7 ms·

I only ever bought Pis because it was a mission focused company. Now that they are in stock-price-go-up mode, I am inclined to buy and promote cheap clones, an

by lrvick 2y ago

I only ever bought Pis because it was a mission focused company. Now that they are in stock-price-go-up mode, I am inclined to buy and promote cheap clones, and I expect most will feel the same.

riv991 2y ago
The foundation still owns the vast majority of the company
- michaelt 2y ago
  Yeah, and the openai nonprofit still owns a majority of the openai for-profit company. Turns out that doesn't mean shit.
  - riv991 2y ago
    You can argue the complete opposite point with Novo Nordisk. It's up to the foundation to use it's influence
- ActionHank 2y ago
  So if the foundation makes decisions that drive stock up in the short term, they make themselves richer? Definitely won't be abused /s
  - nashashmi 2y ago
    Maybe, but I think part of the fear behind the IPO is that some bully type investor like Icahn will do a takeover/weigh-in and mess it up, towards a profit driven enterprise. With major ownership held by someone else, this becomes less likely.
- nashashmi 2y ago
  wait! The foundation sells Pis? What does the for-profit company do? Hell, where did the foundation get its money before?
- account42 2y ago
  And the worth of that stake is now directly tied to stock performance.
louwrentius 2y ago
If you need a simple home server or lab setup, second-hand 1L pc's (tinyminimicro) is a much better value-for-money. I've a ton of Pi4s and one Pi5, but the ease of use, the simplicity of 1L pc's is - for the stated applications - a no-brainer to me.
- mbs159 2y ago
  Or if you don't mind the larger size and you just need a home server, you can get a used NUC.
- steeleyespan 2y ago
  I used a super cheap HP Pavilion laptop that was unbearably slow with Windows, but works great as a Mint server. Then two used/refurbished Dell Optiplex's, great deals!
- JKCalhoun 2y ago
  Do you blow away the OS and install Linux on them? Curious because for me the affordability of a hobbyist PC is offset by the cost of Windows.
  - Levitating 2y ago
    Cost of windows? Why not just use the windows trial. Or buy a license key. Windows license keys are absolutely everywhere. Maybe check the bios from some old laptops you own? At my university we have this massive ewaste bin full of old pcs stickered with probably valid license keys. Though you might be better off sticking with Linux anyway.
  - louwrentius 2y ago
    Yes they run linux just fine.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- dspillett 2y ago
  > second-hand 1L pc's (tinyminimicro) is a much better value-for-money. For initial purchase they certainly offer much better bang-for-buck compared to the Pi4 & Pi5, but do you have any useful links to information about relative power consumption when mostly idle? I currently have a Pi400 (back when I bought that the Pi proper was out of stock everywhere except the scalpers charging >£150/unit for even the low RAM versions, but I found a decent deal on a Pi400 kit) running as a router/firewall with a few other small bits & bobs in containers. I keep considering replacing it with a small PC like that – my main concern being running a core bit of the home network off an SSD, though also having a bit more performance (both IO and CPU) might at times be useful too, and the Pi400 I'd like to reuse somewhere it is visible for “this is what home PCs used to be like when I were a lad” nostalgia reasons. The reasons I haven't so far (other than momentum: the 400 is sat there working quietly needing no interaction aside from the occasional update and paranoia checks of the config/log/other backups) are possible greater electricity use, and great noise if the mini-PC is not entirely passively cooled.
Waterluvian 2y ago
I’m happy to buy whatever satisfies my requirements. But I do anticipate the enshittification will begin.
- amelius 2y ago
  Waiting for the next company to fill the not-yet-enshittified gap.
squarefoot 2y ago
I dumped them after they fought against competition by selling very limited stocks of the Zero at very low prices, possibly at a loss. They released just enough of them so that someone somewhere could always tell that they were the cheapest board available, but in fact they were pretty much unobtanium everywhere, except of course in "friendly" sites and forums where every post about the shortage was immediately replied with "I could buy one at XYZ...", where xyz inevitably turned out to be a shop with none in stock. This happened much before Covid19 and chips shortage hit the market, in fact competition had cheap alternatives in stock and I could buy some NanoPi and OrangePi, but the RPi had much better press. I'm considering to make an exception for the Pico for being a really interesting product, but my last Linux RPi has been the 4 and I don't plan to go further.
- Gormo 2y ago
  What you're describing sounds like ordinary supply chain difficulties, with no indication of any nefarious intention.
- afavour 2y ago
  So they sold all the available stock they had as soon as they got it, at a reasonable price… and that made you dump them?
  - lelanthran 2y ago
    > So they sold all the available stock they had as soon as they got it, at a reasonable price… and that made you dump them? Well, yes, of course? Why burn billable hours on a design I can send to production?
- jbaber 2y ago
