12 ms·

Taking away iPhone made daughter a better person

178 points by hackerbeat 2y ago

netik 2y ago
Articles like these which blame technology as the great evil, with a “what about the children! think of the children!” bent, are biased and troubling. The article starts by blaming then iPhone and social media and goes on to show how the child is a victim of poor parenting and divorce. Maybe the child’s depression, anxiety, and longing for acceptance comes straight out of the broken home and not social media.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
  It is a valid question to ask. Natural response would be to test whether rates of depression, anxiety and lack of belonging were reported lower or higher for previous cohorts. My take is less nuanced, because I already see some addiction in my kid to screens ( I would blame my wife, but I am to blame as well ), which prompted me to crack down on it. I think there is a lot of blame to share, but I don't think parents are more to blame than a corporation with nation-state level of resources to overcome objections, force trends and so on.
- sarchertech 2y ago
  Maybe. But according to the author, she’s doing better without the phone. From what I remember of middle school, having constant 24/7 contact with my classmates would have been detrimental, so I buy it.
- yedava 2y ago
  The kid's mental health improved when she gave up her phone. So there is that and also some research that justifies the causation [1]. [1] https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/social-media-mental-illness-epidemic https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/social-media-mental-ill...
- pknomad 2y ago
  Why do you find it troubling? The article doesn't claim that poor parenting and divorce doesn't have negative effects on a child. It claims that social media, amplified by technology, has had negative effects on his/her child. Technology is a double edged sword and good parenting is supposed to shield predatory action by social media companies. I think this quotation captures the sentiment the best: "She assessed her worth within a system where she was simultaneously attention-addicted and attention-starved. She’d internalized an algorithm where provocative content wins"
  - williamtrask 2y ago
    Note: netik’s bio indicates they used to work at Twitter.
    - pknomad 2y ago
      that'll do it. Thanks william
- louwrentius 2y ago
  That was exactly my impression
- owisd 2y ago
  Unlike social media/smartphone usage, divorce rates don't suddenly spike in 2010 to match the spike in childhood mental health problems. Despite social media companies best efforts, there is no reasonable alternative hypothesis for what happened globally in 2010 to cause the problem.
  - bryan_w 2y ago
    There are lies, damned lies, and statistics: https://www.techdirt.com/2022/07/21/blaming-social-media-for-suicide-is-taking-the-easy-and-likely-wrong-way-out/ https://www.techdirt.com/2022/07/21/blaming-social-media-for...
mikemitchelldev 2y ago
It's really amazing what I don't know not being a parent...
peepeepoopoo76 2y ago
[flagged]
- mkl 2y ago
  The person submitting puts in the title. Sometimes they mess it up, sometimes they break the rules and editorialise. No ML is needed.
  - peepeepoopoo76 2y ago
    [flagged]
sahila 2y ago
Sometimes I wish we wouldn't limit these studies / conclusions to just children. Certainly children are more susceptible and lack greater control than adults but the negatives of high phone usage and social media propagates throughout society and adults. Of course whereas a parent can take away their daughter's phones, who's to take away ours?
- josefresco 2y ago
  My teens often tell me about how teachers (really just one teacher) in their school decry the usage of smartphones. I've told them repeatedly that the next time a teacher rants about "screen time" ask to see their iOS screen time numbers. Unfortunately (and smartly) they aren't interested in poking their teacher in the eye.
bigyikes 2y ago
I’m not sure I’ve seen anyone disagree with the premise that phone and social media addiction is bad for kids (and probably adults too), and yet we still find ourselves in this position. What are we to do? Banning phone use on an individual basis is a recipe for social suicide. Some kind of collective action is needed. Legislation against phone use for minors is one option, but I wouldn’t expect it to receive widespread support. Banning social media for minors might be workable, but it wouldn’t fully resolve the issue.
- hot_gril 2y ago
  It's not social suicide for a kid or teen not to have a smartphone (or to limit usage), so it's solvable individually.
  - jader201 2y ago
    Curious, do you have teens? Most people saying things like this don't, but if you do, curious if you've tried this and it works/ed out for you?
    - hot_gril 2y ago
      It worked when I was a teen (not very long ago) and nearly everyone else had smartphones. I think the people who consider it social suicide are unconvinced that smartphones are a problem to begin with, which like I said is fine if they want that.
      - bluSCALE4 2y ago
        Were you popular? I feel like social dynamics must play a role. I mean I'm pretty sure blue vs green bubbles are a big deal in some circles let alone social media.
        hot_gril 2y ago
        Moderately, or at least, not socially dead. Only played video games on weekends, including a Minecraft server with friends, which in hindsight still became a bit of an addiction I would've been better without. I was popular in college, and I did have a phone then but barely used it. Having a Facebook account mattered in college purely for class groups, events, and group chats where people coordinated stuff. One thing I don't know is what replaced that (if anything). So basically, having a PC at home was more than enough.
louwrentius 2y ago
Dear Chat-GPT, please write an article in the style of an abusive narcissistic parent with no writing skills. Make sure she lets shine through that her child distrusts her so much that she lies and keeps secrets. The relationship between parent and child has broken down, and the child is not to blame. Let the reader realize in not so subtle ways that the phone isn’t the actual issue, and let them realize the author is an unreliable narrator.
- radiojosh 2y ago
  As soon as the author talked about the zebra stripe scars on the daughter's arm, I knew it wasn't about just the phone. As soon as the author said that their daughter went from Pink Floyd to stereotypical duck lips and peace signs, I decided they were completely full of it.
  - louwrentius 2y ago
    I agree 100%
jrflowers 2y ago
> my daughter is among the first generation of 10-to-14-year-olds active on social media This makes sense if her daughter is presently 25 years old
- sarchertech 2y ago
  I think the author is talking about scale. There were definitely kids with social medial accounts 15 years ago. But very few of them had personal smart phones that they could use in bed at 3am.
- _cenw 2y ago
  I'm 30 and I was on social media, just with school internet and not a smartphone.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- kadushka 2y ago
  I clearly remember 12 year olds who were active on LiveJournal and a couple other less known social networking sites back in 2002-2003. The only difference it was done via a desktop computer rather than an iPhone.
  - Brybry 2y ago
    Yep, millennial teenagers in my area were all over LiveJournal/Myspace/Xanga in the early aughts. And if one considers messengers like ICQ/AIM (or even IRC) as a form of social media then teenagers were commonly (in my area) using social media in the late 90s.
- cjpearson 2y ago
  Most definitions of Generation Z would include both those who are presently 25 and 14 years old.
  - jrflowers 2y ago
    This is true so long as you consider Gen Alpha a subset of Gen Z
trey-jones 2y ago
Well, I didn't read the whole article, but I can confirm that I like my daughter (14) better once her allocated phone time is up each day. She only just got the phone 6 months ago, and we limit screen time pretty severely with Google Family Link, so we think we're doing ok. We have discussed trimming the screen time down even more, since school finished up. Also, she's not doing any social media at all. Still, kids are more fun when they aren't staring at a screen (in my opinion and possibly contrary to what many believe). I think this is obvious to any parent, right? Too much screen time bad. I know it's bad for me as well, though my current bias is heavily against technology in general - I will admit that.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- talldatethrow 2y ago
