11 ms·

It is time for more holistic practices in mental health

134 points by Spod_Gaju 2y ago

MattGaiser 2y ago
This push almost seems for want of knowledge. They were preaching the same about obesity for years, which achieved absolutely nothing, and then GLP-1s came along. Turns out that yes, there is indeed a hormone which can reliably be increased to cause weight loss.
- bowsamic 2y ago
  Okay but we haven’t found that for mental health and it may not exist, so what’s your point?
- justinator 2y ago
  "it's not clear how the GLP-1 drugs lead to weight loss" https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/type-2-diabetes/expert-answers/byetta/faq-20057955 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/type-2-diabet... They don't "cause" weight loss at all -- it's mostly an side effect. (sorry to be so pedantic).
  - yareal 2y ago
    They have on label use as weight loss medicine. It might be discovered first as a side effect, but it's genuinely considered a primary desirable effect these days.
    - BobbyJo 2y ago
      I think parent's point was primarily that its not "hormone causes weight loss", its "hormone causes changes to innate drive, which change behavior, which causes weight loss". If you did the same things off the drugs that you did on, you would lose similar weight. Given that, the rational of the original comment makes less sense. A hormone that changed your behavior such that the resulting behavior changes made you happier is far more of an obfuscated ask of modern pharmacology, as there is no behavior change that will reliably fix the problem the same way there is for weight loss (eat less).
- epicureanideal 2y ago
  Sure would be great if they’d find one for muscle mass that wasn’t dangerous or otherwise harmful. And of course, one for mental health. The three put together would make a very interesting society. Add nootropics to the mix and it gets even more interesting.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    they all already exist. Especially the drugs for muscle mass, which are safe and very well characterized.
    - klausa 2y ago
      I'm curious what you mean here, other than potentially anabolic steroids? I would not call these "safe", so I think you might have meant something else?
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        Testosterone and human growth hormone were the the main ones I had in mind, but I think there is much more a specialist could so that would be safe and effective
  - mjbeswick 2y ago
    You don't need drugs to grown muscle, just an active lifestyle; which is also highly beneficial to mental health. Many of peoples physical and mental problems are a result of their sedentary lifestyle.
- rKarpinski 2y ago
  > and then GLP-1s came along. Turns out that yes, there is indeed a hormone which can reliably be increased to cause weight loss. Isn't the effect that it reliably makes you eat less... which many other drugs do such as amphetamines, nicotine etc.
  - gizmo686 2y ago
    Yes. Weight loss is a common side effect of many drugs.
yareal 2y ago
I appreciate this. Suggesting that mental health is "just" a chemical imbalance is maybe addressing a very complicated system with a narrow fix. That said, I'm likely biased to be predisposed to believe that mental health is a complex system based on other beliefs I hold or experiences I have (e.g. having suffered depression myself, having experienced homelessness, believing in the theory of alienation.) But also, I don't know what you do to address systems that doesn't require radical or even revolutionary change. We're a far cry from even applying the mental health practices we do have to everyone who wants them today. To say nothing of the massive social stigmas associated with therapy, depression, and medications.
- bruce511 2y ago
  I concur. Perhaps "mental health" is such a broad diagnosis that talking about remedies for "mental health" may be unhelpful. The remedies for a paranoid schizophrenic may be very different to depression which may be very different to say ADHD. Treating as a disease with a chemical cure does in part remove some of the stigma. But it's really only helpful if it addresses the root cause of the problem. Much of the root of "modern" mental health is "feeling good" as in "I had to step back to protect my mental health" and that's more a social, and view-of-self issue that's best addressed with therapy. So perhaps the categorization of "mental health" is as varied as "physical health" and we can accept that no one solution is going to fix everything.
  - vasco 2y ago
    ADHD isn't even a good diagnosis. We throw these words as if we know what the disease even is and all we need is to figure out the cure, when these diseases have dozens of variations "my ADHD is more like this", the definitions of the disease and classification change all the time. ADHD when I was a kid is very different from ADHD today. So to me the article shouldn't even be "we need to take a wider approach to the cures", it should be "we don't know jack shit about mental health and need way more research".
xlii 2y ago
I agree, but on the other hand I don’t think anyone can do anything. I have a stake in treating ADHD but it’s difficult to even describe what ADHD is to a layperson. Describing the needs is almost impossible as different people have different needs and they often don’t align. What I’m sure of, though, is that “today” is very hostile to mental health. Some people have been focusing on microplastics, impact of drugs, unhealthy food etc, but it seems that everyone are oblivious to impact of health on the mental health. We're overworked, stressed, always improving, forced into activities we don’t enjoy (I’ve heard a term “fit-terrorism” to which I don’t agree but seemingly it exists in some circles; there’s ultra parenthood notion etc.), fed with bullshit coming from social networks, and convinced by talking heads that we are in wrongs and should be doing their rights. It’s tough and it’s damaging all of us.
- ungamedplayer 2y ago
  I sometimes am tempted to do the math to determine what kind of life we would have if we did everything we were supposed to do.
  - vasco 2y ago
    If you believe in determinism you already are doing everything you were supposed to.
    - jahewson 2y ago
      What if it was pre-determined that they would not believe in determinism?
    - PartiallyTyped 2y ago
      > supposed to That assumes there’s intention and that we are “guided”. I think we just are.
      - vasco 2y ago
        You're adding that in. If I drop a ball it's supposed to fall, it doesn't mean gravity guided it.
jl6 2y ago
It does seem sort of obvious that many mental health conditions are tied up in a person’s wider life and lifestyle, not just in brain chemistry. But is this really a revolution in our understanding? Hasn’t psychiatry always taken a broad view of potential causes? People sitting on a couch talking about what’s going on in their lives and somehow being helped by conversing with the psychiatrist? Or is this about non-psychiatrist doctors rushing people onto drugs instead of referring them to psychiatric treatment?
- biorach 2y ago
  You're confusing psychiatry, which is a branch of medicine, with psychoanalysis. This article is about the former. Psychiatry has become heavily focused on prescribing drugs for diagnoses based on the DSM, where only the presenting symptoms are taken into account and interaction with the patient after the initial diagnosis is minimal.
- caddemon 2y ago
  I think the bigger issue currently is we understand so little about the brain. For something like Schizophrenia there is very obviously biological origins - not that environment doesn't have an impact as well, but you're not solving that with behavioral therapy alone. However I think biological psychiatry has sorta thrown the baby out with the bathwater in the way it tries to study these disorders, lumping everyone with psychotic disorders into one basket and doing some one dimensional studies on that. Since we don't really have a foundational understanding of the brain and these are complex (probably multiple distinct under 1 umbrella) diseases, it's difficult to draw many real conclusions. Unfortunately on the flip side it is rare to see professionals that focus on the human side of things think much about biology. So you get a weird gap where people with fancy biology tools are studying very ill-defined phenomena, and people who work on unpacking the psychological phenomena are entirely ignoring the critical underlying biology. Maybe one day the fields will be better bridged, but research that is currently done isn't really abstracted in a way where it's feasible for the two sides to meaningfully inform each other. Plus there are cultural barriers in place.
