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Why Government Unions–Unlike Trade Unions–Corrupt Democracy

28 points by wk_end 2y ago

tehjoker 2y ago
Sounds like a corporate attack on the most unionized sector remaining in the country. Unions are little democracies in a country that is thoroughly undemocratic. The oligarchs would love nothing more than for the entire country to be under their iron grip without question. Ideally, tbqh the entire country should be a "workers' democracy", meaning the people control the country by owning the engines of the economy. That requires very high levels of unionization to even start to pull that off.
- ARandomerDude 2y ago
  > Look at almost any public scandal in recent years—failing schools in Baltimore, police killings in Minneapolis and Memphis—and you will find public supervisors who, under union controls, have lost basic managerial tools. Democracy is supposed to be a process of accountability. But there’s near-zero accountability in American government—between .01 and .02 percent in most jurisdictions. Two out of 95,000 teachers in Illinois were dismissed annually for poor performance over an 18-year study period. In the decade prior to the killing of George Floyd, of the 2600 police complaints in Minneapolis only 12 merited discipline, of which the most severe was a 40-hour suspension.
  - tehjoker 2y ago
    Police unions at least don't count, they need to be smashed. They represent the interests of the traitors to the working class.
- TheCowboy 2y ago
  I'm fine with private sector unions, but public sectors unions don't seem like they tend to always benefit the public. If you were reading this in good faith, the writer of this article lays out a bunch of points that you cannot simply dismiss as "a corporate attack". It's possible to have both private sector unions as a balance to corporate power, and also rebalance the power public sector unions wield. If you want government solutions to benefit the public, then you have to grapple with the dysfunction we're seeing and find a way to resolve it. Also, private sector unions can't simply vote out their bosses (governors, mayors) every few years if they don't get their way, which is a huge power lever.
DangitBobby 2y ago
I'm gonna need to see some evidence that teachers unions are what's wrong with public schools. I didn't find an answer to "why", just a claim that it "is" without support.
- bpodgursky 2y ago
  In any other context, an organization with 0 competitive pressure, in charge of a failing institution, extremely active political lobbying, which vehemently rejects any proposals at performance-based compensation for its members, would be assumed to be the problem; the burden of proof would be to explain how this setup could possibly not cause corruption and incompetence.
  - hiddencost 2y ago
    Ludicrous
  - clipsy 2y ago
    > in charge of a failing institution Schools are ultimately run by elected officials and (non-union) administrators, not teachers' unions.
    - bpodgursky 2y ago
      Functionally, barely.
      - clipsy 2y ago
        Why don't you go ahead and break down what you think teachers' unions control vs what admins and school boards control? I'd love to hear your perspective.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        snapplebobapple 2y ago
zeroCalories 2y ago
People don't like public unions because they are effective unions, it has nothing to do with them being public. There are plenty of professions critical for running society. What if all trucker decided to stop working? Pretty bad, maybe even worse than if all teachers quit, but it doesn't happen because truckers don't have a strong union. If tech workers in Silicon Valley or Seattle started voting as a block with their union they would completely control the areas, but tech workers are not going to form unions.
- snapplebobapple 2y ago
  This is not correct, at least not for me. I don't like public unions for the 3 points this article outlines. I would counter your point about effective and say that that only appear effective (if you define effective at maximizing union member compensation) because they can abuse market power and collude with politicians to pay labor way more than would ever happen if the business they were operating in could be substituted away from by its customers. This is not effective on a society level, it's dead weight loss causing abuse of market power and it should be stopped.
  - zeroCalories 2y ago
    Almost everything you described could be done by a private sector union. They're just worse at it.
    - snapplebobapple 2y ago
      No it can't be, at least not for any serious length of time. If a private union gets away with the above for any length of time it will eventually kill the company because the competing companies will outcompete it. (it could work if the company was a strong oligopoly or monopoly but the correct solution there is to break up the company, not allow the union to collect its piece of the monopoly profits at the expense of deadweight loss to society).
      - zeroCalories 2y ago
etc-hosts 2y ago
Haven't heard from Howard in a while! I can't find the PDF referenced here: https://consumerwatchdog.org/uncategorized/corporate-agenda-behind-philip-howards-common-good-unmasked/ https://consumerwatchdog.org/uncategorized/corporate-agenda-...