  If she's not on social media, what is she even doing online these days? Watching YouTube? Reading blogs about favorite subjects? YouTube is basically as bad as any social media IMO since it has an endless stream of stimulus that's artificially easy to consume.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    There should be a way of limiting your kids' YouTube viewing to only certain channels, so they can watch Kurzgesagt and music instruction videos (for instance), but not all the other crap. Perhaps a third-party app could offer this feature for parents.
  - trey-jones 2y ago
    Youtube has been a problem and we have had many discussions about what's worth her time and what definitely isn't. We limit the app specifically to 1 hr. per day, and just kinda keep tabs on what she's watching and talk to her about it. Putting faith in any app to curate or restrict content in Youtube and the like; for this one I think doing the human thing of talking to her regularly and even making it clear that we will be checking out what she's doing is preferable.
cjk2 2y ago
My kids are better for their iPhones. They have no access to social media and policies in place to make sure they are tools and not sources of entertainment and addiction. Absolutes on either end of the spectrum just lead to extremism which helps no one. This headline (the article one and the HN summary) are just extremism via reductionism. You can reduce this entire thing to a point but it deprives them of their instinctive tool using and building mentality.
- tmpz22 2y ago
  Not being on Social Media at < 14 is extremism? The same verb used to describe terrorists?
  - cjk2 2y ago
    No that’s basically the law. What is extremism is depriving them of what is an essential tool in these times. Teach don’t preach.
    - averageRoyalty 2y ago
      Can you name anything that makes a smartphone essential - not preferable or convenient, but essential as you said? I hear this argument a lot, but I'm yet to hear an essential purpose they hold for anyone.
      - cjk2 2y ago
        Well my youngest (13 year old) daughter uses it for Google classroom scheduling at school, transport status (TFL), payments, online banking, checking weather, taking photos and editing them, tracking her running and cycling, listening to music etc... While not essential for any of these, it's a tool which you can leverage for all of these to improve things. Edit: not to mention the iPad+apple pencil which is just another way of creating art...
        averageRoyalty 2y ago
wstone 2y ago
Woah! You were texting whilst driving?!
- CharlesW 2y ago
  I'm curious about the mom's screen time metrics, and whether she considered giving up her own iPhone.
dcdevito 2y ago
[dead]
AI_beffr 2y ago
the effect of hyperconnection is especially bad for girls. they can keep leaning into it until they fall flat on their faces. boys will tend to not engage with it to that extent even if available. its interesting that human society has been a wild and ill-advised experiment every since the introduction of agriculture. we are all going to eat nothing but carbohydrates and sit around all day, whereas yesterday we ate mostly animals and spent all of our time running around from place to place. since the start, insane and dangerous experiments have been the norm. if we choose to reject the madness, reject AI namely, it will be the first time in history. an experiment in and of itself.
yedava 2y ago
If all the kids in the peer group have no cell phones, solving the mental health crisis would be easy. As long as some kids have access, the others will feel like they are being deprived of something fundamental, will resent their parents and will look for any opportunity to get on social media. A technological solution is to have complete control over the computing devices we "own". But that goes against the interests of trillion dollar corporations and so we can't have that. Like I was figuring out if there is a way to let my kid use Youtube with a select set of channels, but no. Youtube needs to keep showing suggestions on what to watch next. I would gladly pay for the ability to control what content my kid sees, but Youtube stands to make more profit by getting the kid addicted to their app.
- walterbell 2y ago
  Apple iOS 18 Safari is going to allow "AI" customization of any website, that might allow removal of the recommendations panel. Another option might be a custom Youtube frontend or browser extension for filtering.
- somethingreen 2y ago
  I don't know from where came this idea that not having a certain thing will inevitably ruin child's relationship with the parent and cause a collapse of at least some part of their life, but if it was implanted - someone somewhere should have a pure gold Marketer of The Century award on their table. Also, install Unhook Youtube - it allows reducing YT to pretty much just subscriptions and watch later.
- armchairhacker 2y ago
  It's not just that. Some kids live in unsafe or car-centric areas, with parents who are uncaring or unable to take them to places where they can socialize in-person. Every kid goes to school, but maybe the kids at school bully them, or maybe the school is too focused on coursework and doesn't dedicate enough time for socialization, or maybe the kid is home-schooled. Especially if a ban were enacted today, some kids spent most of their life on social media, so they might have trouble adapting and socializing in-person. Personally, I think the most likely and best solution is better social media. Currently, social media is regulated to shield kids from explicit content and predators, but it should also be regulated to shield them from negativity and mindless engagement, and to promote positivity and healthy behaviors (including not spending too much time on it). Recommendation algorithms for kids should be strictly controlled by the government; keep in mind that the government already strictly controls what kids learn in school, and it doesn't have to outright ban "non-explicit harmful" content, just down-weight it enough that kids don't find it without intentionally looking. Plus, a social media with healthier recommendations and discourse may become popular for adults as well, even though they wouldn't be locked into this version like minors (I can imagine a system that requires consent like adult ID but then lets adults stay anonymous, which could be bypassed by dedicated minors, but most wouldn't care enough to do so).
extr 2y ago
IMO the problem with phones for teens it that they have nothing to use them for except socialization. Adult phone addiction is a problem but phones are also tools for adults. Answering emails, calling the doctor's office, checking your credit card statement, etc. Teens have literally no use for phones except for communication/socialization. They also have abundant free time. One plan I've been thinking about for my own kid (currently 9mo old) is he's allowed to have a phone as long as he also has a job (or suitable job-like activity appropriate for a teen).
- mid-kid 2y ago
  I would disagree. While I was a bit of an outlier and would use my phone primarily for tinkering, I would also use it to go down rabbit holes on wikipedia, play video games, read books and watch shows. Phones are glorified consumption devices, at the end of the day.
- Spivak 2y ago
  > Teens have literally no use for phones except for communication/socialization. What do you think they're supposed to be using them for if not that? Socialization is the point. I was every bit the teenage girl annoyingly on her phone constantly but I was constantly talking to my friends / boyfriend. So much of being a teenager is being dragged places you don't want to go and being forced to be around adults you don't care about talking about insurance or escrow or whatever. But online was a place that was mine, where my friends were.
  - extr 2y ago
    Nothing, my point is that they don't need them. You can physically socialize.
- hammyhavoc 2y ago