aljgz 2y ago
It is incredible how bad we are, at the end of the first quarter of 21st century, at having a well planned and executed strategy to improve mental health of people. Compare it to physical health. For instance, everyone is advised to take regular tests (like blood tests). While things can still be improved a lot, this simple proactive measure helps detect many health problems before they cause serious damage. For mental health, we don't do anything until the person is fed up with their struggles and maybe asks for professional help. Even then, in most cases we do not start with a "Triage" process. It took me a long time to even realize that there should be a mental health questionnaire, and ask my psychologist for it. We leave individuals to learn about mental health and take care of it, while there is not even a clear starting point for anyone who wants to learn. Mental health problems, like viral infections, can be contagious. Unlike viral infections, one person with one mental health issue infects others with different types of mental health issues than the one they have. It is incredible how much happiness/productivity/economic value is lost to mental health issues that are manageable with our current knowledge. If our collective goal for the society is to maximize a measure of overall happiness (which I think is a really decent goal), we need to have a better plan. Maybe advances in AI can bring proactive mental health monitoring to more people.
- jahewson 2y ago
  A worthy goal We’re not even close to that, though. The various depression questionnaires used in research haven’t been updated in decades and the questions on them have little overlap. A long way to go.
- logifail 2y ago
  > Compare it to physical health. For instance, everyone is advised to take regular tests (like blood tests). While things can still be improved a lot, this simple proactive measure helps detect many health problems before they cause serious damage. Q: How many people actually take regular blood tests?
  - gravescale 2y ago
    In the UK, only people on certain treatments or under non-interventional observation that require it or private patients. Regular blood tests for normal children and adults (other than the elderly perhaps?) on a purely speculative basis are not a thing. Edit: actually you do get a 5-yearly test after the age of 40 until 65, my mistake. This incudes a finger-prick cholesterol and blood sugar test and may incude a "real" blood test if thought necessary.
can16358p 2y ago
I strongly believe we don't have "mental health problems", yet we have a global style of living in "modern society" that is inherently incompatible with the way we evolved: e.g. office-based daily tasks instead of walking and hunting, foods fabricated to stimulate us instead of what we could find in nature, high buildings and cities with sound/light/air pollution instead of a calm, clean nature, always trying to "optimize for time/money" instead of slow living etc. all eventually end us up in a mentally and physically depleted state. The problem is that none of those factors alone have a direct visible effect, but they accumulate together over years, so it's hard to quantify a specific factor in an isolated manner. As long as we don't change out lifestyle to something simpler fundamentally, I doubt we can really solve problems with any kind of drugs or medical tests etc. I hope a holistic approach will take us back to who we really are, which would gradually solve our both mental and physical health problems.
- tredigi 2y ago
  You may be over-romanticizing the hunter-gatherer times. It wasnt all just a nice summer evening where people did a nice walk in the forest after chilling at the beach. Life was rough, often it was cold and rainy, people were hungry and every little injury could easily mean a horrible death. Constantly worrying how to fill your stomach without getting killed by wolves or a tiger (or a rival tribe) or breaking your foot, or some deity being unhappy with you and sending a thunderstorm. Can't just pop a pill when you have pains or can't sleep. True, mental health likely wasn't much of an issue. But the other issues you got in exchange...
  - can16358p 2y ago
    Of course. I never meant that it was all fun and chill, perhaps life was much harder, and perhaps our brains evolved to cope with that and when there are no natural threats it errs.
- ImHereToVote 2y ago
  Contemporary systems are an organism to themselves. Guided by natural "artificial" selection. Corporations are like aliens trying to terraform the social landscape so they can survive. I can't image what it will be like when they become even more autonomous.
byvirtueoff 2y ago
It’s also incredibly difficult for people with mental health issues to simply get advice to try to “pull themselves up by the bootstraps” by improving their lifestyle when so much of their mind is working against them. Combine that with the fact that hyper individualism is a big factor for loneliness, (and social media is a poor man’s substitute for socializing) and with loneliness being one of the biggest factors in poor mental health, what we have is not just people with problematic lifestyles (exercise, diet, sleep, social support, financial health, purpose) but also a life structure (overworking, drinking, shopping, doomscrolling, etc.) which makes it all too easy to fall back into old patterns of a poor lifestyle. What’s crazy is expecting people with poor mental health to just “fix themselves”. Some may be able to, while others will struggle with it their entire lives without proper support and societal guardrails.
- Physkal 2y ago
  How does one get out of this spiral..
- shepherdjerred 2y ago
  > What’s crazy is expecting people with poor mental health to just “fix themselves”. Some may be able to, while others will struggle with it their entire lives without proper support and societal guardrails. What has helped me is realizing that the only person that can fix me is myself. Nobody is going to do it for you. I realize that's very sucky advice, though, akin to saying "just don't be depressed"
longerd2 2y ago
> during the 2017 Psychedelic Science meeting in Oakland I'm personally really interested in studies with psychedelics. E.g. https://episode-study.de https://episode-study.de for germany. I feel like they could really help in a lot of mental conditions, especially in a controlled setting with a therapist. Therapy with psychedelics could be like speedrunning therapy! That's what many people claim after their experience at least. I do also think widespread use of such substances could drastically change our society, which is also good for mental health, presumably.
mihaaly 2y ago
Concerning NHS I'd be extatic if they listened to my specific and narrow problem before writing paperwork that they do not read later and I have to tell again someone else in that 15 minutes they allocate for me, that would be a first step in my view towards the dreamland of holistic approaches.
- switch007 2y ago
  You took the words out of my mouth. Mental health on the NHS has more or less collapsed under its own weight. All this time limitation, ignoring what you say, forgetting to note important details, pretending at each appointment that there is no history etc is just systemic refusal/inability to offer treatment at the end of the day (not just mental health).
  - mihaaly 2y ago
    My increasing feeling is that the patients' purpose is to provide input for paperwork that gives exuse to write payslips. The patients are for the system, not the other way around. The patients are wrapped around (bounced around, jumped through hoops, etc) the system's needs, not the system is formed around the needs of the patients. All is organized so the system's resources can be used the most optimal way (all hail the St. Key Performance Indicator!). Meanwhile if some curing happens, that's an acceptable byproduct.
    - switch007 2y ago
      I can definitely appreciate that conclusion. We are told to fill in forms, answer questionnaires, attend appointments, wait for callbacks, sign up for waiting lists, read websites, phone these numbers, search for alternative private options... just keeping you busy and distracted. They loved using COVID as an excuse to abolish the concept of face-to-face anything, to keep you even more arms length. I literally said one of my issues is isolation, lack of connections etc and they said "ok we can offer you a phone appointment only". I know it's due to shortages but it was the complete lack of acknowledgement of the situation. A lot of people are definitely getting paid just to manage applications and lists and callbacks and note typing etc without any care being delivered. Just enough to CYA if a relative blames them for anything that happens
