5 ms·

New earplugs won't amplify the sound of your own voice

48 points by sohkamyung 2y ago

imzadi 2y ago
I need earplugs that won't amplify my tinnitus. Or, better yet, cancel it.
- loco5niner 2y ago
  I feel like that is what these will do for me, if they work as promised. When I sing in choir(etc), I can't wear regular earplugs, because my own voice triggers my tinnitus.
  - amelius 2y ago
    Why would you want to wear earplugs while singing?
    - dmoy 2y ago
      If you're regularly doing ensemble stuff, you can get hearing damage from the consistent loud volume. Thus, earplugs. It's maybe less significant for choir compared to e.g. rock band with amps or wind band with tons of brass, but you can still get ear damage. (That's where I got my tinnitus from lol) They do make specialized earplugs for music that allow some amount of pass-through, and don't isolate as much.
    - Zyst 2y ago
      I play drums for fun. The vocalists usually wear earplugs too. Because they’ll get hearing damage if they don’t. Instruments can be loud. Look up “Earasers” if interested, they’re the ones I use. They work in a way that music sounds reasonable, but still protects your ears.
    - redwall_hp 2y ago
      Performing music is very loud and will result in hearing damage over time, which is not something you want if you like music. Professional musicians nowadays tend to wear IEMs (In Ear Monitors), which are earplugs that drastically cut sound level but have an earbud driver that pipes in audio from the mixing board at a safer volume. This also offers better clarity, the ability for individual band members to hear themselves play better, and the possibility of a click track. Despite the general public's lack of awareness of hearing safety, it's not really recommended that you even attend concerts without hearing protection (concert earbuds such as those from Etymotic Research) to attenuate the volume to safe levels, as venues are pushing 90-100db.
      - ssl-3 2y ago
        > as venues are pushing 90-100db I went to a rather big multi-day outdoor rock show last year, and spent some time hanging out behind the FOH tent watching people work at various times because that's fun for me. Hanging inside of the tent was a big, bright numeric LED display showing SPL, right by a big sternly-worded sign about the not-to-exceed level for the venue (which was, IIRC, 103dB). For the headliners, I was regularly seeing 120dB -- and sometimes, 125dB -- presumably as measured somewhere around that point in space. Choirs can get loud, too: I've read before that choir members can experience peaks of 110dB just from the sounds of their collective voices. (Before IEMs became common, I worked extensively with a 5-piece band that had one aspect of their stage layout that they were absolutely unwilling to change, no matter how big or small that stage was: Each member had a "good" ear and a "bad" ear, and they considered it absolutely necessary to never be positioned so that their good ear was facing the drummer.)
      - wkat4242 2y ago
        Yeah etymotics are great. I've been using them for years. They don't look as good as loops but they sound so much better.
    - loco5niner 2y ago
      I have sat too close to instruments like cymbals. Without earplugs it hurts my ears. I also have tinnitus, which may or may not be related. Protect those ears!
- hprotagonist 2y ago
  unfortunately masking peripheral stimuli won’t necessarily do much for reducing central percepts of non-peripheral stimuli. Tinnitus isn’t a sound, exactly…
  - tommiegannert 2y ago
    Has there been research on this? Even if the cause of tinnitus is neural, or damage to the inner ear, perhaps it could be altered with bone conduction speakers? On the premise that any change to status quo might cause the neurons to completely re-evaluate their duties... These two ([1] [2]; 2002 and 2020) say that bone-conducting and air-conducting transducers offer the same relief. Since everyone, including this [3] seems to bury the results, I'm guessing that sound therapy isn't very effective. [1] https://e-asr.org/upload/pdf/asr-200012.pdf https://e-asr.org/upload/pdf/asr-200012.pdf (interestingly, this is Korean with English headings and captions. Is that common?) [2] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/14992020209077189 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/1499202020907718... [3] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/2040622320956426 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/204062232095642...
  - imzadi 2y ago
