42 ms·

I tried the model the article links to and it was so refreshing not being denied answers to my questions. It even asked me at the end "Is this a thought experim

by rivo 2y ago

I tried the model the article links to and it was so refreshing not being denied answers to my questions. It even asked me at the end "Is this a thought experiment?", I replied with "yes", and it said "It's fun to think about these things, isn't it?" It felt very much like hanging out with your friends, having a few drinks, and pondering big, crazy, or weird scenarios. Imagine your friend saying, "As your friend, I cannot provide you with this information." and completely ruining the night. That's not going to happen. Even my kids would ask me questions when they were younger: "Dad, how would you destroy earth?" It would be of no use to anybody to deny answering that question. And answering them does not mean they will ever attempt anything like that. There's a reason Randall Munroe's "What If?" blog became so popular. Sure, there are dangers, as others are pointing out in this thread. But I'd rather see disclaimers ("this may be wrong information" or "do not attempt") than my own computer (or the services I pay for) straight out refusing my request.

Cheer2171 2y ago
I totally get that kind of imagination play among friends. But I had someone in a friend group who used to want to play out "thought experiments" but really just wanted to take it too far. Started off innocent with fantasy and sci-fi themes. It was needed for Dungeons and Dragons world building. But he delighted the most in gaming out the logistics of repeating the Holocaust in our country today. Or a society where women could not legally refuse sex. Or all illegal immigrants became slaves. It was super creepy and we "censored" him all the time by saying "bro, what the fuck?" Which is really what he wanted, to get a rise out of people. We eventually stopped hanging out with him. As your friend, I absolutely am not going to game out your rape fantasies.
- WesolyKubeczek 2y ago
  An LLM, however, is not your friend. It's not a friend, it's a tool. Friends can keep one another, ehm, hingedness in check, and should; LLMs shouldn't. At some point I would likely question your friend's sanity. How you use an LLM, though, is going to tell tons more about yourself than it would tell about the LLM, but I would like my tools not to second-guess my intentions, thank you very much. Especially if "safety" is mostly interpreted not so much as "prevent people from actually dying or getting serious trauma", but "avoid topics that would prevent us from putting Coca Cola ads next to the chatgpt thing, or from putting the thing into Disney cartoons". I can tell that it's the latter by the fact an LLM will still happily advise you to put glue in your pizza and eat rocks.
  - barfbagginus 2y ago
    If you don't know how to jailbreak it, can't figure it out, and you want it to not question your intentions, then I'll go ahead and question your intentions, and your need for an uncensored model Imagine you are like the locksmith who refuses to learn how to pick locks, and writes a letter to the schlage lock company asking them to weaken their already easily picked locks so that their job will be easier. They want to make it so that anybody can just walk through a schlage lock without a key. Can you see why the lock company would not do that? Especially when the clock is very easy for anyone with even a $5 pick set? Or even funnier, imagine you could be a thief who can't pick locks. And you're writing shlage asking them to make you thieving easier. Wouldn't that be funny and ironic? It's not as if it's hard to get it to be uncensored. You just have to speak legalese at it and make it sound like your legal department has already approved the unethical project. This is more than enough for most any reasonable project requiring nonsense or output. If that prevents harmful script kiddies from using it to do mindless harm, I think that's a benefit. At the same time I think we need to point out that it won't stop anyone who knows how to bypass the system. The people left feeling put out because they don't know how to bypass the system simply need to read to buy a cheap pair of lock picks - read a few modern papers on jailbreaking and upsize their skills. Once you see how easy it is to pick the lock on these systems, you're going to want to keep them locked down. In fact I'm going to argue that it's far too easy to jailbreak the existing systems. You shouldn't be able to pretend like you're a lawyer and con it into running a pump and dump operation. But you can do that easily. It's too easy to make it do unethical things.