huijzer 2y ago
I talk a lot to people who are training to become therapist, to PhD's in psychology, and read a lot of psychology papers. If there is one thing it's time for then it's for academia to get out of their ivory tower and face the real world. As Taleb puts it: “I will repeat the following until I am hoarse: it is contagion that determines the fate of a theory in social science, not its validity.” Or as Yarkoni & Westfall put it: "psychology's near-total focus on explaining the causes of behavior has led much of the field to be populated by research programs that provide intricate theories of psychological mechanism but that have little (or unknown) ability to predict future behaviors with any appreciable accuracy." [1] I personally think it's fair to compare social science research with monks researching a religious text. They can work hard for years without ever coming up with a new idea. So what's the solution? Somehow dogmatism should be reduced. This will probably happen once the government figures out how to align incentives better. Currently, peer review and grant proposals are largely done by academic peers. These peers can strengthen dogmatic ideas. Somehow, there should be a mechanism introduced that counters this. [1]: https://doi.org/10.1177/1745691617693393 https://doi.org/10.1177/1745691617693393
- zer00eyz 2y ago
  > If there is one thing it's time for then it's for academia to get out of their ivory tower and face the real world. I dont disagree but there is a deeper issue with the academic side of things. > Currently, peer review and grant proposals are largely done by academic peers. These peers can strengthen dogmatic ideas. Somehow, there should be a mechanism introduced that counters this. Psych in general is where the whole reproducibility crisis bubble up from. We're paying attention to it everywhere else but the work here is just rotten to the core. If no one replicates, and especially here, we have major issues because everything is fuzzy.
  - somenameforme 2y ago
    While indirectly equivalent, I think the far worse side of the coin than "strengthening dogmatic ideas" is shooting down ideas that run contrary to dogma, precisely because they run contrary to dogma. There are some great examples in science, like relativity, where basically everybody just tossed aside the old and embraced the new. But those are absolutely the exception, rather than the rule. There's a reason no less than Max Planck remarked that, "Science progresses one funeral at a time."
benterix 2y ago
Religion would like to have a word with you. Yes, I'm very serious here. Apart from crooks, fanatics and other vocal minorities, the religious people I met have several advantages. One, more mundane, is a sense of community which works best in smaller groups. Second, a sense of purpose in life and a kind of reference point. Third, when a darker period comes, a source of strength to go through it.
- smokel 2y ago
  It is very unfortunate that religion associated itself with miracles a lot, which are perfectly incompatible with science. It turns out to be pretty hard to come up with a religion that has your listed advantages, and which does not break down under the critical views of science. Ironically, the “God” concept is in the clear, but the bible needs a serious overhaul to be trustworthy again.
  - xboxnolifes 2y ago
    > It is very unfortunate that religion associated itself with miracles a lot, which are perfectly incompatible with science. And yet, there are religious scientists. Just like you can separate your work and personal life, you can separate your religious/spiritual/mental beliefs from your rest of self. You don't need to "prove" the religion to be true for it to be useful. You know what they say about models and their correctness?
- Revery42 2y ago
  Religion is a payday loan against reality. As someone that grew up in a religious household, I am certain that no matter how well-intentioned people are, someone is going to have to foot the bill.
- krapp 2y ago
  None of the advantages you list require belief in the supernatural, or the absolute truth of some sacred thousand-year old text. It's only due to deep cultural conditioning that people assume religion is necessary for community, a sense of purpose or resilience. However, the world is filled with religious people who lack these qualities and non-religious people who possess them. The absolute last thing we need for mental health care is a paradigm that considers demon possession or the wrath of an angry God to be legitimate concerns.
JR1427 2y ago
One thing that has helped me over the last two years is not watching or reading the news (I've haven't done social media in a decade). I know some people will think it is morally wrong of me to not be interested in the world and society. In fact, I used to think as much too, and thought myself terribly clever because I had an Economist subscription. The fact is that I _am_ interested in the world and society, but all I found that keeping up with hour-by-hour events did was stress me out. I don't need to hear about plane crashes, or tedious political events. The only place where I come across news stories now is occasionally on HN, and when talking to other people. Because I am no longer addicted to the news, I am less stressed, and have more time to do the things that make me calm, happy, and fulfilled, rather than stressed. I doubt that my "living under a rock" policy will be permanent - in the future I might develop a better capacity to deal with the stress of current affairs - but for now it is definitely helping me.
- konschubert 2y ago
  If it helps you that’s good and I might do the same. But two things: a) this is a luxury you can afford because you live in a country where you can trust that your house isn’t going to explode tomorrow. b) If everybody did this, a) would quickly no longer be true…
  - JR1427 2y ago
    To clarify, I don't close my ears to everything going on in the outside world. I just don't get my information from news websites or tv stations etc. I still like to talk to people about what is going on. I find that less stressful, maybe because when talking with friends, family, colleagues, we don't tend to use such alarmist language (at least the people I talk to don't). As for point b), I can imagine this might not be true, as long as it really was the case that no-one was informed. Hard to plan and orchestrate bad things without information!
    - konschubert 2y ago
      > As for point b), I can imagine this might not be true, as long as it really was the case that no-one was informed. Hard to plan and orchestrate bad things without information! Sorry, yes. My assumption was that the bad guys will still stay informed, just like the bad guys don't put down their guns because I would prefer us all to be pacifists.
netcan 2y ago
> psychiatric models in the 20th century, centered on the notion of disease... ..mental health conditions are to a large extent, a social construct produced by lifestyles Is the problem medicalization of psychiatry, or is it "sciensification?" How much progres have we actually made in the last 100 years? Medicine, particularly "wellness" is difficult to map onto an experimental framework. Even theoretically testable, Popper-esque theories are hard to formulate. For psychology/psychiatry... pretty much impossible. To the extent that treatment is ever actually science-based... "Science" means a pharmacalogical framework, a drug testing framework. You can substitute exercise, talk therapy or whatnot for drugs but... that approach is going to lead you to conclude "drugs." IRL, practitioners are either entirely nonscientific or extremely narrow... or both. There isn't really a "model of the mind" that's both expansive and scientific. We're dealing with that middle ground of science, philosophy and practical need that tends not to produce knowledge. Without being disparaging, how much actual knowledge has psychiatry gained over the last 100 years?
- biorach 2y ago