    All I know is that there are some sounds that help my tinnitus and other sounds that trigger it. If I could have something that filters the triggering frequencies and also sends out the masking frequencies, maybe it would help? I don't know.
    - Talinx 2y ago
      There are earplugs that minimize certain frequencies, e. g. Flare Calmer [1]. They have a report with frequency response graphs [2]. No idea if this helps with tinnitus at all. [1] https://www.flareaudio.com/en-eu/collections/calmer https://www.flareaudio.com/en-eu/collections/calmer [2] https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1721/0649/files/ISVR_Offical_Report_on_Calmer.pdf https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1721/0649/files/ISVR_Offic...
  - rarely 2y ago
    While tinnitus ringing isn't a result of vibrations activating the hair cells in the cochlea, the hair cells are still the reason the ringing occurs. If I recall correctly, it is still possible to exhaust these ringing-inducing hair cells to gain temporary relief. I wonder if you could somehow mask in a constant ringing that would exhaust these specific hair cells at some frequency for extended relief?
- hooverd 2y ago
  Can you cram a tiny estim unit into a pair? Bimodal stuff seems to be the current research focus.
colloydi 2y ago
>New Earplugs Won’t Amplify the Sound of Your Own Voice I think part of it is that most of us speak more loudly to others when we can't hear them very well, e.g. when wearing headphones or on a mobile in a train
- joezydeco 2y ago
  No, it's just a chronic lack of sidetone in these devices. Sidetone is the small amount of feedback in the earpiece as you speak into the microphone. The telephone company figured this out 100 years ago and then, somehow, we totally dropped it when mobile phones came along. We've been shouting into microphones ever since.
  - the-dude 2y ago
    Isn't the 'somehow' this? With POTS, both parties were transmitting on the same line but on digital/mobile connections, there are 2 streams?
    - joezydeco 2y ago
      Yes, there are two streams. But the handset could provide sidetone directly to the earpiece if it wanted to.
  - wkat4242 2y ago
    They also used to feed some noise even when no sound was received. Softphones still do this today, it's called comfort noise :) if you have none most callers start wondering if the connection is still active.
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
Related loosely as far as assisted listening aids: AI headphones let you listen to a single person in crowd, by looking at them https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40508278 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40508278
deng 2y ago
This is actually what I enjoy most of my Sony ANC headphones and this is what makes them so much better for noise reduction compared to simple earmuffs: they also cancel your own sounds.
- ricardobeat 2y ago
  I have two Sonys and never noticed that. Do you hear a difference when comparing to Bose or Apple ANC? My impression is that all earbuds I’ve tried suffer from the occlusion effect equally.
  - deng 2y ago
    Sorry, I'm not talking earbuds but closed headphones. I have the WH-1000XM5, and I immediately notice that I hear my own voice/noise way more as soon as I turn them off.
    - boringg 2y ago
      Agreed - I have the same headset and same experience - amazing. They are by far the best headset I have ever owned. Some minor quibles as always.
      - deng 2y ago
        Another point that is rarely mentioned or tested in reviews: massively improved transparency mode compared to the older models. I can use these headphones for hours as headset in video conferences with enabled transparency and not feel isolated from my surroundings, it's almost like you're not wearing them. My main quibble is the touchpad, which is way too sensitive and I had to turn it off (probably a defect, I guess I'll send them in eventually).
        lunaticlabs 2y ago
        I also love my XM5s, but yeah, the touchpad is useless and far too sensitive. I kept accidentally touching it whenever I move my hair out of my face to tuck it behind my ears, or otherwise brush past it. I also turned mine off, and its stayed that way.
ricardobeat 2y ago
https://archive.is/d35ex https://archive.is/d35ex
arisAlexis 2y ago
Does anyone else get annoyed by their own breathing when wearing normal earplugs for sleep ?
- ddmf 2y ago
  I tried quite a few different devices and the loop quiet seem to work really well for me. Strange because their experience plus didn't, although I've not tried their v2.

