6 ms·

I've always felt like H.264 hit a great sweet spot of complexity vs compression. Newer codecs compress better, but they're increasingly complex in a nonlinear w

I've always felt like H.264 hit a great sweet spot of complexity vs compression. Newer codecs compress better, but they're increasingly complex in a nonlinear way.

TimeBearingDown 2y ago
It also benefits from the extremely optimized encoder x264, which has many easily approachable tunings and speed/compression presets. I’m not sure I’d trust x265 to preserve film grain better than x264 —tune film unless I gave x265 much, much more time as well as pretty similar bitrate.
- LeoPanthera 2y ago
  x265 has a specific "--tune grain" mode specifically for video with a lot of film grain.
  - TimeBearingDown 2y ago
    Apologies, I did miss that. However it seems to still underperform. See this thread, screenshots on the first page. http://forum.doom9.net/showthread.php?p=1947856#post1947856 http://forum.doom9.net/showthread.php?p=1947856#post1947856 I was remembering from this a couple years ago, but focused on the parameters shown and missed that they were derived from --tune grain.
ronsor 2y ago
H.264 will probably never die, especially once all the patents expire in a few years.
- palata 2y ago
  When do they expire?
  - edflsafoiewq 2y ago
    According to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Have_the_patents_for_H.264_MPEG-4_AVC_expired_yet%3F https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Have_the_patents_for_H.264_M..., probably September 2027. There are an additional two patents on that list that expire in 2028 and 2030, but it's not clear if they apply. So probably November 2030 at the latest.
- toast0 2y ago
  H.262 has a long future too. New DVDs and OTA broadcasts (at least for ATSC 1.0) will probably end at some point, but the discs won't go away for a long time, even if disc players are less and less popular.
  - ant6n 2y ago
    …you mean MPEG2?
    - cornstalks 2y ago
      H.262 == MPEG-2 Part 2 Video == ISO/IEC 13818-2. Video codecs are fun because multiple standards bodies publish their own version of the same codec. The ITU-T publishes the H.26x specs, and ISO/IEC publish the other xxxxx-x specs. Pesonally I like the ITU-T because you can get the specs for free from them. ISO/IEC demand $242 for a copy of ISO/IEC 23008-2 (also known as MPEG-H Part 2 or HEVC). But ITU-T will give you H.265's spec (which is the same codec as ISO/IEC 23008-2) for free: https://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.265 https://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.265
- dehrmann 2y ago
  This is true, but I think I settled on either VP8 or VP9 because it's already widely supported, and it's part of webm, so people will maintain support just for backwards compatibility.
SirMaster 2y ago
But with hardware acceleration for both encoding and decoding of HEVC it feels like less of a problem IMO.
- ugjka 2y ago
  Video piracy is pretty much all in HEVC
  - aaron695 2y ago
    [dead]
  - Kirby64 2y ago
    Not really. Only 4k content and anime seems to use HEVC/h265. Anything lower resolution has stuck to h264 for the time being.
    - contingencies 2y ago
      FWIW IIRC yts.mx began offering H.265 on standard resolution films about a year or two back.
      - Kirby64 2y ago
        Yeah, and most people consider stuff off yts to be of poor quality. Encodes are bad and do not meet standards.
    - SirMaster 2y ago
      But anything made in the last few or more years is 4K now and everything I watch is 4K, so all I find is HEVC stuff for everything. Sure, if you are going to go get an older show that's pre 4K/HDR or a movie that isn't on UHD disc yet, then it will be H.264 of course. But if you primarily watch newly made 4K/HDR content, it's all been HEVC for years now.
      - Kirby64 2y ago
Dylan16807 2y ago
Doesn't every state of the art codec do that, including H.264 versus previous? Also I haven't seen charts of decode difficulty, but as far as encoding goes, codecs a generation more advanced can crush H.264 at any particular level of effort. The even newer codecs can probably get there too with more encoder work. https://engineering.fb.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/AV1-Computation-Tradeoffs.jpg https://engineering.fb.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/AV1-Co...
- cornstalks 2y ago
  Generally yes, but I wasn't only talking about compute costs. Mentally grokking H.264's features and inner workings is a lot easier than newer, better codecs.
ksec 2y ago
MPEG 5 EVC Baseline, arguably the improved / refined version of H.264, actually compress better while having the same complexity, Both in terms of mental model and computational cost. Somewhat unfortunate that never became anything.
fostware 2y ago
Twitch... I just had DiVX vs Xvid flashbacks

I've always felt like H.264 hit a great sweet spot of complexity vs compression. Newer codecs compress better, but they're increasingly complex in a nonlinear way.