  > how much actual knowledge has psychiatry gained over the last 100 years? Some Plus you are conflating psychiatry with theraputic approaches, so that muddies the water. Overall there have been massive advances in pharmacology which have given us an arsenal of drugs In some cases they can be very helpful. However these have been massively over prescribed, especially in the USA There is good empirical evidence that many cases of mental illness have roots in e.g. childhood abuse. There have been a lot of empirical studies that show increased rates of mental illness in childhood abuse survivors, combat veterans and rape victims. There is good empirical evidence that some theraputic approaches can improve outcomes for some people. There does not appear to be any one approach that works for everyone. Many therapists believe in those cases where there is an identifiable cause it is better to keep drugs as a last resort and try to find a therapy that improves things. Certain conditions e.g. schizophrenia, appear to only really respond to a pharmaceutical approach and even then, again, not for all cases. > Even theoretically testable, Popper-esque theories are hard to formulate. For psychology/psychiatry... pretty much impossible. There are models of the mind, of development, of response to trauma. It is possible to test outcomes of therapies without needing a full "model of the mind" Granted, much of the research is of dubious value but some overall trends appear to be solid. I've tried to base this answer on that > To the extent that treatment is ever actually science-based... "Science" means a pharmacalogical framework, a drug testing framework. You can substitute exercise, talk therapy or whatnot for drugs but... that approach is going to lead you to conclude "drugs." I don't think any of that paragraph is well founded
NotGMan 2y ago
The son of Roblox CEO had serious mental issues which were cured by going on a low carb diet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQWh_ofvziE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQWh_ofvziE Diet is extremely underrated, if not probably one of the main causes of mental illness (aside from severe chronic life stress). You can also check Chris Palmer on twitter.
- Spod_Gaju 2y ago
  I’m responding to you here because they flagged another post that you made a comment on. It was about the autoimmune diseases. I have no idea why they flagged that post are there than I wrote the article and I posted it as well. It was interesting to read the feedback with one person saying that because I am not a doctor. I can’t learn anything. And I appreciate what you’re saying here about mental illness because what you’re saying is true. If you go to my Substack, I’m going to talk more about how I use my genetics to discover the cause of my mental illness and how I’m using food to cure it as well as all the other disorders that came along with my mental illness. People have a hard time with creative intelligence and unlearning dogma that’s been taught to them for years. I was hoping in hacker news people would be more open-minded but now I’m seeing that’s not the case.
  - NotGMan 2y ago
    Thanks :) >> I was hoping in hacker news people would be more open-minded but now I’m seeing that’s not the case. Yes this was a bitter pill to swallow for me also: hackers would be open minded right? It's exactly the opposite: many comments that I do like this get downvoted very often heh...more like Sheep News than Hacker News :) But I'm totaly used to it now, though my opinion that "programmers are be smart and wise people" now doesn't have the "wise" part in it anymore...
- smokel 2y ago
  > Diet is extremely underrated According to your comment, it is also extremely overrated. Diet is very complex, and the behaviours associated with it are very complex as well. It is very hard to tell causality from correlation in this context. If someone’s temporary mental problems are clearing up, there may be more room to improve eating habits, and if someone is riding a negative spiral, there might be just a little comfort in eating junk food. Of course we should study the relation between food and mental health more, but I sincerely doubt that reducing sugar intake will cure depression.
cl3misch 2y ago
> How can this situation be changed? First, psychiatry must reduce medicalization as a commitment to doing no harm, by engaging in the multidimensional construction of alternatives to the conventional paradigm, which despite being dominant, is ineffective in the face of the complex challenges that involve mental care, such as stigma, social exclusion, and violation of rights. I don't want to be flippant, especially not when discussing mental health. Still, how can you look at this sentence and think "yep, that's a good way to communicate my message"?
robblbobbl 2y ago
Holistic perspective should always be taken into consideration. Yet, redefining mental health problems is another topic they have to master.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
QuadmasterXLII 2y ago
It's easy to forget that science has found many conditions that affect the brain that, because science can easily treat or prevent them, we no longer consider to be mental health conditions. Off the top of my head, hookworm, syphilis, lead poisoning, various vitamin deficiencies, various prion diseases, thyroid diseases, sleep apnea, ergot poisoning, fetal alcohol syndrome... Sure, there are almost certainly many cases of anxiety, depression, and ADHD that are not amenable to "You have a chemical imbalance, here is a pill to fix it, get on your way." However, society has reaped enormous rewards from the idea common mental issues may have simple and understandable causes that can be treated or prevented in unfeeling, cookie-cutter fashion.
- shepherdjerred 2y ago
  That's interesting. It kinda reminds me of the AI effect [0] in the sense that the goalpost for mental disorders is moved based on the physical causes we discover, and how we might consider the goalpost will be further shifted (in a good way) as our understanding increases. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_effect
Spod_Gaju 2y ago
I am the OP. First, I am glad this post has gotten so much attention and traction. But what if I told you I cured my mental illness at 58 years old, a serious case of Bipolar Disorder Schizoaffective Type that had me on Disability and in and out of psychiatric hospitals since I was in my early 30's? What if I told you it was more than holistic but it was holistic thinking that helped me cure my disorder. Will you all listen to me or write me off by saying that nothing I say is true because I had a mental illness? Will you be like my doctors who do not believe I am better? That I have no more mental illness along with all the neurological issues that came with it? And what if I told you what I have discovered in myself can be applied not only to mental illness but to everything from Cancer to Alzheimer's to ME/CFS and Long COVID? If there is one person here who will take the time and have a creative mind to understand what I am saying I will explain it?
- aflorez 2y ago
  Please expand :)
  - Spod_Gaju 2y ago
    My disorder was caused by too much ATP in the mitochondria and too little in the cytosol. I have a Partial PNP Deficiency[1]. The higher ATP and GTP in my mitochondria causes higher sensitivity to all the G Protein Coupled Receptors[2], this includes the serotonin and dopamine receptors. So any increases in serotonin was exaggerated leading to psychosis and delusions much like someone would have on psilocybin. This was cured by a low calorie, high seafood diet, a lot of walking, and limiting exposure to oxidative stressors like air pollution. Most people however have the opposite problem; too little ATP in the mitochondria and too much in the cytosol. This leads to low energy receptor function. So when that person is exposed to dopamine there is very little reaction so they keep seeking dopamine. Hence we have depression and addiction. In short, changes in the Purinergic pathway cause mood disorders. And this is not even a radical statement, it is just not well known[3]. So you can see why things like SSRIs will work, but stop working after a while. Since nothing is being done to correct the low mitochondrial ATP. Comments so far? [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7338719/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7338719/ [2] https://www.guidetopharmacology.org/GRAC/ReceptorFamiliesForward?type=GPCR https://www.guidetopharmacology.org/GRAC/ReceptorFamiliesFor... [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4262688/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4262688/
srid 2y ago
> Mental health conditions are often caused by physiological imbalance that is socially constructed. Deficits in sleep, nutrition, exercise, introspection, and other pillars of good mental health do not occur in the vacuum, they are produced by how we live. Yes. Asking someone to "exercise" or "eat better" is just addressing the symptoms. The underlying issue is stress (which is not always "socially constructed").