28 points by wk_end 2y ago

Sounds like a corporate attack on the most unionized sector remaining in the country. Unions are little democracies in a country that is thoroughly undemocratic. The oligarchs would love nothing more than for the entire country to be under their iron grip without question. Ideally, tbqh the entire country should be a "workers' democracy", meaning the people control the country by owning the engines of the economy. That requires very high levels of unionization to even start to pull that off.

ARandomerDude 2y ago
> Look at almost any public scandal in recent years—failing schools in Baltimore, police killings in Minneapolis and Memphis—and you will find public supervisors who, under union controls, have lost basic managerial tools. Democracy is supposed to be a process of accountability. But there’s near-zero accountability in American government—between .01 and .02 percent in most jurisdictions. Two out of 95,000 teachers in Illinois were dismissed annually for poor performance over an 18-year study period. In the decade prior to the killing of George Floyd, of the 2600 police complaints in Minneapolis only 12 merited discipline, of which the most severe was a 40-hour suspension.
- tehjoker 2y ago
  Police unions at least don't count, they need to be smashed. They represent the interests of the traitors to the working class.
TheCowboy 2y ago
I'm fine with private sector unions, but public sectors unions don't seem like they tend to always benefit the public. If you were reading this in good faith, the writer of this article lays out a bunch of points that you cannot simply dismiss as "a corporate attack". It's possible to have both private sector unions as a balance to corporate power, and also rebalance the power public sector unions wield. If you want government solutions to benefit the public, then you have to grapple with the dysfunction we're seeing and find a way to resolve it. Also, private sector unions can't simply vote out their bosses (governors, mayors) every few years if they don't get their way, which is a huge power lever.

DangitBobby 2y ago

I'm gonna need to see some evidence that teachers unions are what's wrong with public schools. I didn't find an answer to "why", just a claim that it "is" without support.

bpodgursky 2y ago
In any other context, an organization with 0 competitive pressure, in charge of a failing institution, extremely active political lobbying, which vehemently rejects any proposals at performance-based compensation for its members, would be assumed to be the problem; the burden of proof would be to explain how this setup could possibly not cause corruption and incompetence.
- hiddencost 2y ago
  Ludicrous
- clipsy 2y ago
  > in charge of a failing institution Schools are ultimately run by elected officials and (non-union) administrators, not teachers' unions.
  - bpodgursky 2y ago
    Functionally, barely.
    - clipsy 2y ago
      Why don't you go ahead and break down what you think teachers' unions control vs what admins and school boards control? I'd love to hear your perspective.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - snapplebobapple 2y ago

zeroCalories 2y ago

People don't like public unions because they are effective unions, it has nothing to do with them being public. There are plenty of professions critical for running society. What if all trucker decided to stop working? Pretty bad, maybe even worse than if all teachers quit, but it doesn't happen because truckers don't have a strong union. If tech workers in Silicon Valley or Seattle started voting as a block with their union they would completely control the areas, but tech workers are not going to form unions.

snapplebobapple 2y ago
This is not correct, at least not for me. I don't like public unions for the 3 points this article outlines. I would counter your point about effective and say that that only appear effective (if you define effective at maximizing union member compensation) because they can abuse market power and collude with politicians to pay labor way more than would ever happen if the business they were operating in could be substituted away from by its customers. This is not effective on a society level, it's dead weight loss causing abuse of market power and it should be stopped.
- zeroCalories 2y ago
  Almost everything you described could be done by a private sector union. They're just worse at it.
  - snapplebobapple 2y ago
    No it can't be, at least not for any serious length of time. If a private union gets away with the above for any length of time it will eventually kill the company because the competing companies will outcompete it. (it could work if the company was a strong oligopoly or monopoly but the correct solution there is to break up the company, not allow the union to collect its piece of the monopoly profits at the expense of deadweight loss to society).
    - zeroCalories 2y ago

etc-hosts 2y ago

Haven't heard from Howard in a while! I can't find the PDF referenced here: https://consumerwatchdog.org/uncategorized/corporate-agenda-behind-philip-howards-common-good-unmasked/ https://consumerwatchdog.org/uncategorized/corporate-agenda-...