  Obviously someone doesn't remember the Game Boy, iPod, Walkman, pocket TVs, camcorders, Polaroids, digital cameras et al. Just because modernity has social nonsense baked into it by default doesn't mean that they were social experiences to begin with. Entertainment, utility and creativity were valued over social e-peen points once upon a time. Shocking, I know. Adding this kind of friction to be able to communicate with family and peers is a recipe for a teenage dropout that's more focused on chump change just to have a phone than further education. I left school at sixteen, I was never given pocket money. You bet having a girlfriend, cool clothes, a phone, an iPod and video games was more important to me than anything my dad had to say, especially when what we were being taught was nothing I had any interest in. The final straw was needing a new computer to run Boinx to make stop-motion animations (my hobby at the time before CG movies really took off). Having the things you want and need is a big deal to teenage brain, especially when they're attainable without much effort and make you happy. If a parent isn't giving resources or nurturing interests and is instead adding friction to something a teen can actually have for themselves, that parent is losing all leverage over a teenager because they can't threaten to take away pocket money and thus their source of "cool" and pleasure in life. Kids should focus on their studies if their parents can facilitate them being able to do so. "I wouldn't allow my kids to leave school at sixteen", in the UK at the time, they were legally adults, but also didn't stop plenty of kids dropping out at fourteen to work and get the things their parents weren't giving them. Neither parent wanted me to leave, but neither parent was relevant in any way anymore to me, they were just obstacles between me and my teenage bullshit.
swayvil 2y ago
Attention control seems to be a top cultivative practice. What you put your attention on, how long, etc. Good practice delivers health, sensitivity, kindness. Bad delivers bad health, bad behavior. Pleasure, habit and popularity is a bad guide here. You might actually have to fight for your sanity.
- TillE 2y ago
  That's always what I think when I see adults complaining that they hate their phone. It's just a portable computer, you control how and when you interact with it.
  - swayvil 2y ago
    Well, "control" is a fuzzy zone. There's temptation, confusion, marketing... I mean, you choose which direction to swim but there's also a current to contend with. It can be a fight.
  - falsaberN1 2y ago
    Heh, the only reason I complain about my phone is because I can't do enough things with it. Or at least not comfortably (and without requiring root, which is easier said than done depending on model). It just annoys me how bad the UX is compared to a proper computer with a keyboard and window management. I was once hospitalized and unable to move, with only my phone to pass time, and the experience was SO frustrating! I don't use my phone a lot, all I got for entertainment is Retroarch, Lichess and a generic sudoku app I got from F-Droid, so obviously my opinion is highly subjective, but it feels like having a supercomputer that can only run MSDOS. One thing at a time in fullscreen with maybe a few passive resident processes. I know some phones let you split things in two or so, but not all of them and the implementation is never flawless or limits what apps can be split. If you mean hating the phone as a social thing, I am a bit self-conscious about being seen using it too much or taking it out in front of someone unless warranted. I wouldn't do stuff like crossing the street or driving with my eyes glued to it. But that's a people problem and not a phone problem, I think.
IshKebab 2y ago
I wonder if there's a market for phones whose software can only do a few things. I mean: maps, phone, whatsapp. Obviously in theory stock Android can do that but they don't really take child locks seriously because they have the wrong threat model for it - they think "it only has to be securish because most children aren't going to be smart enough to circumvent it and it's not serious if they do anyway", instead of "it has to be actually secure because you only need one smart child out of thousands to figure out a bypass and it is serious because it affects peoples lives". So maybe you could have an Android distro where it literally white-lists a few apps and servers at the OS level.
- turboat 2y ago
  Yes, the market exists and there are several competitors. I've looked at https://sunbeamwireless.com https://sunbeamwireless.com, which runs their Android variant, BasicOS. Haven't purchased yet though. Light Phone is similar. Gabb and Pinwheel sell phones oriented at kids, and both have OSes based on Android. Unfortunately, as you say stock Android as well as iOS don't make effective locks. What they offer is passable for parents managing their kids' phones, although in practice kids often find ways to bypass. It's very difficult for an adult who wants to self-regulate. There are some hacks you can do, like MDM, but it's not at all straightforward. I'm looking to connect with people about this topic. In fact I want a business partner, although I'm also interested in people who just have input.
walterbell 2y ago
Has anyone made a rate-limited phone UX? Not just measuring screen time, but pre-agreed quotas, e.g. N mins per hour during specific time periods or locations, for the entire phone, specific apps, and/or contact groups.
- adolph 2y ago
  iOS parent controls handle this pretty ok. The time limits can be by application class (which can be customized) or individually. The controls are linked to their Apple ID, so the same permissions flow across devices: tablet, phone, watch (probably desktop too?). The child can request "more time" on an app and an alert pops up on the parents' devices (which can be obnoxious until some boundaries are set). The communication/contacts control strikes a reasonable balance too. I think the cell enabled watch offers better mobile function than carrying around a full phone and its baggage of capability.
  - ricardobeat 2y ago
    We went the cell enabled watch route and it’s not there yet. Calling and location often don’t work, even though there is perfect mobile signal. Updates must be managed from a phone, so you need one anyway. Maps are not easy to use, you can’t do simple stuff like a google search or look up train times.
    - adolph 2y ago
      Yeah, I have a wish that Apple would have been braver and pushed the watch at expense of the phone like they pushed the phone past the iPod. Maybe the watch form factor won't mature until a good enough LLM is squeezed into a future more capable watch processor. Remember the days when iPhone updates had to be managed from a desktop and cell data wasn't so great? I have an appreciation for the format even if I'm not a user of it.
christkv 2y ago
Our solution has been feature flip phones and encouraging the kids to call their friends to talk instead.
nonrandomstring 2y ago
It's not just kids. I'm literally watching dozens of relationships of people I know IRL breaking down... depressed and angry teenagers fighting with parents, couples divorcing, jealousy and suspicion tearing friendships apart. It's fucked up. Smartphones and social media are at right at the heart of it. These are dark times to live through and I hope to see an age when all of this is repaired and behind us, and we can find a kinder, more mature and saner use for technology.
HenryBemis 2y ago
Every time a parent asks me for suggestions (and they do.. a lot!) on "how can I stay in touch with my kid but not give him/her a smartphone", I suggest they switch to Apple ecosystem and get some cheap second-hand iPhone for the parent(s), and an second-hand Apple Watch 4 (or later) that has LTE and GPS. With this they can add an e-sim to the watch with unlimited minutes, and they can stay in touch with their kids 24/7, track their location, etc. Just remember to ALWAYS charge the watch when the kids get home. I also suggest that they lock-down the settings of the kids' watch (the customisation/locking-down is very good) just add a few contacts (papa, mama, sis/bro) and that's it. Nobody else can call them, and they cannot call anyone else (except emergency services). ps: I personally run on Android. I absolutely despise and I dropped every Apple-thing I had on the battery-gate scandal)
