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The beatings will continue until people actually modify their buying behavior on the basis of concerns like privacy and autonomy. Right now nobody cares, where

by api 2y ago

The beatings will continue until people actually modify their buying behavior on the basis of concerns like privacy and autonomy. Right now nobody cares, where "cares" is defined as "alters buying behavior." If you don't alter your buying behavior in response to this stuff you don't "care."

34679 2y ago
I agree with you, but.. If the world's largest window manufacturer added a clause that they could send employees to your home to look through your windows at any time, day or night, the government would likely step in and put a stop to it. I don't see how this is any different. We have privacy laws and consumer protection agencies. They are failing us.
- hm-nah 2y ago
  Hahaaha! “Windows” is the absolute PERFECT analogy for this. Microsoft Windows.
- api 2y ago
  That's because we have a well established sense of a boundary between your home and the rest of the world. Your home is private property. We basically threw that away in computing in exchange for ease of use.
- caseyy 2y ago
  I feel like it would take years and much debate for most governments to step in to be honest. Just think of the stock market if the largest window manufacturer has an unprofitable quarter!
- shrimp_emoji 2y ago
  Yep. The solution is government regulation. Vote with your votes, not your wallet. (The latter is just pain for ephemeral gain, if any gain at all. Laws are actual gains.)
- raincom 2y ago
  The government wants to use the data collected by these giant corporations. At least in the US, third-party doctrine allows for the govt to snoop on people--esp useful if they want to go after opponents.
dataflow 2y ago
> Right now nobody cares, where "cares" is defined as "alters buying behavior." You're assuming equivalents exist which don't have the downsides but to have the same upsides. They don't. When there's no viable alternative people are just forced to do things they don't like.
- api 2y ago
  Pixelmator on macOS is decent. If people are not willing to make trade-offs or sacrifices, this also means they don't care enough for companies to listen.
  - dataflow 2y ago
    In what world do you live in that you think it's impossible for the market power dynamics to be unfair and exploitative?
    - api 2y ago
      That's not what I mean. What I mean is that at least some people have to stand up to that unfairness and exploitativeness. When blacks protested bus segregation in the South, they boycotted the busses. That meant they had to walk. It worked. It would be a better more just world if people did not have to make these kinds of sacrifices to be heard, but we don't live in a utopia. We live in a messy real world full of people being assholes and broken systems. In this case the sacrifice is not having to walk in searing heat in the summer while being jeered at by racist assholes. The sacrifice is having to learn a new image editor. We can do this.
      - dataflow 2y ago
        > That's not what I mean. What I mean is that at least some people have to stand up to that unfairness and exploitativeness. How much is "some"? Lots of people bought Affinity products, despite them lacking some critical features that folks need. And now Affinity had been bought by another company that will likely take it the way of Adobe. None of this ever stood a chance of dethroning Adobe before, and it certainly won't now. What percentage of the users do you realistically expect should be willing to risk their income over this, and for how long?
acqq 2y ago
That's what Doctorow calls "a cartoonish vision of markets in which “the customer is king” and successful businesses are those who cater to their customers." In reality, the capitalists also don't care, _when they can get away with it._ "To understand whom a platform treats well and whom it abuses, look not to who pays it and who doesn’t. Instead, ask yourself: who has the platform managed to lock in? " etc: https://doctorow.medium.com/https-pluralistic-net-2024-04-22-kargo-kult-kaptialism-dont-buy-it-1ec41b2c97fd https://doctorow.medium.com/https-pluralistic-net-2024-04-22...
mathgradthrow 2y ago
perhaps, you might even argue, this is an area where government regulation may be able to do some good.

by api 2y ago

34679 2y ago

I agree with you, but.. If the world's largest window manufacturer added a clause that they could send employees to your home to look through your windows at any time, day or night, the government would likely step in and put a stop to it. I don't see how this is any different. We have privacy laws and consumer protection agencies. They are failing us.

hm-nah 2y ago
Hahaaha! “Windows” is the absolute PERFECT analogy for this. Microsoft Windows.
api 2y ago
That's because we have a well established sense of a boundary between your home and the rest of the world. Your home is private property. We basically threw that away in computing in exchange for ease of use.
caseyy 2y ago
I feel like it would take years and much debate for most governments to step in to be honest. Just think of the stock market if the largest window manufacturer has an unprofitable quarter!
shrimp_emoji 2y ago
Yep. The solution is government regulation. Vote with your votes, not your wallet. (The latter is just pain for ephemeral gain, if any gain at all. Laws are actual gains.)
raincom 2y ago
The government wants to use the data collected by these giant corporations. At least in the US, third-party doctrine allows for the govt to snoop on people--esp useful if they want to go after opponents.

dataflow 2y ago

> Right now nobody cares, where "cares" is defined as "alters buying behavior." You're assuming equivalents exist which don't have the downsides but to have the same upsides. They don't. When there's no viable alternative people are just forced to do things they don't like.

api 2y ago
Pixelmator on macOS is decent. If people are not willing to make trade-offs or sacrifices, this also means they don't care enough for companies to listen.
- dataflow 2y ago
  In what world do you live in that you think it's impossible for the market power dynamics to be unfair and exploitative?
  - api 2y ago
    That's not what I mean. What I mean is that at least some people have to stand up to that unfairness and exploitativeness. When blacks protested bus segregation in the South, they boycotted the busses. That meant they had to walk. It worked. It would be a better more just world if people did not have to make these kinds of sacrifices to be heard, but we don't live in a utopia. We live in a messy real world full of people being assholes and broken systems. In this case the sacrifice is not having to walk in searing heat in the summer while being jeered at by racist assholes. The sacrifice is having to learn a new image editor. We can do this.
    - dataflow 2y ago
      > That's not what I mean. What I mean is that at least some people have to stand up to that unfairness and exploitativeness. How much is "some"? Lots of people bought Affinity products, despite them lacking some critical features that folks need. And now Affinity had been bought by another company that will likely take it the way of Adobe. None of this ever stood a chance of dethroning Adobe before, and it certainly won't now. What percentage of the users do you realistically expect should be willing to risk their income over this, and for how long?

acqq 2y ago

That's what Doctorow calls "a cartoonish vision of markets in which “the customer is king” and successful businesses are those who cater to their customers." In reality, the capitalists also don't care, _when they can get away with it._ "To understand whom a platform treats well and whom it abuses, look not to who pays it and who doesn’t. Instead, ask yourself: who has the platform managed to lock in? " etc: https://doctorow.medium.com/https-pluralistic-net-2024-04-22-kargo-kult-kaptialism-dont-buy-it-1ec41b2c97fd https://doctorow.medium.com/https-pluralistic-net-2024-04-22...

mathgradthrow 2y ago

perhaps, you might even argue, this is an area where government regulation may be able to do some good.