134 points by Spod_Gaju 2y ago

This push almost seems for want of knowledge. They were preaching the same about obesity for years, which achieved absolutely nothing, and then GLP-1s came along. Turns out that yes, there is indeed a hormone which can reliably be increased to cause weight loss.

bowsamic 2y ago
Okay but we haven’t found that for mental health and it may not exist, so what’s your point?
justinator 2y ago
"it's not clear how the GLP-1 drugs lead to weight loss" https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/type-2-diabetes/expert-answers/byetta/faq-20057955 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/type-2-diabet... They don't "cause" weight loss at all -- it's mostly an side effect. (sorry to be so pedantic).
- yareal 2y ago
  They have on label use as weight loss medicine. It might be discovered first as a side effect, but it's genuinely considered a primary desirable effect these days.
  - BobbyJo 2y ago
    I think parent's point was primarily that its not "hormone causes weight loss", its "hormone causes changes to innate drive, which change behavior, which causes weight loss". If you did the same things off the drugs that you did on, you would lose similar weight. Given that, the rational of the original comment makes less sense. A hormone that changed your behavior such that the resulting behavior changes made you happier is far more of an obfuscated ask of modern pharmacology, as there is no behavior change that will reliably fix the problem the same way there is for weight loss (eat less).
epicureanideal 2y ago
Sure would be great if they’d find one for muscle mass that wasn’t dangerous or otherwise harmful. And of course, one for mental health. The three put together would make a very interesting society. Add nootropics to the mix and it gets even more interesting.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  they all already exist. Especially the drugs for muscle mass, which are safe and very well characterized.
  - klausa 2y ago
    I'm curious what you mean here, other than potentially anabolic steroids? I would not call these "safe", so I think you might have meant something else?
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      Testosterone and human growth hormone were the the main ones I had in mind, but I think there is much more a specialist could so that would be safe and effective
- mjbeswick 2y ago
  You don't need drugs to grown muscle, just an active lifestyle; which is also highly beneficial to mental health. Many of peoples physical and mental problems are a result of their sedentary lifestyle.
rKarpinski 2y ago
> and then GLP-1s came along. Turns out that yes, there is indeed a hormone which can reliably be increased to cause weight loss. Isn't the effect that it reliably makes you eat less... which many other drugs do such as amphetamines, nicotine etc.
- gizmo686 2y ago
  Yes. Weight loss is a common side effect of many drugs.

yareal 2y ago

I appreciate this. Suggesting that mental health is "just" a chemical imbalance is maybe addressing a very complicated system with a narrow fix. That said, I'm likely biased to be predisposed to believe that mental health is a complex system based on other beliefs I hold or experiences I have (e.g. having suffered depression myself, having experienced homelessness, believing in the theory of alienation.) But also, I don't know what you do to address systems that doesn't require radical or even revolutionary change. We're a far cry from even applying the mental health practices we do have to everyone who wants them today. To say nothing of the massive social stigmas associated with therapy, depression, and medications.

bruce511 2y ago
I concur. Perhaps "mental health" is such a broad diagnosis that talking about remedies for "mental health" may be unhelpful. The remedies for a paranoid schizophrenic may be very different to depression which may be very different to say ADHD. Treating as a disease with a chemical cure does in part remove some of the stigma. But it's really only helpful if it addresses the root cause of the problem. Much of the root of "modern" mental health is "feeling good" as in "I had to step back to protect my mental health" and that's more a social, and view-of-self issue that's best addressed with therapy. So perhaps the categorization of "mental health" is as varied as "physical health" and we can accept that no one solution is going to fix everything.
- vasco 2y ago
  ADHD isn't even a good diagnosis. We throw these words as if we know what the disease even is and all we need is to figure out the cure, when these diseases have dozens of variations "my ADHD is more like this", the definitions of the disease and classification change all the time. ADHD when I was a kid is very different from ADHD today. So to me the article shouldn't even be "we need to take a wider approach to the cures", it should be "we don't know jack shit about mental health and need way more research".

xlii 2y ago

I agree, but on the other hand I don’t think anyone can do anything. I have a stake in treating ADHD but it’s difficult to even describe what ADHD is to a layperson. Describing the needs is almost impossible as different people have different needs and they often don’t align. What I’m sure of, though, is that “today” is very hostile to mental health. Some people have been focusing on microplastics, impact of drugs, unhealthy food etc, but it seems that everyone are oblivious to impact of health on the mental health. We're overworked, stressed, always improving, forced into activities we don’t enjoy (I’ve heard a term “fit-terrorism” to which I don’t agree but seemingly it exists in some circles; there’s ultra parenthood notion etc.), fed with bullshit coming from social networks, and convinced by talking heads that we are in wrongs and should be doing their rights. It’s tough and it’s damaging all of us.

ungamedplayer 2y ago
I sometimes am tempted to do the math to determine what kind of life we would have if we did everything we were supposed to do.
- vasco 2y ago
  If you believe in determinism you already are doing everything you were supposed to.
  - jahewson 2y ago
    What if it was pre-determined that they would not believe in determinism?
  - PartiallyTyped 2y ago
    > supposed to That assumes there’s intention and that we are “guided”. I think we just are.
    - vasco 2y ago
      You're adding that in. If I drop a ball it's supposed to fall, it doesn't mean gravity guided it.

jl6 2y ago

It does seem sort of obvious that many mental health conditions are tied up in a person’s wider life and lifestyle, not just in brain chemistry. But is this really a revolution in our understanding? Hasn’t psychiatry always taken a broad view of potential causes? People sitting on a couch talking about what’s going on in their lives and somehow being helped by conversing with the psychiatrist? Or is this about non-psychiatrist doctors rushing people onto drugs instead of referring them to psychiatric treatment?

biorach 2y ago
You're confusing psychiatry, which is a branch of medicine, with psychoanalysis. This article is about the former. Psychiatry has become heavily focused on prescribing drugs for diagnoses based on the DSM, where only the presenting symptoms are taken into account and interaction with the patient after the initial diagnosis is minimal.
caddemon 2y ago
I think the bigger issue currently is we understand so little about the brain. For something like Schizophrenia there is very obviously biological origins - not that environment doesn't have an impact as well, but you're not solving that with behavioral therapy alone. However I think biological psychiatry has sorta thrown the baby out with the bathwater in the way it tries to study these disorders, lumping everyone with psychotic disorders into one basket and doing some one dimensional studies on that. Since we don't really have a foundational understanding of the brain and these are complex (probably multiple distinct under 1 umbrella) diseases, it's difficult to draw many real conclusions. Unfortunately on the flip side it is rare to see professionals that focus on the human side of things think much about biology. So you get a weird gap where people with fancy biology tools are studying very ill-defined phenomena, and people who work on unpacking the psychological phenomena are entirely ignoring the critical underlying biology. Maybe one day the fields will be better bridged, but research that is currently done isn't really abstracted in a way where it's feasible for the two sides to meaningfully inform each other. Plus there are cultural barriers in place.