  Before the pandemic, I picked them up for $5 regularly at our local friendly computer store. They even had 0w's for $5 as a gimmick (they were supposed to be $10) with purchase limit of 2 or 5 (can't remember). I'd just pick up a couple every time I went to that store. I've got a sandwich bag full of them now. I think it was very much the supply chain snags of pandemic that made them get weird high prices everywhere.
nicce 2y ago
There area already some privacy concerns. New Sony chip is likely embedded for future devices to enable edge processing. Metadata of some processing will start leaking to external cloud whether you want it or not. https://www.engadget.com/sony-investment-will-put-ai-chips-inside-raspberry-pi-boards-083503462.html?guccounter=1 https://www.engadget.com/sony-investment-will-put-ai-chips-i... https://aitrios-promo.wpp.developer.sony.com/en/services/edge-ai https://aitrios-promo.wpp.developer.sony.com/en/services/edg...
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  That’s not built in to the Pi, and is way too expensive. It will almost certainly be a HAT. Complaining about this shows ignorance.
  - nicce 2y ago
    > That’s not built in to the Pi Based on what? Even the linked article title says IN. Maybe they have different models, but based on all the wordings, it is very odd if it is HAT. > Complaining about this shows ignorance. If it is external HAT, then maybe. But until then, maybe not. Edit: There seems to be AI kit available now, but it does not include this: https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/accessories/ai-kit.html https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/accessories/ai-kit...
    - alias_neo 2y ago
      The "IN" probably refers to in one of the camera modules, or some other module/HAT. Raspberry Pis don't use any Sony chips on the SBC, Sony image sensors are on the camera modules, and since they're talking about imaging, this makes perfect sense. Nothing about the Engadget article says to me it'll be on board the Raspberry Pi itself.
    - teamonkey 2y ago
      They're also producing an AI camera. https://www.elektormagazine.com/news/raspberry-pi-monitor-teased-at-embedded-world-2024 https://www.elektormagazine.com/news/raspberry-pi-monitor-te... The original press releases don't say anything about incorporating it into the base Pi hardware and I don't think they would, given that it would add extra cost and most people don't need it.
amelius 2y ago
Add to that their patent of the PIO ports implementation, and I stopped being a fan.
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  You’re assuming that without a patent, the RP2040 wouldn’t immediately have counterfeits flooding the market without any hope of legal action. This has happened with the ATMegas, this has happened with the ESP32s, this has happened with the STM32s, it’s a valid concern. You’re also assuming there wouldn’t be legal-ish pseudo-compatible clones, like the GD32 clone series of the STM32.
  - johndough 2y ago
    > the RP2040 wouldn’t immediately have counterfeits flooding the market without any hope of legal action That would be great. Here is the mission statement straight from raspberrypi.org: > The Raspberry Pi Foundation is a UK-based charity with the mission to enable young people to realise their full potential through the power of computing and digital technologies. Cheaper clones from China would aid that goal, but of course, it flies in the face of a fake non-profit company. And if you are only interested in preventing counterfeits, just slap the trademarked Raspberry logo on there. No need to inhibit progress with patents.
    - gjsman-1000 2y ago
      No, it would be terrible, as technology development is not free. Chinese clones are the epitome of your “enshittification.” They drive prices up for the real product and invade the market with garbage. This has most recently happened in the 3D printing world, with Prusa versus BambuLab. Who actually develops an open source slicer? Who allows 3rd-party firmware? Who contributes to the community? Who abides by open source licenses? Hint: It is not the Chinese company. But at least that GPL-violating, closed-source printer was cheaper.
      - elaus 2y ago
mikae1 2y ago
> I expect most will feel the same. I expect most won't care or even notice. Company ownership is probably not that important to the average consumer. They care about great hardware support and a good "ecosystem" of accessories.
- Draiken 2y ago
  If the consumers were non tech people, I'd agree. But isn't this a product aimed at hackers and tinkerers? I know the first thought that came to my mind was: damn, I'll have to find new hardware when my Pi dies.
  - tucnak 2y ago
    > isn't this a product aimed at hackers and tinkerers? Who told you that?
    - Draiken 2y ago
      It's more about who hasn't talked to me about RPi ever: regular people. Regardless, I posed it as a question exactly because I don't know.
    - karaterobot 2y ago
      > We’re on a mission to put high-performance, low-cost, general-purpose computing platforms in the hands of enthusiasts and engineers all over the world. (https://www.raspberrypi.com/about/ https://www.raspberrypi.com/about/) Maybe they got it from the marketing material?
      - tucnak 2y ago
        So what do we believe marketing materials now? Next up: Google is organising the world's information, NOT selling ads! Raspberry Pi used to be a platform for education first and foremost, but you don't get very far with this so they took on some funding to get ahead. Anti-VC whining is quite tangential to the product itself.