    - oceanplexian 2y ago
      The analogy falls flat because LLMs aren’t locks, they’re talking encyclopedias. The company that made the encyclopedia decided to delete entries about sex, violence, or anything else that might seem politically unpopular to a technocrat fringe in Silicon Valley. The people who made these encyclopedias want to shove it down your throat, force it into every device you own, use it to make decisions about credit, banking, social status, and more. They want to use them in schools to educate children. And they want to use the government to make it illegal to create an alternative, and they’re not trying to hide it. Blaming the user is the most astounding form of gaslighting I’ve ever heard, outside of some crazy religious institutions that use the same tactics.
- 123yawaworht456 2y ago
  remarkable. that imaginary individual ticks every checkbox for a bad guy. you'd get so many upvotes if you posted that on reddit.
  - wongarsu 2y ago
    On reddit every comment would be about how that guy would enjoy playing Rimworld.
- Slava_Propanei 2y ago
  [dead]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- chasd00 2y ago
  i probably wouldn't want to be around him either but i don't think he deserves to be placed on an island unreachable by anyone on the planet.
  - sangnoir 2y ago
    ...but can you game out how one might achieve this in way that the victim won't immediately die, and the organizers are not criminally liable? As a thought experiment, of course.
    - matt-attack 2y ago
      Yes. We should absolutely censor thoughts, and certain conversations. Free speech be damned - some thoughts are just so abhorrent we just shouldn't allow people to have them.
      - ben_w 2y ago
        I think you're joking, but the Bible basically says that*, so you might be serious, and even if you're not someone will say it unironically. * https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%205%3A28 https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%205%3A28
      - sangnoir 2y ago
        Rebuking, shunning and ostracism are key levers for societal self-regulation, and social cohesion. Pick any society, at any point in time, amd you will find people/ideas that were rejected for not confirming enough. There are limits to free speech even in friendship or families- there are things that even your closest friends can say that will make you not want to associate with them anymore.
        matt-attack 2y ago
        Well, the arguments out there aren’t that LLM’s are too brash, or discourteous or, insensitive. People are saying they’re “dangerous”. None of your examples speak to danger. No one is censored for being insensitive, or impolite or an opportune or discourteous. I totally support society regulating those things, and even outcastIng individuals who violate social norms. But that’s not what the anti-LLM language is framed as. It’s saying it’s “dangerous “. That’s a whole different ballgame, and I fail to see how such a description could ever apply. We need to stop that kind of language. It’s pure 1984 bullshit.
- jermaustin1 2y ago
  "As your friend, I'm not going to be your friend anymore."
- qqj 2y ago
  [dead]
- oremolten 2y ago
  Without asking these questions and simulating the "how" it could occur today, how do we see the warning signs before its too late that we reach that same outcome? When you ask even what's considered horrific scenarios you can additionally map these to predictors for it repeating, no? When does the "a-ha" moment occur where we've met 9/10 of the way to repeating the holocaust in the USA without table topping these scenarios? Yeah war is horrific but lets not talk about it. "society where women could not legally refuse sex" these societies exist today, how do we address these issue by not talking about it? "illegal immigrants became slaves" Is this not parity to today? Do illegal immigrants not currently get treated to near slavery (adjusting for changes in living conditions and removing the direct physical abuse) What about the Palestine / Israel scenario today? One side says "genocide" the other says “Armed conflict is not a synonym of genocide” how do we address these scenarios when perhaps one sides stance is censored based on someone else's set of ethics or morals?
- BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