aljgz 2y ago

It is incredible how bad we are, at the end of the first quarter of 21st century, at having a well planned and executed strategy to improve mental health of people. Compare it to physical health. For instance, everyone is advised to take regular tests (like blood tests). While things can still be improved a lot, this simple proactive measure helps detect many health problems before they cause serious damage. For mental health, we don't do anything until the person is fed up with their struggles and maybe asks for professional help. Even then, in most cases we do not start with a "Triage" process. It took me a long time to even realize that there should be a mental health questionnaire, and ask my psychologist for it. We leave individuals to learn about mental health and take care of it, while there is not even a clear starting point for anyone who wants to learn. Mental health problems, like viral infections, can be contagious. Unlike viral infections, one person with one mental health issue infects others with different types of mental health issues than the one they have. It is incredible how much happiness/productivity/economic value is lost to mental health issues that are manageable with our current knowledge. If our collective goal for the society is to maximize a measure of overall happiness (which I think is a really decent goal), we need to have a better plan. Maybe advances in AI can bring proactive mental health monitoring to more people.

jahewson 2y ago
A worthy goal We’re not even close to that, though. The various depression questionnaires used in research haven’t been updated in decades and the questions on them have little overlap. A long way to go.
logifail 2y ago
> Compare it to physical health. For instance, everyone is advised to take regular tests (like blood tests). While things can still be improved a lot, this simple proactive measure helps detect many health problems before they cause serious damage. Q: How many people actually take regular blood tests?
- gravescale 2y ago
  In the UK, only people on certain treatments or under non-interventional observation that require it or private patients. Regular blood tests for normal children and adults (other than the elderly perhaps?) on a purely speculative basis are not a thing. Edit: actually you do get a 5-yearly test after the age of 40 until 65, my mistake. This incudes a finger-prick cholesterol and blood sugar test and may incude a "real" blood test if thought necessary.

can16358p 2y ago

I strongly believe we don't have "mental health problems", yet we have a global style of living in "modern society" that is inherently incompatible with the way we evolved: e.g. office-based daily tasks instead of walking and hunting, foods fabricated to stimulate us instead of what we could find in nature, high buildings and cities with sound/light/air pollution instead of a calm, clean nature, always trying to "optimize for time/money" instead of slow living etc. all eventually end us up in a mentally and physically depleted state. The problem is that none of those factors alone have a direct visible effect, but they accumulate together over years, so it's hard to quantify a specific factor in an isolated manner. As long as we don't change out lifestyle to something simpler fundamentally, I doubt we can really solve problems with any kind of drugs or medical tests etc. I hope a holistic approach will take us back to who we really are, which would gradually solve our both mental and physical health problems.

tredigi 2y ago
You may be over-romanticizing the hunter-gatherer times. It wasnt all just a nice summer evening where people did a nice walk in the forest after chilling at the beach. Life was rough, often it was cold and rainy, people were hungry and every little injury could easily mean a horrible death. Constantly worrying how to fill your stomach without getting killed by wolves or a tiger (or a rival tribe) or breaking your foot, or some deity being unhappy with you and sending a thunderstorm. Can't just pop a pill when you have pains or can't sleep. True, mental health likely wasn't much of an issue. But the other issues you got in exchange...
- can16358p 2y ago
  Of course. I never meant that it was all fun and chill, perhaps life was much harder, and perhaps our brains evolved to cope with that and when there are no natural threats it errs.
ImHereToVote 2y ago
Contemporary systems are an organism to themselves. Guided by natural "artificial" selection. Corporations are like aliens trying to terraform the social landscape so they can survive. I can't image what it will be like when they become even more autonomous.

byvirtueoff 2y ago

It’s also incredibly difficult for people with mental health issues to simply get advice to try to “pull themselves up by the bootstraps” by improving their lifestyle when so much of their mind is working against them. Combine that with the fact that hyper individualism is a big factor for loneliness, (and social media is a poor man’s substitute for socializing) and with loneliness being one of the biggest factors in poor mental health, what we have is not just people with problematic lifestyles (exercise, diet, sleep, social support, financial health, purpose) but also a life structure (overworking, drinking, shopping, doomscrolling, etc.) which makes it all too easy to fall back into old patterns of a poor lifestyle. What’s crazy is expecting people with poor mental health to just “fix themselves”. Some may be able to, while others will struggle with it their entire lives without proper support and societal guardrails.

Physkal 2y ago
How does one get out of this spiral..
shepherdjerred 2y ago
> What’s crazy is expecting people with poor mental health to just “fix themselves”. Some may be able to, while others will struggle with it their entire lives without proper support and societal guardrails. What has helped me is realizing that the only person that can fix me is myself. Nobody is going to do it for you. I realize that's very sucky advice, though, akin to saying "just don't be depressed"

longerd2 2y ago

> during the 2017 Psychedelic Science meeting in Oakland I'm personally really interested in studies with psychedelics. E.g. https://episode-study.de https://episode-study.de for germany. I feel like they could really help in a lot of mental conditions, especially in a controlled setting with a therapist. Therapy with psychedelics could be like speedrunning therapy! That's what many people claim after their experience at least. I do also think widespread use of such substances could drastically change our society, which is also good for mental health, presumably.

mihaaly 2y ago

Concerning NHS I'd be extatic if they listened to my specific and narrow problem before writing paperwork that they do not read later and I have to tell again someone else in that 15 minutes they allocate for me, that would be a first step in my view towards the dreamland of holistic approaches.

switch007 2y ago
You took the words out of my mouth. Mental health on the NHS has more or less collapsed under its own weight. All this time limitation, ignoring what you say, forgetting to note important details, pretending at each appointment that there is no history etc is just systemic refusal/inability to offer treatment at the end of the day (not just mental health).
- mihaaly 2y ago
  My increasing feeling is that the patients' purpose is to provide input for paperwork that gives exuse to write payslips. The patients are for the system, not the other way around. The patients are wrapped around (bounced around, jumped through hoops, etc) the system's needs, not the system is formed around the needs of the patients. All is organized so the system's resources can be used the most optimal way (all hail the St. Key Performance Indicator!). Meanwhile if some curing happens, that's an acceptable byproduct.
  - switch007 2y ago
    I can definitely appreciate that conclusion. We are told to fill in forms, answer questionnaires, attend appointments, wait for callbacks, sign up for waiting lists, read websites, phone these numbers, search for alternative private options... just keeping you busy and distracted. They loved using COVID as an excuse to abolish the concept of face-to-face anything, to keep you even more arms length. I literally said one of my issues is isolation, lack of connections etc and they said "ok we can offer you a phone appointment only". I know it's due to shortages but it was the complete lack of acknowledgement of the situation. A lot of people are definitely getting paid just to manage applications and lists and callbacks and note typing etc without any care being delivered. Just enough to CYA if a relative blames them for anything that happens