- ricardobeat 2y ago
  Have you had experience with that yourself? We have apple watches with mobile service and reliability has been quite poor. Location is usually severely delayed, or it looks like our kid is going for a swim (we live near water). It sounded like a great plan, but I’d definitely not recommend it (yet).
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
iamawacko 2y ago
The daughter was vaping. I'm not entirely clear, how did taking away a phone stop that? And I know a large number of teens that are honor role, on sports teams, and gesticulate, all while having a phone and actively use social media. I also know teens with depression, insomnia, and poor grades, even though they don't have a phone or social media. That's not to say phones aren't harmful, but clearly it's not everything.
- iamawacko 2y ago
  And I say this as a person who's phone says "Today: 0 minutes" and "Daily average screen time: 20 m" (almost all 2FA and maps)
- tstrimple 2y ago
  It's a convenient scapegoat though, and the "solutions" all require less actual parenting so I guess that can be appealing. > "It's literally impossible for me to influence my child's behavior, so we must enact legislation to ensure no kids can use these evil devices!"
Tade0 2y ago
Harmful effects of social media notwithstanding, it's not just about the phones. Reaching for your phone is an example of what psychologists refer to as avoidance behaviours. We look at screens so that we don't have to deal with difficult thoughts and emotions. Sure, without a phone that person had no other choice but to face whatever they've been avoiding. But more often than not leaving someone to their own devices when they clearly can't cope with the situation by themselves makes them look for a different source of distraction that in turn will make you wish they were "just" addicted to social media. A person doing well mentally has no need to avoid anything. The right thing to do is help them get there, not play whack-a-mole with their coping mechanisms.
- coolbreezetft24 2y ago
  This is me with my dog. Whenever I'm stressed out from life I can always escape to my bichon
  - iamthemonster 2y ago
    A bichon is not a dog, it is a human baby with extra floof.
- turboat 2y ago
  Do you have any suggestions on how to help people achieve and maintain good mental health? It's true that addiction is ultimately a psychological problem. It's true that people engage in addictive behaviors as a coping mechanism to avoid difficult emotions. It's also true that the Internet has enabled a lot of deliberately addictive content. Phones keep that content constantly at hand. And it's difficult to avoid having a phone since they also provide utilities. I'd like to live in a world where everyone had such great mental wellness that they were impervious to the temptations of their phones. What are some serious tactics to make that happen?
  - PlunderBunny 2y ago
    At the risk of it coming across like I’m boasting or virtue signalling (whatever that means), what keeps me going is the thought that I can use my time and money to help other people. Simple stuff like donating to charities and planting trees. For parents, this could take the form of doubling a child’s pocket money/allowance on the condition that half of it is donated to charities - encourage the child to research charities and talk about them. (The latter isn’t an original idea - I originally read about it in the form of tripling the pocket money with 1/3 to keep, 1/3 for charity, and 1/3 to invest. If your kid has to do some chores to get their pocket money, then this sets them up with a pattern for a good life (work, then give and save).
hunter-gatherer 2y ago
I'm always curious to understand how so many people didn't know phones and social media would be bad. I remember having "prohoetic" discussions about all this in 2008 with a bunch of privates in the Army. How people ever thought how the internet was evolving in the early 2000s was going to be only amazing has always baffled me.
KaiserPro 2y ago
So I was one of the first generation to have access to instant messaging when I was less than 11. (I'm pushing 40) I am despite what the media says, a digital native. that being said, I don't think kids should be on social media. By that I mean instagram/tiktok/snapchat I have been talking to my kids (10/7) about "the internet". The normal stuff: no real names, no photos, no giving away details to anyone. They have a shared iPad, but it has time limits, and it stays in the living room. and as an adult leader for a "uniformed organisation" for kids, one of the badges is about staying safe online. Some of the shit that I hear from them leaves me a bit worried. Roblox is a fucking nest of paedophiles. Instgram isn't a place for kids, and neither is youtube. But, the biggest issue, apart from google and facebook not having any commercial incentive to stop kids from using their stuff: is parents not talking to their kids to find out whats happening. Who are they talking to? How long are they spending online? What are they watching? You as a parent have to be involved. You can't let your kid wander alone on the internet. You need to set barriers. You don't need to be a helicopter, but you do need to take an interest. You also need to have a strong fucking password to stop the kids getting round the parental controls.
- averageRoyalty 2y ago
  > The normal stuff: no real names, no photos, no giving away details to anyone. For the record, none of this has been "normal" for 15+ years. Sharing personal details - either publicly on social media or "privately" online is absolutely normal now.
  - NoNoisle 2y ago
    I wish it would still be normal
- hammyhavoc 2y ago
  Roblox or any other specific thing isn't any different than anything else in terms of risk. Where there are humans, there are problems. Where there are humans, there is crime. Where there are humans, there are pedophiles. The physical world is the same story. After being sexually abused repeatedly as a kid and teen, both at school and online, don't get complacent in thinking background checks mean teachers aren't pedophiles—background checks and lists only tell you who has been caught so far. Digital grooming is nasty, but the prioritized danger is anyone physically close. Passwords aren't stopping teenage determination and they never have, not now devices are cheap and easy to come by, and lots of peers have drawers full of unwanted yesteryear stuff. Twenty years ago, we were using proxies, hacking WiFi APs, giving people old devices and even buying each other phone credit.
drewcoo 2y ago
The thing about phones is that they make bad parenting obvious. And that's apparently terrifying to a lot of adults. Luckily for us, we can just blame tech and sidestep any responsibility.
1vuio0pswjnm7 2y ago
"I found answers via my sister in Johann Hari's book Stolen Focus, which explores how and why our attention is collapsing: "The phones we have, and the programs that run on them, were deliberately designed by the smartest people in the world to maximally grab and maximally hold our attention."" If only they were designed by "the smartest people in the world". This is a journalistic trope. They were designed by people with social problems not to help address their problems but to feed an unhealthy addiction to computers as an escape.
musicale 2y ago
Taking away the iPhone may have had some benefits, but it did not make anyone a better person.
- justinclift 2y ago
  But it sounds like it did? Why are you thinking it didn't, or are you meaning it from a different angle of some sort?
  - musicale 2y ago
    Having a phone - and being depressed, etc. - doesn't make you any less of a good person. I think what was intended was "happier, healthier" person.
    - justinclift 2y ago
      Ahhh. Sure, the phone and depression themselves aren't really related to the good/bad/(etc) metric. The behaviours the daughter was exhibiting though (lying, desperate attention seeking, etc) are probably why the article author frames it that way.
      - musicale 2y ago
        The barrel may be rotten, but the apple is not.
        justinclift 2y ago
        It'd be great if that's how things worked. ;)
vladcodes 2y ago
First I read: “Taking away Advanced Dungeons and Dragons made my daughter a better person”

