but it will still be far and away the nicest (but not the only!) RISC-V laptop. Give me a Pi CM5 + 16GB RAM Framework motherboard carrier and I'll get out my credit card. Benchmarks of the CPU in question: https://www.phoronix.com/review/visionfive2-riscv-benchmarks/6 https://www.phoronix.com/review/visionfive2-riscv-benchmarks...
  - brucehoult 2y ago
    Completely ridiculous benchmarks for what people will use this board for. The xz compression and SQLite are the only slightly relevant tests -- and on those it's pretty close to a Pi 400. Comparing an 8 GB JH7110 board to a 1 GB Pi 3 is beyond ridiculous. The Pi might win a few micro-benchmarks that use NEON, but not general purpose C code, and in real use 1 GB is incredibly limiting. All Arm SBCs at present as far as I know -- certainly including the Pi 5 and RK3588 boards (Rock 5 etc) -- are far behind the current Arm ISA, as they implement ARMv8.2-A from 2016. And none of them even have the optional SVE vector ISA that was defined as part of ARMv8.2-A. In contrast, the JH7110 implements mid 2019 RISC-V specs, plus some things from late 2021 (e.g. Zba and Zbb). The SpaceMIT 8 core SoC in the BPI-F3, Muse Book and others being released now implements RVA22+Vector ratified in March 2023. The Canaan K230 (on e.g. the CanMV-K230 board) also implements the same RVA22+Vector spec. Late this year the 16 core ~2.5 GHz P670 (A78-class) SoC will leapfrog anything available on currently known Arm SBCs. Milk-V say the base model of their Oasis SBC will be $119. Sipeed says a fully-kitted board will be $300.
- aseipp 2y ago
  The JH7110 is a multi-year-old SBC that is slower than a Raspberry Pi 3 is. It does not have many extensions for things people today take for granted (no hardware crypto for instance is in practice a massive loss.) So, if you're OK with that, then it will be fine. But most people probably aren't interested in making their expensive laptop perform worse than a 15-year-old device in every way.
snvzz 2y ago
>plus, it seems like DeepCompute sells their own RISC-V laptops which are (probably) more powerful than this thing: Yeah. spacemiT K1 is a new chip, 8core, RVA22 with Vector extension. JH7110 is old in contrast. Was first seen in VisionFive 2 in January 2023. Only 4 cores, slower, and RVA20 without Vector.

by bogwog 2y ago

pikminguy 2y ago

I think visibility is probably the primary goal which is not a bad thing. As for actual use the potential lies in the modularity. You could work primarily from an x86 laptop but swap the RISK-V board in for testing. And whichever board isn't currently in the laptop can be even be loaded into the small desktop shell Framework makes. If the price is right an existing Framework user could possibly get a RISC-V machine for less money than one of the dedicated laptops from DeepCompute without needing to buy another screen, keyboard, battery, etc and end up with a better build quality to boot.

rbanffy 2y ago

What if, with the space you have for the motherboard, you add not one SoC but, say, seven, all connected through an in-PCB network. One has the external ports while all others are headless. A small cluster in the shape of a laptop.

bee_rider 2y ago
This would be super cool. I don’t know if it would have any actual use in industry. But it would be really neat for people learning MPI/cluster computing. He said, while waiting for a run to go through SLURM.
- rbanffy 2y ago
  I've been thinking of doing something with Octavo parts, because my electronic design skills are totally obsolete now and they are simple to integrate. My idea is a board with 16 parts (for 32 cores) with red LEDs lining up one side mimicking a Thinking Machines CM-1 cube. Not a CM-1, but a lot of nodes if you join 16 boards per cube.
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    Are they selling a service of, like, building a multi-chip package where you pick the chiplets? That seems crazy futuristic.
    - rbanffy 2y ago
      No. They sell bundled parts where they integrate SoC, memory and passives so that you can just connect power lines, an SD card, and start running it.
crote 2y ago
Putting that many nontrivial SoCs into a laptop-sized chassis isn't really possible - just look at how busy this single-SoC motherboard already is[0]. It would make far more sense to go the traditional Raspberry Pi cluster way, either as discrete nodes[1], daughterboards[2], or as blades[3]. [0]: https://deepcomputing.io/a-risc-v-world-first-independently-developed-risc-v-mainboard-for-a-framework-laptop-from-deepcomputing/ https://deepcomputing.io/a-risc-v-world-first-independently-... [1]: https://www.raspberrypi.com/tutorials/cluster-raspberry-pi-tutorial/ https://www.raspberrypi.com/tutorials/cluster-raspberry-pi-t... [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecdm3oA-QdQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecdm3oA-QdQ, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6zt8KeXFdA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6zt8KeXFdA [3]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKDGlpnP-vE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKDGlpnP-vE
- rbanffy 2y ago
  I was thinking more like this [0] or [1] but laptop. [0] https://deskpi.com/products/deskpi-super6c-raspberry-pi-cm4-cluster-mini-itx-board-6-rpi-cm4-supported https://deskpi.com/products/deskpi-super6c-raspberry-pi-cm4-... [1] https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/Clusterboard https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/Clusterboard

bityard 2y ago

> like the Milk-V Mars which is selling for around $40 currently. Or was, apparently? Seems to be out of stock and there's no restock or backorder date shown.