TimeBearingDown 2y ago

It also benefits from the extremely optimized encoder x264, which has many easily approachable tunings and speed/compression presets. I’m not sure I’d trust x265 to preserve film grain better than x264 —tune film unless I gave x265 much, much more time as well as pretty similar bitrate.

LeoPanthera 2y ago
x265 has a specific "--tune grain" mode specifically for video with a lot of film grain.
- TimeBearingDown 2y ago
  Apologies, I did miss that. However it seems to still underperform. See this thread, screenshots on the first page. http://forum.doom9.net/showthread.php?p=1947856#post1947856 http://forum.doom9.net/showthread.php?p=1947856#post1947856 I was remembering from this a couple years ago, but focused on the parameters shown and missed that they were derived from --tune grain.

ronsor 2y ago

H.264 will probably never die, especially once all the patents expire in a few years.

palata 2y ago
When do they expire?
- edflsafoiewq 2y ago
  According to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Have_the_patents_for_H.264_MPEG-4_AVC_expired_yet%3F https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Have_the_patents_for_H.264_M..., probably September 2027. There are an additional two patents on that list that expire in 2028 and 2030, but it's not clear if they apply. So probably November 2030 at the latest.
toast0 2y ago
H.262 has a long future too. New DVDs and OTA broadcasts (at least for ATSC 1.0) will probably end at some point, but the discs won't go away for a long time, even if disc players are less and less popular.
- ant6n 2y ago
  …you mean MPEG2?
  - cornstalks 2y ago
    H.262 == MPEG-2 Part 2 Video == ISO/IEC 13818-2. Video codecs are fun because multiple standards bodies publish their own version of the same codec. The ITU-T publishes the H.26x specs, and ISO/IEC publish the other xxxxx-x specs. Pesonally I like the ITU-T because you can get the specs for free from them. ISO/IEC demand $242 for a copy of ISO/IEC 23008-2 (also known as MPEG-H Part 2 or HEVC). But ITU-T will give you H.265's spec (which is the same codec as ISO/IEC 23008-2) for free: https://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.265 https://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.265
dehrmann 2y ago
This is true, but I think I settled on either VP8 or VP9 because it's already widely supported, and it's part of webm, so people will maintain support just for backwards compatibility.

SirMaster 2y ago

But with hardware acceleration for both encoding and decoding of HEVC it feels like less of a problem IMO.

ugjka 2y ago
Video piracy is pretty much all in HEVC
- aaron695 2y ago
  [dead]
- Kirby64 2y ago
  Not really. Only 4k content and anime seems to use HEVC/h265. Anything lower resolution has stuck to h264 for the time being.
  - contingencies 2y ago
    FWIW IIRC yts.mx began offering H.265 on standard resolution films about a year or two back.
    - Kirby64 2y ago
      Yeah, and most people consider stuff off yts to be of poor quality. Encodes are bad and do not meet standards.
  - SirMaster 2y ago
    But anything made in the last few or more years is 4K now and everything I watch is 4K, so all I find is HEVC stuff for everything. Sure, if you are going to go get an older show that's pre 4K/HDR or a movie that isn't on UHD disc yet, then it will be H.264 of course. But if you primarily watch newly made 4K/HDR content, it's all been HEVC for years now.
    - Kirby64 2y ago

Dylan16807 2y ago

Doesn't every state of the art codec do that, including H.264 versus previous? Also I haven't seen charts of decode difficulty, but as far as encoding goes, codecs a generation more advanced can crush H.264 at any particular level of effort. The even newer codecs can probably get there too with more encoder work. https://engineering.fb.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/AV1-Computation-Tradeoffs.jpg https://engineering.fb.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/AV1-Co...

cornstalks 2y ago
Generally yes, but I wasn't only talking about compute costs. Mentally grokking H.264's features and inner workings is a lot easier than newer, better codecs.

ksec 2y ago

MPEG 5 EVC Baseline, arguably the improved / refined version of H.264, actually compress better while having the same complexity, Both in terms of mental model and computational cost. Somewhat unfortunate that never became anything.

fostware 2y ago

Twitch... I just had DiVX vs Xvid flashbacks