8 ms·
Well OK, but what about H.265? It's one louder, isn't it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Video_Coding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficie
by jpm_sd 2y ago
Well OK, but what about H.265? It's one louder, isn't it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Video_Coding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Video_Coding
- cornstalks 2y agoI've always felt like H.264 hit a great sweet spot of complexity vs compression. Newer codecs compress better, but they're increasingly complex in a nonlinear way.
- TimeBearingDown 2y agoIt also benefits from the extremely optimized encoder x264, which has many easily approachable tunings and speed/compression presets. I’m not sure I’d trust x265 to preserve film grain better than x264 —tune film unless I gave x265 much, much more time as well as pretty similar bitrate.
- LeoPanthera 2y agox265 has a specific "--tune grain" mode specifically for video with a lot of film grain.
- TimeBearingDown 2y agoApologies, I did miss that. However it seems to still underperform. See this thread, screenshots on the first page. http://forum.doom9.net/showthread.php?p=1947856#post1947856 http://forum.doom9.net/showthread.php?p=1947856#post1947856 I was remembering from this a couple years ago, but focused on the parameters shown and missed that they were derived from --tune grain.
- ronsor 2y agoH.264 will probably never die, especially once all the patents expire in a few years.
- palata 2y agoWhen do they expire?
- edflsafoiewq 2y agoAccording to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Have_the_patents_for_H.264_MPEG-4_AVC_expired_yet%3F https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Have_the_patents_for_H.264_M..., probably September 2027. There are an additional two patents on that list that expire in 2028 and 2030, but it's not clear if they apply. So probably November 2030 at the latest.
- toast0 2y agoH.262 has a long future too. New DVDs and OTA broadcasts (at least for ATSC 1.0) will probably end at some point, but the discs won't go away for a long time, even if disc players are less and less popular.
- ant6n 2y ago…you mean MPEG2?
- cornstalks 2y agoH.262 == MPEG-2 Part 2 Video == ISO/IEC 13818-2. Video codecs are fun because multiple standards bodies publish their own version of the same codec. The ITU-T publishes the H.26x specs, and ISO/IEC publish the other xxxxx-x specs. Pesonally I like the ITU-T because you can get the specs for free from them. ISO/IEC demand $242 for a copy of ISO/IEC 23008-2 (also known as MPEG-H Part 2 or HEVC). But ITU-T will give you H.265's spec (which is the same codec as ISO/IEC 23008-2) for free: https://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.265 https://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.265
- dehrmann 2y agoThis is true, but I think I settled on either VP8 or VP9 because it's already widely supported, and it's part of webm, so people will maintain support just for backwards compatibility.
- SirMaster 2y agoBut with hardware acceleration for both encoding and decoding of HEVC it feels like less of a problem IMO.
- ugjka 2y agoVideo piracy is pretty much all in HEVC
- aaron695 2y ago[dead]
- Kirby64 2y agoNot really. Only 4k content and anime seems to use HEVC/h265. Anything lower resolution has stuck to h264 for the time being.
- contingencies 2y agoFWIW IIRC yts.mx began offering H.265 on standard resolution films about a year or two back.
- Kirby64 2y agoYeah, and most people consider stuff off yts to be of poor quality. Encodes are bad and do not meet standards.
- SirMaster 2y agoBut anything made in the last few or more years is 4K now and everything I watch is 4K, so all I find is HEVC stuff for everything. Sure, if you are going to go get an older show that's pre 4K/HDR or a movie that isn't on UHD disc yet, then it will be H.264 of course. But if you primarily watch newly made 4K/HDR content, it's all been HEVC for years now.
- Kirby64 2y ago
- Dylan16807 2y agoDoesn't every state of the art codec do that, including H.264 versus previous? Also I haven't seen charts of decode difficulty, but as far as encoding goes, codecs a generation more advanced can crush H.264 at any particular level of effort. The even newer codecs can probably get there too with more encoder work. https://engineering.fb.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/AV1-Computation-Tradeoffs.jpg https://engineering.fb.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/AV1-Co...
- cornstalks 2y agoGenerally yes, but I wasn't only talking about compute costs. Mentally grokking H.264's features and inner workings is a lot easier than newer, better codecs.
- ksec 2y agoMPEG 5 EVC Baseline, arguably the improved / refined version of H.264, actually compress better while having the same complexity, Both in terms of mental model and computational cost. Somewhat unfortunate that never became anything.
- fostware 2y agoTwitch... I just had DiVX vs Xvid flashbacks
- SirMaster 2y agoWhat about VVC (H.266)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Versatile_Video_Coding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Versatile_Video_Coding
- adzm 2y agoVVC has a lot of the same issues that plagued HEVC adoption. There really isn't much reason to not use AV1 if you want the best codec currently.
- jl6 2y agoVVC is a generational improvement in compression ratio over AV1, which might make it the best for a lot of applications. Too bad it will probably languish in patent licensing hell.
- Dylan16807 2y ago> VVC is a generational improvement in compression ratio over AV1 That's probably true, but do you know where I could find a comparison that shows a variety of speed settings for both codecs? And ideally discusses how fast VVC is expected to encode once everything is more finalized. It's easy enough to run everything at default speed but then the results are almost meaningless.
- SirMaster 2y agoIt's always really slow at the start, but once hardware acceleration happens it becomes much less of a problem. Or if you are just an end user consuming streaming video content, then you only care that your player can decode it which I don't think will be any sort of problem if things play out like they did for HEVC vs VP9. If all the streaming services choose VVC over AV1, then all the player companies will put hardware decoders in their SoC.