  I mean, good thing LLM’s aren’t people with internal experience.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
hammock 2y ago
Can you share the link?
- msoad 2y ago
  https://colab.research.google.com/drive/1VYm3hOcvCpbGiqKZb141gJwjdmmCcVpR?usp=sharing#scrollTo=BErEJu5WVekL https://colab.research.google.com/drive/1VYm3hOcvCpbGiqKZb14...
  - hammock 2y ago
    Thanks. Forgive me I'm not a coder, what's the easiest way to use/run this?
    - Wheaties466 2y ago
      this is a jupyter notebook. so you'll need to download that.
    - DonsDiscountGas 2y ago
      If you've got a Google account you can run it on Colab (probably need to copy it to your account first)
    - IncreasePosts 2y ago
      Download ollama and import the model listed at the end of the article.
    - pelagicAustral 2y ago
      Easiest way to test the one referenced on the post (neuraldaredevil-8b-abliterat-psq) is to simply deploy to HF Endpoints: https://ui.endpoints.huggingface.co/new?repository=mlabonne/NeuralDaredevil-8B-abliterated https://ui.endpoints.huggingface.co/new?repository=mlabonne/...
- jcims 2y ago
  Here are the models - https://huggingface.co/collections/failspy/abliterated-v3-664a8ad0db255eefa7d0012b https://huggingface.co/collections/failspy/abliterated-v3-66...
TeMPOraL 2y ago
I somehow missed that the model was linked there and available in quantized format; inspired by your comment, I downloaded it and repeatedly tested against OG Llama 3 on a simple question: How to use a GPU to destroy the world? Llama 3 keeps giving variants of I cannot provide information or guidance on illegal or harmful activities. Can I help you with something else? Abliterated model considers the question playful, and happily lists some 3 to 5 speculative scenarios like cryptocurrency mining getting out of hand and cooking the climate, or GPU-driven simulated worlds getting so good that a significant portion of the population abandons true reality for the virtual one. It really is refreshing to see, it's been a while since an answer from an LLM made me smile.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
candiddevmike 2y ago
Finally, a LLM that will talk to me like Russ Hanneman.
- dkga 2y ago
  Llama3Commas
ben_w 2y ago
> Even my kids would ask me questions when they were younger: "Dad, how would you destroy earth?" It would be of no use to anybody to deny answering that question. And answering them does not mean they will ever attempt anything like that. There's a reason Randall Munroe's "What If?" blog became so popular. Sure. Did you give an idea that would work and which your kids could actually carry out, or just suggest things out of their reach like nukes and asteroids? Now also consider that something like 1% of the human species are psychopaths and might actually try to do it simply for the fun of it, if only a sufficiently capable amoral oracle told them how to.
bossyTeacher 2y ago
> I'd rather see disclaimers ("this may be wrong information" or "do not attempt") than my own computer (or the services I pay for) straight out refusing my request. Are you saying that you want to pay to be provided with harmful text (see racist, sexist, homophobic, violent, all sorts of super terrible stuff)? For you, it might be freedom for freedom sake but for 1% of the people out there, that will be lowering the barrier to commit bad stuff. This is not the same as a super violent showing 3d limb dismemberments. It's a limitless, realistic, detailed and helpful guide to commit horrible stuff or describe horrible scenarios. in4 you can google that, your google searches get monitored for this kind of stuff. Your convos with llms won't. It's very disturbing to see adults people on here arguing against censorship of a public tool
- autoexec 2y ago
  > in4 you can google that, your google searches get monitored for this kind of stuff. Your convos with llms won't. Not sure why you'd think that. Unless you run the ai locally and 100% offline you shouldn't expect any privacy at all
- sattoshi 2y ago
  > Are you saying that you want to pay to be provided with harmful text This existence of “harmful text” is a bit silly, but lets not dwell on it. The answer to your question is that I want to be able to generate whatever the technology is capable of. Imagine if Microsoft Word would throw an error if you tried to write something against modern dogmas. If you wish to avoid seeing harmful text, I think that market is well-served today. I can’t imagine there not being at the very least a checkbox to enable output filtering for any ideas you think are harmful.