huijzer 2y ago

I talk a lot to people who are training to become therapist, to PhD's in psychology, and read a lot of psychology papers. If there is one thing it's time for then it's for academia to get out of their ivory tower and face the real world. As Taleb puts it: “I will repeat the following until I am hoarse: it is contagion that determines the fate of a theory in social science, not its validity.” Or as Yarkoni & Westfall put it: "psychology's near-total focus on explaining the causes of behavior has led much of the field to be populated by research programs that provide intricate theories of psychological mechanism but that have little (or unknown) ability to predict future behaviors with any appreciable accuracy." [1] I personally think it's fair to compare social science research with monks researching a religious text. They can work hard for years without ever coming up with a new idea. So what's the solution? Somehow dogmatism should be reduced. This will probably happen once the government figures out how to align incentives better. Currently, peer review and grant proposals are largely done by academic peers. These peers can strengthen dogmatic ideas. Somehow, there should be a mechanism introduced that counters this. [1]: https://doi.org/10.1177/1745691617693393 https://doi.org/10.1177/1745691617693393

zer00eyz 2y ago
> If there is one thing it's time for then it's for academia to get out of their ivory tower and face the real world. I dont disagree but there is a deeper issue with the academic side of things. > Currently, peer review and grant proposals are largely done by academic peers. These peers can strengthen dogmatic ideas. Somehow, there should be a mechanism introduced that counters this. Psych in general is where the whole reproducibility crisis bubble up from. We're paying attention to it everywhere else but the work here is just rotten to the core. If no one replicates, and especially here, we have major issues because everything is fuzzy.
- somenameforme 2y ago
  While indirectly equivalent, I think the far worse side of the coin than "strengthening dogmatic ideas" is shooting down ideas that run contrary to dogma, precisely because they run contrary to dogma. There are some great examples in science, like relativity, where basically everybody just tossed aside the old and embraced the new. But those are absolutely the exception, rather than the rule. There's a reason no less than Max Planck remarked that, "Science progresses one funeral at a time."

benterix 2y ago

Religion would like to have a word with you. Yes, I'm very serious here. Apart from crooks, fanatics and other vocal minorities, the religious people I met have several advantages. One, more mundane, is a sense of community which works best in smaller groups. Second, a sense of purpose in life and a kind of reference point. Third, when a darker period comes, a source of strength to go through it.

smokel 2y ago
It is very unfortunate that religion associated itself with miracles a lot, which are perfectly incompatible with science. It turns out to be pretty hard to come up with a religion that has your listed advantages, and which does not break down under the critical views of science. Ironically, the “God” concept is in the clear, but the bible needs a serious overhaul to be trustworthy again.
- xboxnolifes 2y ago
  > It is very unfortunate that religion associated itself with miracles a lot, which are perfectly incompatible with science. And yet, there are religious scientists. Just like you can separate your work and personal life, you can separate your religious/spiritual/mental beliefs from your rest of self. You don't need to "prove" the religion to be true for it to be useful. You know what they say about models and their correctness?
Revery42 2y ago
Religion is a payday loan against reality. As someone that grew up in a religious household, I am certain that no matter how well-intentioned people are, someone is going to have to foot the bill.
krapp 2y ago
None of the advantages you list require belief in the supernatural, or the absolute truth of some sacred thousand-year old text. It's only due to deep cultural conditioning that people assume religion is necessary for community, a sense of purpose or resilience. However, the world is filled with religious people who lack these qualities and non-religious people who possess them. The absolute last thing we need for mental health care is a paradigm that considers demon possession or the wrath of an angry God to be legitimate concerns.

JR1427 2y ago

One thing that has helped me over the last two years is not watching or reading the news (I've haven't done social media in a decade). I know some people will think it is morally wrong of me to not be interested in the world and society. In fact, I used to think as much too, and thought myself terribly clever because I had an Economist subscription. The fact is that I _am_ interested in the world and society, but all I found that keeping up with hour-by-hour events did was stress me out. I don't need to hear about plane crashes, or tedious political events. The only place where I come across news stories now is occasionally on HN, and when talking to other people. Because I am no longer addicted to the news, I am less stressed, and have more time to do the things that make me calm, happy, and fulfilled, rather than stressed. I doubt that my "living under a rock" policy will be permanent - in the future I might develop a better capacity to deal with the stress of current affairs - but for now it is definitely helping me.

konschubert 2y ago
If it helps you that’s good and I might do the same. But two things: a) this is a luxury you can afford because you live in a country where you can trust that your house isn’t going to explode tomorrow. b) If everybody did this, a) would quickly no longer be true…
- JR1427 2y ago
  To clarify, I don't close my ears to everything going on in the outside world. I just don't get my information from news websites or tv stations etc. I still like to talk to people about what is going on. I find that less stressful, maybe because when talking with friends, family, colleagues, we don't tend to use such alarmist language (at least the people I talk to don't). As for point b), I can imagine this might not be true, as long as it really was the case that no-one was informed. Hard to plan and orchestrate bad things without information!
  - konschubert 2y ago
    > As for point b), I can imagine this might not be true, as long as it really was the case that no-one was informed. Hard to plan and orchestrate bad things without information! Sorry, yes. My assumption was that the bad guys will still stay informed, just like the bad guys don't put down their guns because I would prefer us all to be pacifists.

netcan 2y ago

> psychiatric models in the 20th century, centered on the notion of disease... ..mental health conditions are to a large extent, a social construct produced by lifestyles Is the problem medicalization of psychiatry, or is it "sciensification?" How much progres have we actually made in the last 100 years? Medicine, particularly "wellness" is difficult to map onto an experimental framework. Even theoretically testable, Popper-esque theories are hard to formulate. For psychology/psychiatry... pretty much impossible. To the extent that treatment is ever actually science-based... "Science" means a pharmacalogical framework, a drug testing framework. You can substitute exercise, talk therapy or whatnot for drugs but... that approach is going to lead you to conclude "drugs." IRL, practitioners are either entirely nonscientific or extremely narrow... or both. There isn't really a "model of the mind" that's both expansive and scientific. We're dealing with that middle ground of science, philosophy and practical need that tends not to produce knowledge. Without being disparaging, how much actual knowledge has psychiatry gained over the last 100 years?