manojlds 2y ago
So what are some good alternatives?
- le-mark 2y ago
  My understanding that as of a couple of years ago most of the “clones” had various issues from pcb layout bugs causing ddram access issues, to poor documentation and poor Linux kernel support. Also availability was often a challenge. Getting a product that just works and is well supported by a community is worth a lot imo. Especially for hobbyist, less so if it’s one’s full time job, but then why are you using these things?
- geokon 2y ago
  My impression is that the coming generation of chips are going to be completely integrated RiSCV chips with RAM integrated on one package. Akin to a microcontroller but that can run Linux. Something like the SG2002 Ex: LicheeRV Nano https://www.cnx-software.com/2024/02/08/licheerv-nano-low-cost-sg2002-risc-v-arm-camera-display-board-wifi-6-ethernet/ https://www.cnx-software.com/2024/02/08/licheerv-nano-low-co... This is sufficient for "automation" hobby projects. You get the full Linux/OS creature comforts without the hassle of doing Arduino or Mircopython. If you want a full desktop experience (or a project with video output) on a SBC it's probably easiest to go for a Intel SBC RPi is getting squeezed from top and bottom price brackets
  - 05 2y ago
    > This is sufficient for "automation" hobby projects. and so is a $2 ESPHome.. For actually working with hardware Arduino is much more convenient than whatever abomination you would write in Python. For anything that needs video output you should use a cheap Android. Anything else is just wasting money.
  - drzaiusx11 2y ago
    Thanks for the licheerv nano link, this thing [1] looks awesome! Display out, built in amp, and 1GHz riscv for $10 USD [2]. Incredible. 1. https://wiki.sipeed.com/hardware/en/lichee/RV_Nano/1_intro.html https://wiki.sipeed.com/hardware/en/lichee/RV_Nano/1_intro.h... 2. https://a.aliexpress.com/_mPnKu26 https://a.aliexpress.com/_mPnKu26
cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
This “a company is great until it goes public, then it is guaranteed to be crappy” mentality only displays a lack of understanding of how ownership structures work. It is more nuanced than what you are making out. An incredibly over-simplified view bred by the knowitall “fuck MBAs” attitude on HN lately.
- piva00 2y ago
  Do you have examples of companies that improved on their mission and values after going public?
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  > knowitall “fuck MBAs” attitude I love HN, but this is insufferable behavior. I also believe it’s why, despite our screeching, we accomplish absolutely nothing. You can’t accomplish anything when you’ve burned all bridges and then yelled “screw you.”
  - Hizonner 2y ago
    Sorry, what was this goal that was supposed to be getting "accomplished"?
- quickslowdown 2y ago
  It may seem dramatic to worry about the future of Raspberry Pi now that it's public, but I personally have seen enough mission driven companies go public, and have observed what happens when profit becomes the primary goal. You'll have to forgive me for seeing this as the beginning of the end of a beloved hobbyist SBC company. I expect the next few generations to be just fine, but eventually shareholders will start to squeeze, and the "profit above all else" mentality infecting public companies will set in, and then the enshittification begins. I'll be looking around at other SBCs, but I'm hapoy enough with my current RPi boards, just no longer confident I'll be happy with then in the future.
- jovial_cavalier 2y ago
  An IPO is a cashout. It's almost always certain that there are many key players in the company who had stake that no longer do. This is not a "fuck MBAs" thing. It is much harder to keep a business aligned with its initial purpose (and even customer interests) when it is public.
nimbius 2y ago
[flagged]
- Angostura 2y ago
  Eh? I bought a Raspberry Pi last October through Amazon in the UK and it cost £62.57 (excluding extras like a power supply and case)
- spacecadet 2y ago
  What are you talking about, you can easily get all models same or next day at typical reseller markup. I keep seeing these comments but not experience this problem. So what gives? #fakenews And children should learn to program edge devices, they are entering a world flooded with them...
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    > And children should learn to program edge devices, they are entering a world flooded with them... Which means little unless laws substantially change to allow them to do anything with them. Right now, edge devices are protected from "tampering" and "unauthorised use" by both technical and legal means.
    - badcppdev 2y ago
      Haha. If you can code then you can create your own devices from scratch. People won't whine about a locked down cloud-only doorbell... they'll make their own. Or you could do that now.
    - spacecadet 2y ago
      lol, thats the most anti-hacker comment I have ever seen. Protected from tampering? What?! "Attempting to prevent tampering".
      - TeMPOraL 2y ago
        Sorry, I'm depressed about SaaS, IoT, secure computing and remote attestation. And everything being rented instead of owned - from the edge devices in question to apartments they're installed in. Good luck with parents letting kids hack on stuff when it violates multiple lease agreements.
lenerdenator 2y ago