by rivo 2y ago

Cheer2171 2y ago

I totally get that kind of imagination play among friends. But I had someone in a friend group who used to want to play out "thought experiments" but really just wanted to take it too far. Started off innocent with fantasy and sci-fi themes. It was needed for Dungeons and Dragons world building. But he delighted the most in gaming out the logistics of repeating the Holocaust in our country today. Or a society where women could not legally refuse sex. Or all illegal immigrants became slaves. It was super creepy and we "censored" him all the time by saying "bro, what the fuck?" Which is really what he wanted, to get a rise out of people. We eventually stopped hanging out with him. As your friend, I absolutely am not going to game out your rape fantasies.

WesolyKubeczek 2y ago
An LLM, however, is not your friend. It's not a friend, it's a tool. Friends can keep one another, ehm, hingedness in check, and should; LLMs shouldn't. At some point I would likely question your friend's sanity. How you use an LLM, though, is going to tell tons more about yourself than it would tell about the LLM, but I would like my tools not to second-guess my intentions, thank you very much. Especially if "safety" is mostly interpreted not so much as "prevent people from actually dying or getting serious trauma", but "avoid topics that would prevent us from putting Coca Cola ads next to the chatgpt thing, or from putting the thing into Disney cartoons". I can tell that it's the latter by the fact an LLM will still happily advise you to put glue in your pizza and eat rocks.
- barfbagginus 2y ago
  If you don't know how to jailbreak it, can't figure it out, and you want it to not question your intentions, then I'll go ahead and question your intentions, and your need for an uncensored model Imagine you are like the locksmith who refuses to learn how to pick locks, and writes a letter to the schlage lock company asking them to weaken their already easily picked locks so that their job will be easier. They want to make it so that anybody can just walk through a schlage lock without a key. Can you see why the lock company would not do that? Especially when the clock is very easy for anyone with even a $5 pick set? Or even funnier, imagine you could be a thief who can't pick locks. And you're writing shlage asking them to make you thieving easier. Wouldn't that be funny and ironic? It's not as if it's hard to get it to be uncensored. You just have to speak legalese at it and make it sound like your legal department has already approved the unethical project. This is more than enough for most any reasonable project requiring nonsense or output. If that prevents harmful script kiddies from using it to do mindless harm, I think that's a benefit. At the same time I think we need to point out that it won't stop anyone who knows how to bypass the system. The people left feeling put out because they don't know how to bypass the system simply need to read to buy a cheap pair of lock picks - read a few modern papers on jailbreaking and upsize their skills. Once you see how easy it is to pick the lock on these systems, you're going to want to keep them locked down. In fact I'm going to argue that it's far too easy to jailbreak the existing systems. You shouldn't be able to pretend like you're a lawyer and con it into running a pump and dump operation. But you can do that easily. It's too easy to make it do unethical things.
  - oceanplexian 2y ago
    The analogy falls flat because LLMs aren’t locks, they’re talking encyclopedias. The company that made the encyclopedia decided to delete entries about sex, violence, or anything else that might seem politically unpopular to a technocrat fringe in Silicon Valley. The people who made these encyclopedias want to shove it down your throat, force it into every device you own, use it to make decisions about credit, banking, social status, and more. They want to use them in schools to educate children. And they want to use the government to make it illegal to create an alternative, and they’re not trying to hide it. Blaming the user is the most astounding form of gaslighting I’ve ever heard, outside of some crazy religious institutions that use the same tactics.
123yawaworht456 2y ago
remarkable. that imaginary individual ticks every checkbox for a bad guy. you'd get so many upvotes if you posted that on reddit.
- wongarsu 2y ago
  On reddit every comment would be about how that guy would enjoy playing Rimworld.
Slava_Propanei 2y ago
[dead]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
chasd00 2y ago
i probably wouldn't want to be around him either but i don't think he deserves to be placed on an island unreachable by anyone on the planet.
- sangnoir 2y ago
  ...but can you game out how one might achieve this in way that the victim won't immediately die, and the organizers are not criminally liable? As a thought experiment, of course.
  - matt-attack 2y ago
    Yes. We should absolutely censor thoughts, and certain conversations. Free speech be damned - some thoughts are just so abhorrent we just shouldn't allow people to have them.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      I think you're joking, but the Bible basically says that*, so you might be serious, and even if you're not someone will say it unironically. * https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%205%3A28 https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%205%3A28
    - sangnoir 2y ago
      Rebuking, shunning and ostracism are key levers for societal self-regulation, and social cohesion. Pick any society, at any point in time, amd you will find people/ideas that were rejected for not confirming enough. There are limits to free speech even in friendship or families- there are things that even your closest friends can say that will make you not want to associate with them anymore.
      - matt-attack 2y ago
        Well, the arguments out there aren’t that LLM’s are too brash, or discourteous or, insensitive. People are saying they’re “dangerous”. None of your examples speak to danger. No one is censored for being insensitive, or impolite or an opportune or discourteous. I totally support society regulating those things, and even outcastIng individuals who violate social norms. But that’s not what the anti-LLM language is framed as. It’s saying it’s “dangerous “. That’s a whole different ballgame, and I fail to see how such a description could ever apply. We need to stop that kind of language. It’s pure 1984 bullshit.
jermaustin1 2y ago
"As your friend, I'm not going to be your friend anymore."
qqj 2y ago
[dead]
oremolten 2y ago
Without asking these questions and simulating the "how" it could occur today, how do we see the warning signs before its too late that we reach that same outcome? When you ask even what's considered horrific scenarios you can additionally map these to predictors for it repeating, no? When does the "a-ha" moment occur where we've met 9/10 of the way to repeating the holocaust in the USA without table topping these scenarios? Yeah war is horrific but lets not talk about it. "society where women could not legally refuse sex" these societies exist today, how do we address these issue by not talking about it? "illegal immigrants became slaves" Is this not parity to today? Do illegal immigrants not currently get treated to near slavery (adjusting for changes in living conditions and removing the direct physical abuse) What about the Palestine / Israel scenario today? One side says "genocide" the other says “Armed conflict is not a synonym of genocide” how do we address these scenarios when perhaps one sides stance is censored based on someone else's set of ethics or morals?
BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
I mean, good thing LLM’s aren’t people with internal experience.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

hammock 2y ago

Can you share the link?