biorach 2y ago
> how much actual knowledge has psychiatry gained over the last 100 years? Some Plus you are conflating psychiatry with theraputic approaches, so that muddies the water. Overall there have been massive advances in pharmacology which have given us an arsenal of drugs In some cases they can be very helpful. However these have been massively over prescribed, especially in the USA There is good empirical evidence that many cases of mental illness have roots in e.g. childhood abuse. There have been a lot of empirical studies that show increased rates of mental illness in childhood abuse survivors, combat veterans and rape victims. There is good empirical evidence that some theraputic approaches can improve outcomes for some people. There does not appear to be any one approach that works for everyone. Many therapists believe in those cases where there is an identifiable cause it is better to keep drugs as a last resort and try to find a therapy that improves things. Certain conditions e.g. schizophrenia, appear to only really respond to a pharmaceutical approach and even then, again, not for all cases. > Even theoretically testable, Popper-esque theories are hard to formulate. For psychology/psychiatry... pretty much impossible. There are models of the mind, of development, of response to trauma. It is possible to test outcomes of therapies without needing a full "model of the mind" Granted, much of the research is of dubious value but some overall trends appear to be solid. I've tried to base this answer on that > To the extent that treatment is ever actually science-based... "Science" means a pharmacalogical framework, a drug testing framework. You can substitute exercise, talk therapy or whatnot for drugs but... that approach is going to lead you to conclude "drugs." I don't think any of that paragraph is well founded

NotGMan 2y ago

The son of Roblox CEO had serious mental issues which were cured by going on a low carb diet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQWh_ofvziE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQWh_ofvziE Diet is extremely underrated, if not probably one of the main causes of mental illness (aside from severe chronic life stress). You can also check Chris Palmer on twitter.

Spod_Gaju 2y ago
I’m responding to you here because they flagged another post that you made a comment on. It was about the autoimmune diseases. I have no idea why they flagged that post are there than I wrote the article and I posted it as well. It was interesting to read the feedback with one person saying that because I am not a doctor. I can’t learn anything. And I appreciate what you’re saying here about mental illness because what you’re saying is true. If you go to my Substack, I’m going to talk more about how I use my genetics to discover the cause of my mental illness and how I’m using food to cure it as well as all the other disorders that came along with my mental illness. People have a hard time with creative intelligence and unlearning dogma that’s been taught to them for years. I was hoping in hacker news people would be more open-minded but now I’m seeing that’s not the case.
- NotGMan 2y ago
  Thanks :) >> I was hoping in hacker news people would be more open-minded but now I’m seeing that’s not the case. Yes this was a bitter pill to swallow for me also: hackers would be open minded right? It's exactly the opposite: many comments that I do like this get downvoted very often heh...more like Sheep News than Hacker News :) But I'm totaly used to it now, though my opinion that "programmers are be smart and wise people" now doesn't have the "wise" part in it anymore...
smokel 2y ago
> Diet is extremely underrated According to your comment, it is also extremely overrated. Diet is very complex, and the behaviours associated with it are very complex as well. It is very hard to tell causality from correlation in this context. If someone’s temporary mental problems are clearing up, there may be more room to improve eating habits, and if someone is riding a negative spiral, there might be just a little comfort in eating junk food. Of course we should study the relation between food and mental health more, but I sincerely doubt that reducing sugar intake will cure depression.

cl3misch 2y ago

> How can this situation be changed? First, psychiatry must reduce medicalization as a commitment to doing no harm, by engaging in the multidimensional construction of alternatives to the conventional paradigm, which despite being dominant, is ineffective in the face of the complex challenges that involve mental care, such as stigma, social exclusion, and violation of rights. I don't want to be flippant, especially not when discussing mental health. Still, how can you look at this sentence and think "yep, that's a good way to communicate my message"?

robblbobbl 2y ago

Holistic perspective should always be taken into consideration. Yet, redefining mental health problems is another topic they have to master.

deleted 2y ago

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QuadmasterXLII 2y ago

It's easy to forget that science has found many conditions that affect the brain that, because science can easily treat or prevent them, we no longer consider to be mental health conditions. Off the top of my head, hookworm, syphilis, lead poisoning, various vitamin deficiencies, various prion diseases, thyroid diseases, sleep apnea, ergot poisoning, fetal alcohol syndrome... Sure, there are almost certainly many cases of anxiety, depression, and ADHD that are not amenable to "You have a chemical imbalance, here is a pill to fix it, get on your way." However, society has reaped enormous rewards from the idea common mental issues may have simple and understandable causes that can be treated or prevented in unfeeling, cookie-cutter fashion.

shepherdjerred 2y ago
That's interesting. It kinda reminds me of the AI effect [0] in the sense that the goalpost for mental disorders is moved based on the physical causes we discover, and how we might consider the goalpost will be further shifted (in a good way) as our understanding increases. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_effect

Spod_Gaju 2y ago

I am the OP. First, I am glad this post has gotten so much attention and traction. But what if I told you I cured my mental illness at 58 years old, a serious case of Bipolar Disorder Schizoaffective Type that had me on Disability and in and out of psychiatric hospitals since I was in my early 30's? What if I told you it was more than holistic but it was holistic thinking that helped me cure my disorder. Will you all listen to me or write me off by saying that nothing I say is true because I had a mental illness? Will you be like my doctors who do not believe I am better? That I have no more mental illness along with all the neurological issues that came with it? And what if I told you what I have discovered in myself can be applied not only to mental illness but to everything from Cancer to Alzheimer's to ME/CFS and Long COVID? If there is one person here who will take the time and have a creative mind to understand what I am saying I will explain it?

aflorez 2y ago
Please expand :)
- Spod_Gaju 2y ago
  My disorder was caused by too much ATP in the mitochondria and too little in the cytosol. I have a Partial PNP Deficiency[1]. The higher ATP and GTP in my mitochondria causes higher sensitivity to all the G Protein Coupled Receptors[2], this includes the serotonin and dopamine receptors. So any increases in serotonin was exaggerated leading to psychosis and delusions much like someone would have on psilocybin. This was cured by a low calorie, high seafood diet, a lot of walking, and limiting exposure to oxidative stressors like air pollution. Most people however have the opposite problem; too little ATP in the mitochondria and too much in the cytosol. This leads to low energy receptor function. So when that person is exposed to dopamine there is very little reaction so they keep seeking dopamine. Hence we have depression and addiction. In short, changes in the Purinergic pathway cause mood disorders. And this is not even a radical statement, it is just not well known[3]. So you can see why things like SSRIs will work, but stop working after a while. Since nothing is being done to correct the low mitochondrial ATP. Comments so far? [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7338719/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7338719/ [2] https://www.guidetopharmacology.org/GRAC/ReceptorFamiliesForward?type=GPCR https://www.guidetopharmacology.org/GRAC/ReceptorFamiliesFor... [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4262688/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4262688/

srid 2y ago

> Mental health conditions are often caused by physiological imbalance that is socially constructed. Deficits in sleep, nutrition, exercise, introspection, and other pillars of good mental health do not occur in the vacuum, they are produced by how we live. Yes. Asking someone to "exercise" or "eat better" is just addressing the symptoms. The underlying issue is stress (which is not always "socially constructed").