I too worry about enshittification, but let's step back here. When you're talking about a price difference that can be made up in a few hours of work, the extra cost can be easily justified, because of the Raspberry Pi's secret sauce. The secret sauce allowed me to search the web for guides on what I wanted to do and have a template to work from. Not having to spend potentially hours or days of my free time figuring out some obscure Linux issue or driver support problem made up for the extra cost of the board. The secret sauce was always the documentation and software support, and if the cheap clones can master that, then the boys in England have a real problem, but that remains to be seen. A lot of that comes not from cost savings inherent to microcomputer technology, but because of the dedication of people who know how to communicate to software engineers and hobbyists. My hope is that most of the price increases apply more to their industrial computing products than their hobbyist ones.
- JKCalhoun 2y ago
  It sounds like you would be okay with a Pi clone though? Like the OP, I have avoided the clones in the past because I wanted to reward the company that were "cause-driven" to do this. I too am less inclined now though.
  - lenerdenator 2y ago
    That depends. Is "clone" a synonym for "compatible"? If so, sure. My concern is, I don't want to spend any time whatsoever messing with stuff like driver or architecture issues. Needing a few repositories for Debian packages is okay, but pushing it. I'm not here to configure a system; I'm here to work on a project I find fun or useful. Ideally I take the latest RaspberryOS and slap it in and it "just works".
bayindirh 2y ago
> I expect most will feel the same. I buy Pis because of their support, stability and out of the box experience is far superior to other cheaper clones. I have tons of cards which are paperweights without Armbian or self-rolled distributions, and even them some are feature-capped because of kernel-dependent closed source modules or out-of-tree drivers. I can still download and install a recent version of RaspberryPi OS to my Raspi 1, customize the image even before it touches the SD card, and remove the card and install to a more recent Pi, and continue working. More importantly, I can upgrade OS from version to version (Armbian doesn't support this, and they say it explicitly for example). OrangePi, Radxa and Asus failed on all these fronts. I still peek and poke OrangePi 5B's Debian image since I can't trust them blindly, but can't use its AI and video (rendering/encoding) accelerators without its official image. Oh, and my OrangePi Zero always crashes within a day or two if I don't practically disable its frequency scaling capability via governor. Even a good cable and adapter which can run a Raspi 3/4 without any hiccups can't make this postage stamp sized thing happy and stable. P.S.: For everyone who thinks RaspberryPi brand and hardware will be enshittified: I'm not saying that it won't happen. What I'm saying is, let's watch how this moat evaporates, and who passes (said moat) and replaces them on their hill.
- Hizonner 2y ago
  Well, you can expect all of those superior things to start going to hell in about a year or two. The enshittification will begin.
  - bayindirh 2y ago
    If that happens, I won't buy them anymore. The boards don't have an expiration date, and I can roll my own distribution "if it comes to that". Have done that in a professional capacity back then, can do it again.
    - account42 2y ago
      With a publicly traded company that's not an if but a when.
127 2y ago
I use the Pis because the ecosystem and documentation. I tried using clones but they're often horrible when it comes anything outside the direct hardware. Also they have a ton of competition. Jumping back to STM32 is pretty trivial if you use open toolchains.
moffkalast 2y ago
> I am inclined to buy and promote cheap clones Are you also inclined to support and develop kernel and OS level software for them? Because the lack of good support is why they remain woefully noncompetitive despite the lower price.
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
  https://libre.computer/ https://libre.computer/ sells SBCs that run mainline linux and boot with UEFI, which is better than Pis could ever say.
  - moffkalast 2y ago
    And once they make one that isn't slower than a Pi 3 I might actually buy it. Their entire lineup is obsolete, they're selling 2GB models like it's 2018 while Orange and Rock Pi are moving onto 16 and 32GB. The only Raspberry Pi models I regret buying are the sub-4GB versions, since you're always one step away from needing swap.
aswanson 2y ago
I want to move to radxa and orange pi but the community & documentation are lacking, along with the sourcing from China.
jasomill 2y ago
The Raspberry Pi Foundation put out a statement[1] on the IPO and how it relates to the mission. In 30 words, instead of receiving a share of the company’s profits each year, we will convert some of our shareholding into an endowment that we will use to fund our educational programmes. While it remains to be seen how the IPO will affect future Raspberry Pi products, it's hard for me to argue against the Foundation diversifying its investments, especially in light of growing competition from cheap clones. [1] https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/what-would-an-ipo-mean-for-the-raspberry-pi-foundation/ https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/what-would-an-ipo-mean-for-...