- jacobgorm 2y agoUnless you need hardware acceleration. I’ve managed to implement live h265 encode and decode with Directx12 on Windows on Intel and Nvidia, but the driver crashes on AMD and they seem uninterested in fixing it, so there I have to fallback to h264.
- asveikau 2y agoMaybe I need to change some options, but I find whatever encoder I get when I ask ffmpeg to encode h265 takes a very long time. Then decoding 4k h265 is very slow on most of my PCs. It sure gets the file size down though.
- adzm 2y agoI really like HEVC/h265. It's pretty much on par with VP9. but licensing trouble has made it difficult to get adopted everywhere even now. VVC/h266 seems to be having the same issues; AV1 is pretty much just as good and already seeing much more adoption.
- radicality 2y agoWhat’s the tldr of the licensing problems? I’ve started reading this article which list the various H.26x proposals - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Coding_Experts_Group https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Coding_Experts_Group Seems like the group that comes with these is eventually part of the UN ? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Telecommunication_Union https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Telecommunicat... Is it because they come with the codecs “jointly” with the MPEG organization, which is for profit? If the group is part of a standards organization that’s part of the UN, I feel like they should come up with non-patent-encumbered “recommendations”.
- peutetre 2y ago> What’s the tldr of the licensing problems? There are multiple patent pools for H.265 wanting to be paid licensing fees (MPEG LA, HEVC Advance, Velos Media). HEVC Advance and Velos Media even want content distribution licensing fees. And there are patent holders not in any pool who also want to be paid (Technicolor, Motorola, Nokia, etc.). It's a mess.
- ksec 2y ago>HEVC Advance and Velos Media even want content distribution licensing fees. That is not correct. Unless you meant they once "suggested" to ask for content distribution licensing.
- peutetre 2y agoIt's correct. It's category 4: https://accessadvance.com/topic-what-do-we-license/ https://accessadvance.com/topic-what-do-we-license/
- TacticalCoder 2y ago> Well OK, but what about H.265? It's one louder, isn't it? I had some old, gigantic, video footage (in a variety of old, inefficient, formats at a super high quality). So I did some testing and, well, ended up re-encoding/transcoding everything to H.265. It makes for much smaller files than H.264. The standard is also ten years younger than H.264 (2013 for H.265 vs 2003 for H.264).
- Melatonic 2y agoYears ago I was photographing a party in silicon valley (had just graduated college and was taking any job I could get). I take a nice photo of a couple and the wife looks at me and says " You know my husband invented H264? Do you know what that is?". Ended up having a long conversation with the husband (the engineer) and he hinted many times that they were working currently on something even better. Years later now of course we have H265. Everytime I play something in H264 or H265 I think of that moment and how much work that guy and his colleagues must have put into coding such a widely used codec (and how proud his wife was!)
- drmpeg 2y agoShe should say "helped to invent". Video codec standard development is most definitely a group effort.
- illusive4080 2y agoYou worked on MPEG?
- drmpeg 2y agoYes, from 1993 until I retired in 2011. I worked at C-Cube Microsystems and LSI Logic. In 1993-1994 at C-Cube, I helped develop the first real-time MPEG-1 encoder. The rest of the team was busy developing the 704x480 resolution encoder for the roll-out of DirecTV, so I ended up taking sole responsibility for the MPEG-1 product and brought it to market. It's thought that this encoder authored much of the content for China VCD. One notable thing I remember was watching the OJ Simpson chase on a test DirecTV receiver in the C-Cube lab (the same day that DirecTV went live). Here's a picture of the C-Cube chip. It took 12 of these running in parallel to encode 704x480 MPEG-2. https://www.w6rz.net/cl4010.png https://www.w6rz.net/cl4010.png
- rebeccaskinner 2y agoI do a lot of video compression for hobby projects, and I stick with h264 for the most part because h265 encoding requires far too much extra compute relative to the space savings. I can spend an hour compressing a file down to 1gb with h264, or I can spend 12 hours compressing the same file to 850mb with h265. Depending on the use-case, I might still need the h264 version anyway since it's far more widely supported by clients. If I had a data center worth of compute to throw at encoding, or I were running a streaming service where the extra 150mb per video started to add up, then I'd definitely on-board with h265 but it's really hard to justify for a lot of practical use-cases.
- radicality 2y agoWhat about when you’re recording (say your iPhone / android / standalone camera) - are you choosing h264 or h265 (or something else like an intra-frame only codec for easier editing).
- rebeccaskinner 2y agoMost of what I do is working with pre-recorded video, but for projects where I'm doing recording I tend to use h.264 since I don't have a lot of devices that support h.265 anyway, and picking one format with broad compatibility is generally more important to me than the efficiency gains I'd get using h.265 when I could.
- Osiris 2y agoIs GPU accelerated encoding not an option?
- rebeccaskinner 2y agoI haven't actually done the comparison myself, but the common refrain is that the quality of the video suffers when you use GPU accelerated encoding. That's not a tradeoff I want to make, so I've just stuck with CPU encoding.
- 2y ago
- ezoe 2y agoHEVC and AV1 is twice more magic. It keep the same quality to human eyes while reducing the bitrate by 50%. HEVC is patent encumbered. Users who use old hardware don't have hardware decoder. So both requires more time to be adopted.