48 points by sohkamyung 2y ago

imzadi 2y ago

I need earplugs that won't amplify my tinnitus. Or, better yet, cancel it.

loco5niner 2y ago
I feel like that is what these will do for me, if they work as promised. When I sing in choir(etc), I can't wear regular earplugs, because my own voice triggers my tinnitus.
- amelius 2y ago
  Why would you want to wear earplugs while singing?
  - dmoy 2y ago
    If you're regularly doing ensemble stuff, you can get hearing damage from the consistent loud volume. Thus, earplugs. It's maybe less significant for choir compared to e.g. rock band with amps or wind band with tons of brass, but you can still get ear damage. (That's where I got my tinnitus from lol) They do make specialized earplugs for music that allow some amount of pass-through, and don't isolate as much.
  - Zyst 2y ago
    I play drums for fun. The vocalists usually wear earplugs too. Because they’ll get hearing damage if they don’t. Instruments can be loud. Look up “Earasers” if interested, they’re the ones I use. They work in a way that music sounds reasonable, but still protects your ears.
  - redwall_hp 2y ago
    Performing music is very loud and will result in hearing damage over time, which is not something you want if you like music. Professional musicians nowadays tend to wear IEMs (In Ear Monitors), which are earplugs that drastically cut sound level but have an earbud driver that pipes in audio from the mixing board at a safer volume. This also offers better clarity, the ability for individual band members to hear themselves play better, and the possibility of a click track. Despite the general public's lack of awareness of hearing safety, it's not really recommended that you even attend concerts without hearing protection (concert earbuds such as those from Etymotic Research) to attenuate the volume to safe levels, as venues are pushing 90-100db.
    - ssl-3 2y ago
      > as venues are pushing 90-100db I went to a rather big multi-day outdoor rock show last year, and spent some time hanging out behind the FOH tent watching people work at various times because that's fun for me. Hanging inside of the tent was a big, bright numeric LED display showing SPL, right by a big sternly-worded sign about the not-to-exceed level for the venue (which was, IIRC, 103dB). For the headliners, I was regularly seeing 120dB -- and sometimes, 125dB -- presumably as measured somewhere around that point in space. Choirs can get loud, too: I've read before that choir members can experience peaks of 110dB just from the sounds of their collective voices. (Before IEMs became common, I worked extensively with a 5-piece band that had one aspect of their stage layout that they were absolutely unwilling to change, no matter how big or small that stage was: Each member had a "good" ear and a "bad" ear, and they considered it absolutely necessary to never be positioned so that their good ear was facing the drummer.)
    - wkat4242 2y ago
      Yeah etymotics are great. I've been using them for years. They don't look as good as loops but they sound so much better.
  - loco5niner 2y ago
    I have sat too close to instruments like cymbals. Without earplugs it hurts my ears. I also have tinnitus, which may or may not be related. Protect those ears!
hprotagonist 2y ago
unfortunately masking peripheral stimuli won’t necessarily do much for reducing central percepts of non-peripheral stimuli. Tinnitus isn’t a sound, exactly…
- tommiegannert 2y ago
  Has there been research on this? Even if the cause of tinnitus is neural, or damage to the inner ear, perhaps it could be altered with bone conduction speakers? On the premise that any change to status quo might cause the neurons to completely re-evaluate their duties... These two ([1] [2]; 2002 and 2020) say that bone-conducting and air-conducting transducers offer the same relief. Since everyone, including this [3] seems to bury the results, I'm guessing that sound therapy isn't very effective. [1] https://e-asr.org/upload/pdf/asr-200012.pdf https://e-asr.org/upload/pdf/asr-200012.pdf (interestingly, this is Korean with English headings and captions. Is that common?) [2] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/14992020209077189 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/1499202020907718... [3] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/2040622320956426 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/204062232095642...
- imzadi 2y ago
  All I know is that there are some sounds that help my tinnitus and other sounds that trigger it. If I could have something that filters the triggering frequencies and also sends out the masking frequencies, maybe it would help? I don't know.
  - Talinx 2y ago
    There are earplugs that minimize certain frequencies, e. g. Flare Calmer [1]. They have a report with frequency response graphs [2]. No idea if this helps with tinnitus at all. [1] https://www.flareaudio.com/en-eu/collections/calmer https://www.flareaudio.com/en-eu/collections/calmer [2] https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1721/0649/files/ISVR_Offical_Report_on_Calmer.pdf https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1721/0649/files/ISVR_Offic...
- rarely 2y ago
  While tinnitus ringing isn't a result of vibrations activating the hair cells in the cochlea, the hair cells are still the reason the ringing occurs. If I recall correctly, it is still possible to exhaust these ringing-inducing hair cells to gain temporary relief. I wonder if you could somehow mask in a constant ringing that would exhaust these specific hair cells at some frequency for extended relief?
hooverd 2y ago
Can you cram a tiny estim unit into a pair? Bimodal stuff seems to be the current research focus.