by lrvick 2y ago

I only ever bought Pis because it was a mission focused company. Now that they are in stock-price-go-up mode, I am inclined to buy and promote cheap clones, and I expect most will feel the same.

riv991 2y ago

The foundation still owns the vast majority of the company

michaelt 2y ago
Yeah, and the openai nonprofit still owns a majority of the openai for-profit company. Turns out that doesn't mean shit.
- riv991 2y ago
  You can argue the complete opposite point with Novo Nordisk. It's up to the foundation to use it's influence
ActionHank 2y ago
So if the foundation makes decisions that drive stock up in the short term, they make themselves richer? Definitely won't be abused /s
- nashashmi 2y ago
  Maybe, but I think part of the fear behind the IPO is that some bully type investor like Icahn will do a takeover/weigh-in and mess it up, towards a profit driven enterprise. With major ownership held by someone else, this becomes less likely.
nashashmi 2y ago
wait! The foundation sells Pis? What does the for-profit company do? Hell, where did the foundation get its money before?
account42 2y ago
And the worth of that stake is now directly tied to stock performance.

louwrentius 2y ago

If you need a simple home server or lab setup, second-hand 1L pc's (tinyminimicro) is a much better value-for-money. I've a ton of Pi4s and one Pi5, but the ease of use, the simplicity of 1L pc's is - for the stated applications - a no-brainer to me.

mbs159 2y ago
Or if you don't mind the larger size and you just need a home server, you can get a used NUC.
steeleyespan 2y ago
I used a super cheap HP Pavilion laptop that was unbearably slow with Windows, but works great as a Mint server. Then two used/refurbished Dell Optiplex's, great deals!
JKCalhoun 2y ago
Do you blow away the OS and install Linux on them? Curious because for me the affordability of a hobbyist PC is offset by the cost of Windows.
- Levitating 2y ago
  Cost of windows? Why not just use the windows trial. Or buy a license key. Windows license keys are absolutely everywhere. Maybe check the bios from some old laptops you own? At my university we have this massive ewaste bin full of old pcs stickered with probably valid license keys. Though you might be better off sticking with Linux anyway.
- louwrentius 2y ago
  Yes they run linux just fine.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
dspillett 2y ago
> second-hand 1L pc's (tinyminimicro) is a much better value-for-money. For initial purchase they certainly offer much better bang-for-buck compared to the Pi4 & Pi5, but do you have any useful links to information about relative power consumption when mostly idle? I currently have a Pi400 (back when I bought that the Pi proper was out of stock everywhere except the scalpers charging >£150/unit for even the low RAM versions, but I found a decent deal on a Pi400 kit) running as a router/firewall with a few other small bits & bobs in containers. I keep considering replacing it with a small PC like that – my main concern being running a core bit of the home network off an SSD, though also having a bit more performance (both IO and CPU) might at times be useful too, and the Pi400 I'd like to reuse somewhere it is visible for “this is what home PCs used to be like when I were a lad” nostalgia reasons. The reasons I haven't so far (other than momentum: the 400 is sat there working quietly needing no interaction aside from the occasional update and paranoia checks of the config/log/other backups) are possible greater electricity use, and great noise if the mini-PC is not entirely passively cooled.

Waterluvian 2y ago

I’m happy to buy whatever satisfies my requirements. But I do anticipate the enshittification will begin.

amelius 2y ago
Waiting for the next company to fill the not-yet-enshittified gap.

squarefoot 2y ago

I dumped them after they fought against competition by selling very limited stocks of the Zero at very low prices, possibly at a loss. They released just enough of them so that someone somewhere could always tell that they were the cheapest board available, but in fact they were pretty much unobtanium everywhere, except of course in "friendly" sites and forums where every post about the shortage was immediately replied with "I could buy one at XYZ...", where xyz inevitably turned out to be a shop with none in stock. This happened much before Covid19 and chips shortage hit the market, in fact competition had cheap alternatives in stock and I could buy some NanoPi and OrangePi, but the RPi had much better press. I'm considering to make an exception for the Pico for being a really interesting product, but my last Linux RPi has been the 4 and I don't plan to go further.