178 points by hackerbeat 2y ago

Articles like these which blame technology as the great evil, with a “what about the children! think of the children!” bent, are biased and troubling. The article starts by blaming then iPhone and social media and goes on to show how the child is a victim of poor parenting and divorce. Maybe the child’s depression, anxiety, and longing for acceptance comes straight out of the broken home and not social media.

A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
It is a valid question to ask. Natural response would be to test whether rates of depression, anxiety and lack of belonging were reported lower or higher for previous cohorts. My take is less nuanced, because I already see some addiction in my kid to screens ( I would blame my wife, but I am to blame as well ), which prompted me to crack down on it. I think there is a lot of blame to share, but I don't think parents are more to blame than a corporation with nation-state level of resources to overcome objections, force trends and so on.
sarchertech 2y ago
Maybe. But according to the author, she’s doing better without the phone. From what I remember of middle school, having constant 24/7 contact with my classmates would have been detrimental, so I buy it.
yedava 2y ago
The kid's mental health improved when she gave up her phone. So there is that and also some research that justifies the causation [1]. [1] https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/social-media-mental-illness-epidemic https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/social-media-mental-ill...
pknomad 2y ago
Why do you find it troubling? The article doesn't claim that poor parenting and divorce doesn't have negative effects on a child. It claims that social media, amplified by technology, has had negative effects on his/her child. Technology is a double edged sword and good parenting is supposed to shield predatory action by social media companies. I think this quotation captures the sentiment the best: "She assessed her worth within a system where she was simultaneously attention-addicted and attention-starved. She’d internalized an algorithm where provocative content wins"
- williamtrask 2y ago
  Note: netik’s bio indicates they used to work at Twitter.
  - pknomad 2y ago
    that'll do it. Thanks william
louwrentius 2y ago
That was exactly my impression
owisd 2y ago
Unlike social media/smartphone usage, divorce rates don't suddenly spike in 2010 to match the spike in childhood mental health problems. Despite social media companies best efforts, there is no reasonable alternative hypothesis for what happened globally in 2010 to cause the problem.
- bryan_w 2y ago
  There are lies, damned lies, and statistics: https://www.techdirt.com/2022/07/21/blaming-social-media-for-suicide-is-taking-the-easy-and-likely-wrong-way-out/ https://www.techdirt.com/2022/07/21/blaming-social-media-for...

mikemitchelldev 2y ago

It's really amazing what I don't know not being a parent...

peepeepoopoo76 2y ago

[flagged]

mkl 2y ago
The person submitting puts in the title. Sometimes they mess it up, sometimes they break the rules and editorialise. No ML is needed.
- peepeepoopoo76 2y ago
  [flagged]

sahila 2y ago

Sometimes I wish we wouldn't limit these studies / conclusions to just children. Certainly children are more susceptible and lack greater control than adults but the negatives of high phone usage and social media propagates throughout society and adults. Of course whereas a parent can take away their daughter's phones, who's to take away ours?

josefresco 2y ago
My teens often tell me about how teachers (really just one teacher) in their school decry the usage of smartphones. I've told them repeatedly that the next time a teacher rants about "screen time" ask to see their iOS screen time numbers. Unfortunately (and smartly) they aren't interested in poking their teacher in the eye.

bigyikes 2y ago

I’m not sure I’ve seen anyone disagree with the premise that phone and social media addiction is bad for kids (and probably adults too), and yet we still find ourselves in this position. What are we to do? Banning phone use on an individual basis is a recipe for social suicide. Some kind of collective action is needed. Legislation against phone use for minors is one option, but I wouldn’t expect it to receive widespread support. Banning social media for minors might be workable, but it wouldn’t fully resolve the issue.

hot_gril 2y ago
It's not social suicide for a kid or teen not to have a smartphone (or to limit usage), so it's solvable individually.
- jader201 2y ago
  Curious, do you have teens? Most people saying things like this don't, but if you do, curious if you've tried this and it works/ed out for you?
  - hot_gril 2y ago
    It worked when I was a teen (not very long ago) and nearly everyone else had smartphones. I think the people who consider it social suicide are unconvinced that smartphones are a problem to begin with, which like I said is fine if they want that.
    - bluSCALE4 2y ago
      Were you popular? I feel like social dynamics must play a role. I mean I'm pretty sure blue vs green bubbles are a big deal in some circles let alone social media.
      - hot_gril 2y ago
        Moderately, or at least, not socially dead. Only played video games on weekends, including a Minecraft server with friends, which in hindsight still became a bit of an addiction I would've been better without. I was popular in college, and I did have a phone then but barely used it. Having a Facebook account mattered in college purely for class groups, events, and group chats where people coordinated stuff. One thing I don't know is what replaced that (if anything). So basically, having a PC at home was more than enough.

louwrentius 2y ago

Dear Chat-GPT, please write an article in the style of an abusive narcissistic parent with no writing skills. Make sure she lets shine through that her child distrusts her so much that she lies and keeps secrets. The relationship between parent and child has broken down, and the child is not to blame. Let the reader realize in not so subtle ways that the phone isn’t the actual issue, and let them realize the author is an unreliable narrator.

radiojosh 2y ago
As soon as the author talked about the zebra stripe scars on the daughter's arm, I knew it wasn't about just the phone. As soon as the author said that their daughter went from Pink Floyd to stereotypical duck lips and peace signs, I decided they were completely full of it.
- louwrentius 2y ago
  I agree 100%

jrflowers 2y ago

> my daughter is among the first generation of 10-to-14-year-olds active on social media This makes sense if her daughter is presently 25 years old

sarchertech 2y ago
I think the author is talking about scale. There were definitely kids with social medial accounts 15 years ago. But very few of them had personal smart phones that they could use in bed at 3am.
_cenw 2y ago
I'm 30 and I was on social media, just with school internet and not a smartphone.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
kadushka 2y ago
I clearly remember 12 year olds who were active on LiveJournal and a couple other less known social networking sites back in 2002-2003. The only difference it was done via a desktop computer rather than an iPhone.
- Brybry 2y ago
  Yep, millennial teenagers in my area were all over LiveJournal/Myspace/Xanga in the early aughts. And if one considers messengers like ICQ/AIM (or even IRC) as a form of social media then teenagers were commonly (in my area) using social media in the late 90s.
cjpearson 2y ago
Most definitions of Generation Z would include both those who are presently 25 and 14 years old.
- jrflowers 2y ago
  This is true so long as you consider Gen Alpha a subset of Gen Z