kibwen 2y ago

> it's basically just a RISC-V SBC but in a Framework mainboard form-factor. As someone who's been looking for an excuse to get a Framework, I'm thrilled at the idea that if this doesn't pan out, I can just swap in a different mainboard and convert it to a full-featured x86 laptop, and then donate the RISC-V mainboard to the tinkerers at my local hackerspace (who are more than capable of 3D-printing a nice enclosure for it).

speed_spread 2y ago
You don't even need to 3D print anything, just get the official mainboard enclosure https://frame.work/ca/en/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case https://frame.work/ca/en/products/cooler-master-mainboard-ca...
gtirloni 2y ago
Going from a regular Framework mainboard with x86 to this RISC-V will be quite the drop in performance. It's really huge. You don't need to guess.
- Zambyte 2y ago
  They didn't say anything about performance though?
  - packetlost 2y ago
    It's a chip that you could buy over 2 years ago. It's a JH7110 SoC which you can buy for like $40 in one of several SBC: https://www.starfivetech.com/en/site/boards https://www.starfivetech.com/en/site/boards https://pine64.com/product-category/star64/ https://pine64.com/product-category/star64/ https://milkv.io/mars https://milkv.io/mars I happen to have 2 of them and they're dog slow, pre-vector extension RISC-V. You cannot do much useful with them, they're slower than a Raspberry Pi 3.
    - Zambyte 2y ago
      I meant kibwen, not the OP.

MenhirMike 2y ago

> grabbing a raspberry pi and sticking it in a laptop chasis OT, but does something like that exist for the Pi 5? I actually loved the Pi 400 Desktop Kit (I hope they make one for the Pi 5!), and I saw quite a few laptop shells for the Pi 4, but I've not seen anything announced for the Pi 5 except for various ridiculous "desktop" cases (like the Pironman 5 that I've actually ordered).

sitkack 2y ago
When the CM5 module comes out, your problems will be solved.
- MenhirMike 2y ago
  Good point, the form factor of the regular isn't suited. But I do hope that someone will actually make a laptop shell for it.

raunakchhatwal 2y ago

"From what I've seen of people running Linux on these things, it is definitely not something you'd want to develop on" Can you please elaborate? I'm a programmer with a linux framework laptop (NixOS specifically).

theodric 2y ago
It's slow to the point of being outpaced by an ARM SBC from 2016, and it's not even current with today's RISC-V spec. This is a curiosity, nothing more, but it will still be far and away the nicest (but not the only!) RISC-V laptop. Give me a Pi CM5 + 16GB RAM Framework motherboard carrier and I'll get out my credit card. Benchmarks of the CPU in question: https://www.phoronix.com/review/visionfive2-riscv-benchmarks/6 https://www.phoronix.com/review/visionfive2-riscv-benchmarks...
- brucehoult 2y ago
  Completely ridiculous benchmarks for what people will use this board for. The xz compression and SQLite are the only slightly relevant tests -- and on those it's pretty close to a Pi 400. Comparing an 8 GB JH7110 board to a 1 GB Pi 3 is beyond ridiculous. The Pi might win a few micro-benchmarks that use NEON, but not general purpose C code, and in real use 1 GB is incredibly limiting. All Arm SBCs at present as far as I know -- certainly including the Pi 5 and RK3588 boards (Rock 5 etc) -- are far behind the current Arm ISA, as they implement ARMv8.2-A from 2016. And none of them even have the optional SVE vector ISA that was defined as part of ARMv8.2-A. In contrast, the JH7110 implements mid 2019 RISC-V specs, plus some things from late 2021 (e.g. Zba and Zbb). The SpaceMIT 8 core SoC in the BPI-F3, Muse Book and others being released now implements RVA22+Vector ratified in March 2023. The Canaan K230 (on e.g. the CanMV-K230 board) also implements the same RVA22+Vector spec. Late this year the 16 core ~2.5 GHz P670 (A78-class) SoC will leapfrog anything available on currently known Arm SBCs. Milk-V say the base model of their Oasis SBC will be $119. Sipeed says a fully-kitted board will be $300.
aseipp 2y ago
The JH7110 is a multi-year-old SBC that is slower than a Raspberry Pi 3 is. It does not have many extensions for things people today take for granted (no hardware crypto for instance is in practice a massive loss.) So, if you're OK with that, then it will be fine. But most people probably aren't interested in making their expensive laptop perform worse than a 15-year-old device in every way.

snvzz 2y ago

>plus, it seems like DeepCompute sells their own RISC-V laptops which are (probably) more powerful than this thing: Yeah. spacemiT K1 is a new chip, 8core, RVA22 with Vector extension. JH7110 is old in contrast. Was first seen in VisionFive 2 in January 2023. Only 4 cores, slower, and RVA20 without Vector.