Gormo 2y ago
What you're describing sounds like ordinary supply chain difficulties, with no indication of any nefarious intention.
afavour 2y ago
So they sold all the available stock they had as soon as they got it, at a reasonable price… and that made you dump them?
- lelanthran 2y ago
  > So they sold all the available stock they had as soon as they got it, at a reasonable price… and that made you dump them? Well, yes, of course? Why burn billable hours on a design I can send to production?
jbaber 2y ago
Before the pandemic, I picked them up for $5 regularly at our local friendly computer store. They even had 0w's for $5 as a gimmick (they were supposed to be $10) with purchase limit of 2 or 5 (can't remember). I'd just pick up a couple every time I went to that store. I've got a sandwich bag full of them now. I think it was very much the supply chain snags of pandemic that made them get weird high prices everywhere.

nicce 2y ago

There area already some privacy concerns. New Sony chip is likely embedded for future devices to enable edge processing. Metadata of some processing will start leaking to external cloud whether you want it or not. https://www.engadget.com/sony-investment-will-put-ai-chips-inside-raspberry-pi-boards-083503462.html?guccounter=1 https://www.engadget.com/sony-investment-will-put-ai-chips-i... https://aitrios-promo.wpp.developer.sony.com/en/services/edge-ai https://aitrios-promo.wpp.developer.sony.com/en/services/edg...

gjsman-1000 2y ago
That’s not built in to the Pi, and is way too expensive. It will almost certainly be a HAT. Complaining about this shows ignorance.
- nicce 2y ago
  > That’s not built in to the Pi Based on what? Even the linked article title says IN. Maybe they have different models, but based on all the wordings, it is very odd if it is HAT. > Complaining about this shows ignorance. If it is external HAT, then maybe. But until then, maybe not. Edit: There seems to be AI kit available now, but it does not include this: https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/accessories/ai-kit.html https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/accessories/ai-kit...
  - alias_neo 2y ago
    The "IN" probably refers to in one of the camera modules, or some other module/HAT. Raspberry Pis don't use any Sony chips on the SBC, Sony image sensors are on the camera modules, and since they're talking about imaging, this makes perfect sense. Nothing about the Engadget article says to me it'll be on board the Raspberry Pi itself.
  - teamonkey 2y ago
    They're also producing an AI camera. https://www.elektormagazine.com/news/raspberry-pi-monitor-teased-at-embedded-world-2024 https://www.elektormagazine.com/news/raspberry-pi-monitor-te... The original press releases don't say anything about incorporating it into the base Pi hardware and I don't think they would, given that it would add extra cost and most people don't need it.

amelius 2y ago

Add to that their patent of the PIO ports implementation, and I stopped being a fan.

gjsman-1000 2y ago
You’re assuming that without a patent, the RP2040 wouldn’t immediately have counterfeits flooding the market without any hope of legal action. This has happened with the ATMegas, this has happened with the ESP32s, this has happened with the STM32s, it’s a valid concern. You’re also assuming there wouldn’t be legal-ish pseudo-compatible clones, like the GD32 clone series of the STM32.
- johndough 2y ago
  > the RP2040 wouldn’t immediately have counterfeits flooding the market without any hope of legal action That would be great. Here is the mission statement straight from raspberrypi.org: > The Raspberry Pi Foundation is a UK-based charity with the mission to enable young people to realise their full potential through the power of computing and digital technologies. Cheaper clones from China would aid that goal, but of course, it flies in the face of a fake non-profit company. And if you are only interested in preventing counterfeits, just slap the trademarked Raspberry logo on there. No need to inhibit progress with patents.
  - gjsman-1000 2y ago
    No, it would be terrible, as technology development is not free. Chinese clones are the epitome of your “enshittification.” They drive prices up for the real product and invade the market with garbage. This has most recently happened in the 3D printing world, with Prusa versus BambuLab. Who actually develops an open source slicer? Who allows 3rd-party firmware? Who contributes to the community? Who abides by open source licenses? Hint: It is not the Chinese company. But at least that GPL-violating, closed-source printer was cheaper.
    - elaus 2y ago

mikae1 2y ago

> I expect most will feel the same. I expect most won't care or even notice. Company ownership is probably not that important to the average consumer. They care about great hardware support and a good "ecosystem" of accessories.

Draiken 2y ago
If the consumers were non tech people, I'd agree. But isn't this a product aimed at hackers and tinkerers? I know the first thought that came to my mind was: damn, I'll have to find new hardware when my Pi dies.
- tucnak 2y ago
  > isn't this a product aimed at hackers and tinkerers? Who told you that?
  - Draiken 2y ago
    It's more about who hasn't talked to me about RPi ever: regular people. Regardless, I posed it as a question exactly because I don't know.
  - karaterobot 2y ago
    > We’re on a mission to put high-performance, low-cost, general-purpose computing platforms in the hands of enthusiasts and engineers all over the world. (https://www.raspberrypi.com/about/ https://www.raspberrypi.com/about/) Maybe they got it from the marketing material?
    - tucnak 2y ago
      So what do we believe marketing materials now? Next up: Google is organising the world's information, NOT selling ads! Raspberry Pi used to be a platform for education first and foremost, but you don't get very far with this so they took on some funding to get ahead. Anti-VC whining is quite tangential to the product itself.