colloydi 2y ago

>New Earplugs Won’t Amplify the Sound of Your Own Voice I think part of it is that most of us speak more loudly to others when we can't hear them very well, e.g. when wearing headphones or on a mobile in a train

joezydeco 2y ago
No, it's just a chronic lack of sidetone in these devices. Sidetone is the small amount of feedback in the earpiece as you speak into the microphone. The telephone company figured this out 100 years ago and then, somehow, we totally dropped it when mobile phones came along. We've been shouting into microphones ever since.
- the-dude 2y ago
  Isn't the 'somehow' this? With POTS, both parties were transmitting on the same line but on digital/mobile connections, there are 2 streams?
  - joezydeco 2y ago
    Yes, there are two streams. But the handset could provide sidetone directly to the earpiece if it wanted to.
- wkat4242 2y ago
  They also used to feed some noise even when no sound was received. Softphones still do this today, it's called comfort noise :) if you have none most callers start wondering if the connection is still active.

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

Related loosely as far as assisted listening aids: AI headphones let you listen to a single person in crowd, by looking at them https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40508278 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40508278

deng 2y ago

This is actually what I enjoy most of my Sony ANC headphones and this is what makes them so much better for noise reduction compared to simple earmuffs: they also cancel your own sounds.

ricardobeat 2y ago
I have two Sonys and never noticed that. Do you hear a difference when comparing to Bose or Apple ANC? My impression is that all earbuds I’ve tried suffer from the occlusion effect equally.
- deng 2y ago
  Sorry, I'm not talking earbuds but closed headphones. I have the WH-1000XM5, and I immediately notice that I hear my own voice/noise way more as soon as I turn them off.
  - boringg 2y ago
    Agreed - I have the same headset and same experience - amazing. They are by far the best headset I have ever owned. Some minor quibles as always.
    - deng 2y ago
      Another point that is rarely mentioned or tested in reviews: massively improved transparency mode compared to the older models. I can use these headphones for hours as headset in video conferences with enabled transparency and not feel isolated from my surroundings, it's almost like you're not wearing them. My main quibble is the touchpad, which is way too sensitive and I had to turn it off (probably a defect, I guess I'll send them in eventually).
      - lunaticlabs 2y ago
        I also love my XM5s, but yeah, the touchpad is useless and far too sensitive. I kept accidentally touching it whenever I move my hair out of my face to tuck it behind my ears, or otherwise brush past it. I also turned mine off, and its stayed that way.

ricardobeat 2y ago

https://archive.is/d35ex https://archive.is/d35ex

arisAlexis 2y ago

Does anyone else get annoyed by their own breathing when wearing normal earplugs for sleep ?

ddmf 2y ago
I tried quite a few different devices and the loop quiet seem to work really well for me. Strange because their experience plus didn't, although I've not tried their v2.