trey-jones 2y ago

Well, I didn't read the whole article, but I can confirm that I like my daughter (14) better once her allocated phone time is up each day. She only just got the phone 6 months ago, and we limit screen time pretty severely with Google Family Link, so we think we're doing ok. We have discussed trimming the screen time down even more, since school finished up. Also, she's not doing any social media at all. Still, kids are more fun when they aren't staring at a screen (in my opinion and possibly contrary to what many believe). I think this is obvious to any parent, right? Too much screen time bad. I know it's bad for me as well, though my current bias is heavily against technology in general - I will admit that.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
talldatethrow 2y ago
If she's not on social media, what is she even doing online these days? Watching YouTube? Reading blogs about favorite subjects? YouTube is basically as bad as any social media IMO since it has an endless stream of stimulus that's artificially easy to consume.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  There should be a way of limiting your kids' YouTube viewing to only certain channels, so they can watch Kurzgesagt and music instruction videos (for instance), but not all the other crap. Perhaps a third-party app could offer this feature for parents.
- trey-jones 2y ago
  Youtube has been a problem and we have had many discussions about what's worth her time and what definitely isn't. We limit the app specifically to 1 hr. per day, and just kinda keep tabs on what she's watching and talk to her about it. Putting faith in any app to curate or restrict content in Youtube and the like; for this one I think doing the human thing of talking to her regularly and even making it clear that we will be checking out what she's doing is preferable.

cjk2 2y ago

My kids are better for their iPhones. They have no access to social media and policies in place to make sure they are tools and not sources of entertainment and addiction. Absolutes on either end of the spectrum just lead to extremism which helps no one. This headline (the article one and the HN summary) are just extremism via reductionism. You can reduce this entire thing to a point but it deprives them of their instinctive tool using and building mentality.

tmpz22 2y ago
Not being on Social Media at < 14 is extremism? The same verb used to describe terrorists?
- cjk2 2y ago
  No that’s basically the law. What is extremism is depriving them of what is an essential tool in these times. Teach don’t preach.
  - averageRoyalty 2y ago
    Can you name anything that makes a smartphone essential - not preferable or convenient, but essential as you said? I hear this argument a lot, but I'm yet to hear an essential purpose they hold for anyone.
    - cjk2 2y ago
      Well my youngest (13 year old) daughter uses it for Google classroom scheduling at school, transport status (TFL), payments, online banking, checking weather, taking photos and editing them, tracking her running and cycling, listening to music etc... While not essential for any of these, it's a tool which you can leverage for all of these to improve things. Edit: not to mention the iPad+apple pencil which is just another way of creating art...
      - averageRoyalty 2y ago

wstone 2y ago

Woah! You were texting whilst driving?!

CharlesW 2y ago
I'm curious about the mom's screen time metrics, and whether she considered giving up her own iPhone.

dcdevito 2y ago

[dead]

AI_beffr 2y ago

the effect of hyperconnection is especially bad for girls. they can keep leaning into it until they fall flat on their faces. boys will tend to not engage with it to that extent even if available. its interesting that human society has been a wild and ill-advised experiment every since the introduction of agriculture. we are all going to eat nothing but carbohydrates and sit around all day, whereas yesterday we ate mostly animals and spent all of our time running around from place to place. since the start, insane and dangerous experiments have been the norm. if we choose to reject the madness, reject AI namely, it will be the first time in history. an experiment in and of itself.

yedava 2y ago

If all the kids in the peer group have no cell phones, solving the mental health crisis would be easy. As long as some kids have access, the others will feel like they are being deprived of something fundamental, will resent their parents and will look for any opportunity to get on social media. A technological solution is to have complete control over the computing devices we "own". But that goes against the interests of trillion dollar corporations and so we can't have that. Like I was figuring out if there is a way to let my kid use Youtube with a select set of channels, but no. Youtube needs to keep showing suggestions on what to watch next. I would gladly pay for the ability to control what content my kid sees, but Youtube stands to make more profit by getting the kid addicted to their app.

walterbell 2y ago
Apple iOS 18 Safari is going to allow "AI" customization of any website, that might allow removal of the recommendations panel. Another option might be a custom Youtube frontend or browser extension for filtering.
somethingreen 2y ago
I don't know from where came this idea that not having a certain thing will inevitably ruin child's relationship with the parent and cause a collapse of at least some part of their life, but if it was implanted - someone somewhere should have a pure gold Marketer of The Century award on their table. Also, install Unhook Youtube - it allows reducing YT to pretty much just subscriptions and watch later.
armchairhacker 2y ago
It's not just that. Some kids live in unsafe or car-centric areas, with parents who are uncaring or unable to take them to places where they can socialize in-person. Every kid goes to school, but maybe the kids at school bully them, or maybe the school is too focused on coursework and doesn't dedicate enough time for socialization, or maybe the kid is home-schooled. Especially if a ban were enacted today, some kids spent most of their life on social media, so they might have trouble adapting and socializing in-person. Personally, I think the most likely and best solution is better social media. Currently, social media is regulated to shield kids from explicit content and predators, but it should also be regulated to shield them from negativity and mindless engagement, and to promote positivity and healthy behaviors (including not spending too much time on it). Recommendation algorithms for kids should be strictly controlled by the government; keep in mind that the government already strictly controls what kids learn in school, and it doesn't have to outright ban "non-explicit harmful" content, just down-weight it enough that kids don't find it without intentionally looking. Plus, a social media with healthier recommendations and discourse may become popular for adults as well, even though they wouldn't be locked into this version like minors (I can imagine a system that requires consent like adult ID but then lets adults stay anonymous, which could be bypassed by dedicated minors, but most wouldn't care enough to do so).

extr 2y ago

IMO the problem with phones for teens it that they have nothing to use them for except socialization. Adult phone addiction is a problem but phones are also tools for adults. Answering emails, calling the doctor's office, checking your credit card statement, etc. Teens have literally no use for phones except for communication/socialization. They also have abundant free time. One plan I've been thinking about for my own kid (currently 9mo old) is he's allowed to have a phone as long as he also has a job (or suitable job-like activity appropriate for a teen).