manojlds 2y ago

So what are some good alternatives?

le-mark 2y ago
My understanding that as of a couple of years ago most of the “clones” had various issues from pcb layout bugs causing ddram access issues, to poor documentation and poor Linux kernel support. Also availability was often a challenge. Getting a product that just works and is well supported by a community is worth a lot imo. Especially for hobbyist, less so if it’s one’s full time job, but then why are you using these things?
geokon 2y ago
My impression is that the coming generation of chips are going to be completely integrated RiSCV chips with RAM integrated on one package. Akin to a microcontroller but that can run Linux. Something like the SG2002 Ex: LicheeRV Nano https://www.cnx-software.com/2024/02/08/licheerv-nano-low-cost-sg2002-risc-v-arm-camera-display-board-wifi-6-ethernet/ https://www.cnx-software.com/2024/02/08/licheerv-nano-low-co... This is sufficient for "automation" hobby projects. You get the full Linux/OS creature comforts without the hassle of doing Arduino or Mircopython. If you want a full desktop experience (or a project with video output) on a SBC it's probably easiest to go for a Intel SBC RPi is getting squeezed from top and bottom price brackets
- 05 2y ago
  > This is sufficient for "automation" hobby projects. and so is a $2 ESPHome.. For actually working with hardware Arduino is much more convenient than whatever abomination you would write in Python. For anything that needs video output you should use a cheap Android. Anything else is just wasting money.
- drzaiusx11 2y ago
  Thanks for the licheerv nano link, this thing [1] looks awesome! Display out, built in amp, and 1GHz riscv for $10 USD [2]. Incredible. 1. https://wiki.sipeed.com/hardware/en/lichee/RV_Nano/1_intro.html https://wiki.sipeed.com/hardware/en/lichee/RV_Nano/1_intro.h... 2. https://a.aliexpress.com/_mPnKu26 https://a.aliexpress.com/_mPnKu26

cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago

This “a company is great until it goes public, then it is guaranteed to be crappy” mentality only displays a lack of understanding of how ownership structures work. It is more nuanced than what you are making out. An incredibly over-simplified view bred by the knowitall “fuck MBAs” attitude on HN lately.

piva00 2y ago
Do you have examples of companies that improved on their mission and values after going public?
gjsman-1000 2y ago
> knowitall “fuck MBAs” attitude I love HN, but this is insufferable behavior. I also believe it’s why, despite our screeching, we accomplish absolutely nothing. You can’t accomplish anything when you’ve burned all bridges and then yelled “screw you.”
- Hizonner 2y ago
  Sorry, what was this goal that was supposed to be getting "accomplished"?
quickslowdown 2y ago
It may seem dramatic to worry about the future of Raspberry Pi now that it's public, but I personally have seen enough mission driven companies go public, and have observed what happens when profit becomes the primary goal. You'll have to forgive me for seeing this as the beginning of the end of a beloved hobbyist SBC company. I expect the next few generations to be just fine, but eventually shareholders will start to squeeze, and the "profit above all else" mentality infecting public companies will set in, and then the enshittification begins. I'll be looking around at other SBCs, but I'm hapoy enough with my current RPi boards, just no longer confident I'll be happy with then in the future.
jovial_cavalier 2y ago
An IPO is a cashout. It's almost always certain that there are many key players in the company who had stake that no longer do. This is not a "fuck MBAs" thing. It is much harder to keep a business aligned with its initial purpose (and even customer interests) when it is public.

nimbius 2y ago

[flagged]

Angostura 2y ago
Eh? I bought a Raspberry Pi last October through Amazon in the UK and it cost £62.57 (excluding extras like a power supply and case)
spacecadet 2y ago
What are you talking about, you can easily get all models same or next day at typical reseller markup. I keep seeing these comments but not experience this problem. So what gives? #fakenews And children should learn to program edge devices, they are entering a world flooded with them...
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  > And children should learn to program edge devices, they are entering a world flooded with them... Which means little unless laws substantially change to allow them to do anything with them. Right now, edge devices are protected from "tampering" and "unauthorised use" by both technical and legal means.
  - badcppdev 2y ago
    Haha. If you can code then you can create your own devices from scratch. People won't whine about a locked down cloud-only doorbell... they'll make their own. Or you could do that now.
  - spacecadet 2y ago
    lol, thats the most anti-hacker comment I have ever seen. Protected from tampering? What?! "Attempting to prevent tampering".
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      Sorry, I'm depressed about SaaS, IoT, secure computing and remote attestation. And everything being rented instead of owned - from the edge devices in question to apartments they're installed in. Good luck with parents letting kids hack on stuff when it violates multiple lease agreements.