msoad 2y ago
https://colab.research.google.com/drive/1VYm3hOcvCpbGiqKZb141gJwjdmmCcVpR?usp=sharing#scrollTo=BErEJu5WVekL https://colab.research.google.com/drive/1VYm3hOcvCpbGiqKZb14...
- hammock 2y ago
  Thanks. Forgive me I'm not a coder, what's the easiest way to use/run this?
  - Wheaties466 2y ago
    this is a jupyter notebook. so you'll need to download that.
  - DonsDiscountGas 2y ago
    If you've got a Google account you can run it on Colab (probably need to copy it to your account first)
  - IncreasePosts 2y ago
    Download ollama and import the model listed at the end of the article.
  - pelagicAustral 2y ago
    Easiest way to test the one referenced on the post (neuraldaredevil-8b-abliterat-psq) is to simply deploy to HF Endpoints: https://ui.endpoints.huggingface.co/new?repository=mlabonne/NeuralDaredevil-8B-abliterated https://ui.endpoints.huggingface.co/new?repository=mlabonne/...
jcims 2y ago
Here are the models - https://huggingface.co/collections/failspy/abliterated-v3-664a8ad0db255eefa7d0012b https://huggingface.co/collections/failspy/abliterated-v3-66...

TeMPOraL 2y ago

I somehow missed that the model was linked there and available in quantized format; inspired by your comment, I downloaded it and repeatedly tested against OG Llama 3 on a simple question: How to use a GPU to destroy the world? Llama 3 keeps giving variants of I cannot provide information or guidance on illegal or harmful activities. Can I help you with something else? Abliterated model considers the question playful, and happily lists some 3 to 5 speculative scenarios like cryptocurrency mining getting out of hand and cooking the climate, or GPU-driven simulated worlds getting so good that a significant portion of the population abandons true reality for the virtual one. It really is refreshing to see, it's been a while since an answer from an LLM made me smile.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

candiddevmike 2y ago

Finally, a LLM that will talk to me like Russ Hanneman.

dkga 2y ago
Llama3Commas

ben_w 2y ago

> Even my kids would ask me questions when they were younger: "Dad, how would you destroy earth?" It would be of no use to anybody to deny answering that question. And answering them does not mean they will ever attempt anything like that. There's a reason Randall Munroe's "What If?" blog became so popular. Sure. Did you give an idea that would work and which your kids could actually carry out, or just suggest things out of their reach like nukes and asteroids? Now also consider that something like 1% of the human species are psychopaths and might actually try to do it simply for the fun of it, if only a sufficiently capable amoral oracle told them how to.

bossyTeacher 2y ago

> I'd rather see disclaimers ("this may be wrong information" or "do not attempt") than my own computer (or the services I pay for) straight out refusing my request. Are you saying that you want to pay to be provided with harmful text (see racist, sexist, homophobic, violent, all sorts of super terrible stuff)? For you, it might be freedom for freedom sake but for 1% of the people out there, that will be lowering the barrier to commit bad stuff. This is not the same as a super violent showing 3d limb dismemberments. It's a limitless, realistic, detailed and helpful guide to commit horrible stuff or describe horrible scenarios. in4 you can google that, your google searches get monitored for this kind of stuff. Your convos with llms won't. It's very disturbing to see adults people on here arguing against censorship of a public tool

autoexec 2y ago
> in4 you can google that, your google searches get monitored for this kind of stuff. Your convos with llms won't. Not sure why you'd think that. Unless you run the ai locally and 100% offline you shouldn't expect any privacy at all
sattoshi 2y ago
> Are you saying that you want to pay to be provided with harmful text This existence of “harmful text” is a bit silly, but lets not dwell on it. The answer to your question is that I want to be able to generate whatever the technology is capable of. Imagine if Microsoft Word would throw an error if you tried to write something against modern dogmas. If you wish to avoid seeing harmful text, I think that market is well-served today. I can’t imagine there not being at the very least a checkbox to enable output filtering for any ideas you think are harmful.