mid-kid 2y ago
I would disagree. While I was a bit of an outlier and would use my phone primarily for tinkering, I would also use it to go down rabbit holes on wikipedia, play video games, read books and watch shows. Phones are glorified consumption devices, at the end of the day.
Spivak 2y ago
> Teens have literally no use for phones except for communication/socialization. What do you think they're supposed to be using them for if not that? Socialization is the point. I was every bit the teenage girl annoyingly on her phone constantly but I was constantly talking to my friends / boyfriend. So much of being a teenager is being dragged places you don't want to go and being forced to be around adults you don't care about talking about insurance or escrow or whatever. But online was a place that was mine, where my friends were.
- extr 2y ago
  Nothing, my point is that they don't need them. You can physically socialize.
hammyhavoc 2y ago
Obviously someone doesn't remember the Game Boy, iPod, Walkman, pocket TVs, camcorders, Polaroids, digital cameras et al. Just because modernity has social nonsense baked into it by default doesn't mean that they were social experiences to begin with. Entertainment, utility and creativity were valued over social e-peen points once upon a time. Shocking, I know. Adding this kind of friction to be able to communicate with family and peers is a recipe for a teenage dropout that's more focused on chump change just to have a phone than further education. I left school at sixteen, I was never given pocket money. You bet having a girlfriend, cool clothes, a phone, an iPod and video games was more important to me than anything my dad had to say, especially when what we were being taught was nothing I had any interest in. The final straw was needing a new computer to run Boinx to make stop-motion animations (my hobby at the time before CG movies really took off). Having the things you want and need is a big deal to teenage brain, especially when they're attainable without much effort and make you happy. If a parent isn't giving resources or nurturing interests and is instead adding friction to something a teen can actually have for themselves, that parent is losing all leverage over a teenager because they can't threaten to take away pocket money and thus their source of "cool" and pleasure in life. Kids should focus on their studies if their parents can facilitate them being able to do so. "I wouldn't allow my kids to leave school at sixteen", in the UK at the time, they were legally adults, but also didn't stop plenty of kids dropping out at fourteen to work and get the things their parents weren't giving them. Neither parent wanted me to leave, but neither parent was relevant in any way anymore to me, they were just obstacles between me and my teenage bullshit.

swayvil 2y ago

Attention control seems to be a top cultivative practice. What you put your attention on, how long, etc. Good practice delivers health, sensitivity, kindness. Bad delivers bad health, bad behavior. Pleasure, habit and popularity is a bad guide here. You might actually have to fight for your sanity.

TillE 2y ago
That's always what I think when I see adults complaining that they hate their phone. It's just a portable computer, you control how and when you interact with it.
- swayvil 2y ago
  Well, "control" is a fuzzy zone. There's temptation, confusion, marketing... I mean, you choose which direction to swim but there's also a current to contend with. It can be a fight.
- falsaberN1 2y ago
  Heh, the only reason I complain about my phone is because I can't do enough things with it. Or at least not comfortably (and without requiring root, which is easier said than done depending on model). It just annoys me how bad the UX is compared to a proper computer with a keyboard and window management. I was once hospitalized and unable to move, with only my phone to pass time, and the experience was SO frustrating! I don't use my phone a lot, all I got for entertainment is Retroarch, Lichess and a generic sudoku app I got from F-Droid, so obviously my opinion is highly subjective, but it feels like having a supercomputer that can only run MSDOS. One thing at a time in fullscreen with maybe a few passive resident processes. I know some phones let you split things in two or so, but not all of them and the implementation is never flawless or limits what apps can be split. If you mean hating the phone as a social thing, I am a bit self-conscious about being seen using it too much or taking it out in front of someone unless warranted. I wouldn't do stuff like crossing the street or driving with my eyes glued to it. But that's a people problem and not a phone problem, I think.

IshKebab 2y ago

I wonder if there's a market for phones whose software can only do a few things. I mean: maps, phone, whatsapp. Obviously in theory stock Android can do that but they don't really take child locks seriously because they have the wrong threat model for it - they think "it only has to be securish because most children aren't going to be smart enough to circumvent it and it's not serious if they do anyway", instead of "it has to be actually secure because you only need one smart child out of thousands to figure out a bypass and it is serious because it affects peoples lives". So maybe you could have an Android distro where it literally white-lists a few apps and servers at the OS level.

turboat 2y ago
Yes, the market exists and there are several competitors. I've looked at https://sunbeamwireless.com https://sunbeamwireless.com, which runs their Android variant, BasicOS. Haven't purchased yet though. Light Phone is similar. Gabb and Pinwheel sell phones oriented at kids, and both have OSes based on Android. Unfortunately, as you say stock Android as well as iOS don't make effective locks. What they offer is passable for parents managing their kids' phones, although in practice kids often find ways to bypass. It's very difficult for an adult who wants to self-regulate. There are some hacks you can do, like MDM, but it's not at all straightforward. I'm looking to connect with people about this topic. In fact I want a business partner, although I'm also interested in people who just have input.

walterbell 2y ago

Has anyone made a rate-limited phone UX? Not just measuring screen time, but pre-agreed quotas, e.g. N mins per hour during specific time periods or locations, for the entire phone, specific apps, and/or contact groups.

adolph 2y ago
iOS parent controls handle this pretty ok. The time limits can be by application class (which can be customized) or individually. The controls are linked to their Apple ID, so the same permissions flow across devices: tablet, phone, watch (probably desktop too?). The child can request "more time" on an app and an alert pops up on the parents' devices (which can be obnoxious until some boundaries are set). The communication/contacts control strikes a reasonable balance too. I think the cell enabled watch offers better mobile function than carrying around a full phone and its baggage of capability.
- ricardobeat 2y ago
  We went the cell enabled watch route and it’s not there yet. Calling and location often don’t work, even though there is perfect mobile signal. Updates must be managed from a phone, so you need one anyway. Maps are not easy to use, you can’t do simple stuff like a google search or look up train times.
  - adolph 2y ago
    Yeah, I have a wish that Apple would have been braver and pushed the watch at expense of the phone like they pushed the phone past the iPod. Maybe the watch form factor won't mature until a good enough LLM is squeezed into a future more capable watch processor. Remember the days when iPhone updates had to be managed from a desktop and cell data wasn't so great? I have an appreciation for the format even if I'm not a user of it.

christkv 2y ago

Our solution has been feature flip phones and encouraging the kids to call their friends to talk instead.

nonrandomstring 2y ago

It's not just kids. I'm literally watching dozens of relationships of people I know IRL breaking down... depressed and angry teenagers fighting with parents, couples divorcing, jealousy and suspicion tearing friendships apart. It's fucked up. Smartphones and social media are at right at the heart of it. These are dark times to live through and I hope to see an age when all of this is repaired and behind us, and we can find a kinder, more mature and saner use for technology.

HenryBemis 2y ago

Every time a parent asks me for suggestions (and they do.. a lot!) on "how can I stay in touch with my kid but not give him/her a smartphone", I suggest they switch to Apple ecosystem and get some cheap second-hand iPhone for the parent(s), and an second-hand Apple Watch 4 (or later) that has LTE and GPS. With this they can add an e-sim to the watch with unlimited minutes, and they can stay in touch with their kids 24/7, track their location, etc. Just remember to ALWAYS charge the watch when the kids get home. I also suggest that they lock-down the settings of the kids' watch (the customisation/locking-down is very good) just add a few contacts (papa, mama, sis/bro) and that's it. Nobody else can call them, and they cannot call anyone else (except emergency services). ps: I personally run on Android. I absolutely despise and I dropped every Apple-thing I had on the battery-gate scandal)

ricardobeat 2y ago
Have you had experience with that yourself? We have apple watches with mobile service and reliability has been quite poor. Location is usually severely delayed, or it looks like our kid is going for a swim (we live near water). It sounded like a great plan, but I’d definitely not recommend it (yet).