lenerdenator 2y ago

I too worry about enshittification, but let's step back here. When you're talking about a price difference that can be made up in a few hours of work, the extra cost can be easily justified, because of the Raspberry Pi's secret sauce. The secret sauce allowed me to search the web for guides on what I wanted to do and have a template to work from. Not having to spend potentially hours or days of my free time figuring out some obscure Linux issue or driver support problem made up for the extra cost of the board. The secret sauce was always the documentation and software support, and if the cheap clones can master that, then the boys in England have a real problem, but that remains to be seen. A lot of that comes not from cost savings inherent to microcomputer technology, but because of the dedication of people who know how to communicate to software engineers and hobbyists. My hope is that most of the price increases apply more to their industrial computing products than their hobbyist ones.

JKCalhoun 2y ago
It sounds like you would be okay with a Pi clone though? Like the OP, I have avoided the clones in the past because I wanted to reward the company that were "cause-driven" to do this. I too am less inclined now though.
- lenerdenator 2y ago
  That depends. Is "clone" a synonym for "compatible"? If so, sure. My concern is, I don't want to spend any time whatsoever messing with stuff like driver or architecture issues. Needing a few repositories for Debian packages is okay, but pushing it. I'm not here to configure a system; I'm here to work on a project I find fun or useful. Ideally I take the latest RaspberryOS and slap it in and it "just works".

bayindirh 2y ago

> I expect most will feel the same. I buy Pis because of their support, stability and out of the box experience is far superior to other cheaper clones. I have tons of cards which are paperweights without Armbian or self-rolled distributions, and even them some are feature-capped because of kernel-dependent closed source modules or out-of-tree drivers. I can still download and install a recent version of RaspberryPi OS to my Raspi 1, customize the image even before it touches the SD card, and remove the card and install to a more recent Pi, and continue working. More importantly, I can upgrade OS from version to version (Armbian doesn't support this, and they say it explicitly for example). OrangePi, Radxa and Asus failed on all these fronts. I still peek and poke OrangePi 5B's Debian image since I can't trust them blindly, but can't use its AI and video (rendering/encoding) accelerators without its official image. Oh, and my OrangePi Zero always crashes within a day or two if I don't practically disable its frequency scaling capability via governor. Even a good cable and adapter which can run a Raspi 3/4 without any hiccups can't make this postage stamp sized thing happy and stable. P.S.: For everyone who thinks RaspberryPi brand and hardware will be enshittified: I'm not saying that it won't happen. What I'm saying is, let's watch how this moat evaporates, and who passes (said moat) and replaces them on their hill.

Hizonner 2y ago
Well, you can expect all of those superior things to start going to hell in about a year or two. The enshittification will begin.
- bayindirh 2y ago
  If that happens, I won't buy them anymore. The boards don't have an expiration date, and I can roll my own distribution "if it comes to that". Have done that in a professional capacity back then, can do it again.
  - account42 2y ago
    With a publicly traded company that's not an if but a when.

127 2y ago

I use the Pis because the ecosystem and documentation. I tried using clones but they're often horrible when it comes anything outside the direct hardware. Also they have a ton of competition. Jumping back to STM32 is pretty trivial if you use open toolchains.

moffkalast 2y ago

> I am inclined to buy and promote cheap clones Are you also inclined to support and develop kernel and OS level software for them? Because the lack of good support is why they remain woefully noncompetitive despite the lower price.

yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
https://libre.computer/ https://libre.computer/ sells SBCs that run mainline linux and boot with UEFI, which is better than Pis could ever say.
- moffkalast 2y ago
  And once they make one that isn't slower than a Pi 3 I might actually buy it. Their entire lineup is obsolete, they're selling 2GB models like it's 2018 while Orange and Rock Pi are moving onto 16 and 32GB. The only Raspberry Pi models I regret buying are the sub-4GB versions, since you're always one step away from needing swap.

aswanson 2y ago

I want to move to radxa and orange pi but the community & documentation are lacking, along with the sourcing from China.

jasomill 2y ago

The Raspberry Pi Foundation put out a statement[1] on the IPO and how it relates to the mission. In 30 words, instead of receiving a share of the company’s profits each year, we will convert some of our shareholding into an endowment that we will use to fund our educational programmes. While it remains to be seen how the IPO will affect future Raspberry Pi products, it's hard for me to argue against the Foundation diversifying its investments, especially in light of growing competition from cheap clones. [1] https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/what-would-an-ipo-mean-for-the-raspberry-pi-foundation/ https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/what-would-an-ipo-mean-for-...