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

iamawacko 2y ago

The daughter was vaping. I'm not entirely clear, how did taking away a phone stop that? And I know a large number of teens that are honor role, on sports teams, and gesticulate, all while having a phone and actively use social media. I also know teens with depression, insomnia, and poor grades, even though they don't have a phone or social media. That's not to say phones aren't harmful, but clearly it's not everything.

iamawacko 2y ago
And I say this as a person who's phone says "Today: 0 minutes" and "Daily average screen time: 20 m" (almost all 2FA and maps)
tstrimple 2y ago
It's a convenient scapegoat though, and the "solutions" all require less actual parenting so I guess that can be appealing. > "It's literally impossible for me to influence my child's behavior, so we must enact legislation to ensure no kids can use these evil devices!"

Tade0 2y ago

Harmful effects of social media notwithstanding, it's not just about the phones. Reaching for your phone is an example of what psychologists refer to as avoidance behaviours. We look at screens so that we don't have to deal with difficult thoughts and emotions. Sure, without a phone that person had no other choice but to face whatever they've been avoiding. But more often than not leaving someone to their own devices when they clearly can't cope with the situation by themselves makes them look for a different source of distraction that in turn will make you wish they were "just" addicted to social media. A person doing well mentally has no need to avoid anything. The right thing to do is help them get there, not play whack-a-mole with their coping mechanisms.

coolbreezetft24 2y ago
This is me with my dog. Whenever I'm stressed out from life I can always escape to my bichon
- iamthemonster 2y ago
  A bichon is not a dog, it is a human baby with extra floof.
turboat 2y ago
Do you have any suggestions on how to help people achieve and maintain good mental health? It's true that addiction is ultimately a psychological problem. It's true that people engage in addictive behaviors as a coping mechanism to avoid difficult emotions. It's also true that the Internet has enabled a lot of deliberately addictive content. Phones keep that content constantly at hand. And it's difficult to avoid having a phone since they also provide utilities. I'd like to live in a world where everyone had such great mental wellness that they were impervious to the temptations of their phones. What are some serious tactics to make that happen?
- PlunderBunny 2y ago
  At the risk of it coming across like I’m boasting or virtue signalling (whatever that means), what keeps me going is the thought that I can use my time and money to help other people. Simple stuff like donating to charities and planting trees. For parents, this could take the form of doubling a child’s pocket money/allowance on the condition that half of it is donated to charities - encourage the child to research charities and talk about them. (The latter isn’t an original idea - I originally read about it in the form of tripling the pocket money with 1/3 to keep, 1/3 for charity, and 1/3 to invest. If your kid has to do some chores to get their pocket money, then this sets them up with a pattern for a good life (work, then give and save).

hunter-gatherer 2y ago

I'm always curious to understand how so many people didn't know phones and social media would be bad. I remember having "prohoetic" discussions about all this in 2008 with a bunch of privates in the Army. How people ever thought how the internet was evolving in the early 2000s was going to be only amazing has always baffled me.

KaiserPro 2y ago

So I was one of the first generation to have access to instant messaging when I was less than 11. (I'm pushing 40) I am despite what the media says, a digital native. that being said, I don't think kids should be on social media. By that I mean instagram/tiktok/snapchat I have been talking to my kids (10/7) about "the internet". The normal stuff: no real names, no photos, no giving away details to anyone. They have a shared iPad, but it has time limits, and it stays in the living room. and as an adult leader for a "uniformed organisation" for kids, one of the badges is about staying safe online. Some of the shit that I hear from them leaves me a bit worried. Roblox is a fucking nest of paedophiles. Instgram isn't a place for kids, and neither is youtube. But, the biggest issue, apart from google and facebook not having any commercial incentive to stop kids from using their stuff: is parents not talking to their kids to find out whats happening. Who are they talking to? How long are they spending online? What are they watching? You as a parent have to be involved. You can't let your kid wander alone on the internet. You need to set barriers. You don't need to be a helicopter, but you do need to take an interest. You also need to have a strong fucking password to stop the kids getting round the parental controls.

averageRoyalty 2y ago
> The normal stuff: no real names, no photos, no giving away details to anyone. For the record, none of this has been "normal" for 15+ years. Sharing personal details - either publicly on social media or "privately" online is absolutely normal now.
- NoNoisle 2y ago
  I wish it would still be normal
hammyhavoc 2y ago
Roblox or any other specific thing isn't any different than anything else in terms of risk. Where there are humans, there are problems. Where there are humans, there is crime. Where there are humans, there are pedophiles. The physical world is the same story. After being sexually abused repeatedly as a kid and teen, both at school and online, don't get complacent in thinking background checks mean teachers aren't pedophiles—background checks and lists only tell you who has been caught so far. Digital grooming is nasty, but the prioritized danger is anyone physically close. Passwords aren't stopping teenage determination and they never have, not now devices are cheap and easy to come by, and lots of peers have drawers full of unwanted yesteryear stuff. Twenty years ago, we were using proxies, hacking WiFi APs, giving people old devices and even buying each other phone credit.

drewcoo 2y ago

The thing about phones is that they make bad parenting obvious. And that's apparently terrifying to a lot of adults. Luckily for us, we can just blame tech and sidestep any responsibility.

1vuio0pswjnm7 2y ago

"I found answers via my sister in Johann Hari's book Stolen Focus, which explores how and why our attention is collapsing: "The phones we have, and the programs that run on them, were deliberately designed by the smartest people in the world to maximally grab and maximally hold our attention."" If only they were designed by "the smartest people in the world". This is a journalistic trope. They were designed by people with social problems not to help address their problems but to feed an unhealthy addiction to computers as an escape.

musicale 2y ago

Taking away the iPhone may have had some benefits, but it did not make anyone a better person.

justinclift 2y ago
But it sounds like it did? Why are you thinking it didn't, or are you meaning it from a different angle of some sort?
- musicale 2y ago
  Having a phone - and being depressed, etc. - doesn't make you any less of a good person. I think what was intended was "happier, healthier" person.
  - justinclift 2y ago
    Ahhh. Sure, the phone and depression themselves aren't really related to the good/bad/(etc) metric. The behaviours the daughter was exhibiting though (lying, desperate attention seeking, etc) are probably why the article author frames it that way.
    - musicale 2y ago
      The barrel may be rotten, but the apple is not.
      - justinclift 2y ago
        It'd be great if that's how things worked. ;)

vladcodes 2y ago

First I read: “Taking away Advanced Dungeons and Dragons made my daughter a better person”