6 ms·

The discussion here follows well understood battle lines, but I want to add my grain of salt: working from the office comes bundled with commute. And the crux o

The discussion here follows well understood battle lines, but I want to add my grain of salt: working from the office comes bundled with commute. And the crux of arguments tends to be where you fall on the [commute is hell <-> working from home is hard due to circumstances] continuum. Some say that "commute helps clear the mind / switch context", but a simple walk does the same IMO; the mandatory presence in a vehicle along with everybody else at the same time, unpaid and very often for hours everyday feels incredibly invasive, wasteful and unjust. Every person then can talk price based on their circumstances, but that's the nub of it for me.

mondrian 2y ago
The flip side of spending "unpaid time" in commute is having "unpaid space" at home in terms of home office.
- benterix 2y ago
  I actually rented separate space for that. So I pay for 50 m2 of private office space where I have two rooms, kitchen, bathroom, a desk with a comfortable chair, a bed, some simple gym equipment and other amenities. And in spite of paying for this every month, I would never ever come to the office where I could use some of these things (an old office chair) for free. It feels like some dark era has ended, at least for a certain type of employees.
  - carschno 2y ago
    Interesting. Who pays for that? Sounds like, economically speaking, you are taking over the costs from your employer for providing a usable workspace.
    - shoubidouwah 2y ago
      in other words, "office space provides him with negative utility"
    - benterix 2y ago
      Yes, I pay for that - and I do it gladly. It's roughly 7% of my salary.
    - rlpb 2y ago
      The same argument could be made about the cost of a commute, though.
    - mrweasel 2y ago
      I had a co-worker who rented a small office, close to his home. Because he lives far away from any larger towns he was able to rent an office for $200 per month, but he shares the space with his partner who also works from "home", so it's effectively $100 per person. Our employer paid for the office space, but not for the cleaning, because it was still cheaper than paying for him being at the office every day (we where short on space). Depending on where you live, and your living situation renting a small office can be really cheap. In my local area I've seen private office rent for as little as $120 per month, but around $200 is more realistic.
    - marcosdumay 2y ago
      Yes. Every type of employment puts undocumented costs at the employees. But not all types of employment puts the same amount of costs. Those vary widely. And the possibility for the employee to optimize them also varies. And all the comments up to now are still ignoring the elephant on the room and didn't touch the opportunity cost of having your entire family work on the same geographic area, and the insane housing costs on the few small areas where a family can do that.
  - eleveriven 2y ago
    > It feels like some dark era has ended, at least for a certain type of employees. My friend was acually depressed by the fact that he had to work from home. At the first opportunity, he ran to the office.
    - benterix 2y ago
      I'm very happy for him, really! Also, I enjoy it when I pop into the office one a few weeks, it's an enjoyable experience - and part of this joy comes from the fact that I know I'm not forced to come there every way but it's my own choice.
- cafard 2y ago
  I spent most of the pandemic working from my dining room table. Now when I work from home it is from table in the basement. Neither is particularly in anybody's way.
  - joncrocks 2y ago
    So that's your personal experience, but you can imagine that this might be different for different people. The point is that previously you had a choice over the amount of space you need at home, there are requirements for WFH. i.e. You need a place where you can work effectively.
- doktrin 2y ago
  This is going to vary based on geography and circumstance, but some home office expenses are eligible for tax deductions.
carschno 2y ago
> "commute helps clear the mind / switch context", but a simple walk does the same Fully agree. In an ideal world, the commute would _be_ a walk to the office. More realistically: for those who happen to live in an environment that allows them to commute by foot or by bicycle, working in the office is already much more appealing than for others.
- darkwater 2y ago
  As an European: yes and no, because that (mostly) means living in the heart of a big city and not everyone wants to do that (less living space, higher noise and air pollution)
  - asdaq1312512 2y ago
    The good thing is that cities actively work on reducing noise and air pollution.
    - kibwen 2y ago
      And the irony is that, in developed nations, almost all of the air pollution in a city comes from cars.
      - TheCoelacanth 2y ago
        Noise pollution too.
- snapcaster 2y ago
  I moved so I could walk to work and it has made such a huge difference on my quality of life, crazy how much different a 15 minute walk is compared to even a short drive. Not sure exactly why, but for me it's a world of difference
  - azemetre 2y ago
    I’ve done a similar thing with the added benefit of also living in a walkable neighborhood (can walk to my doctors, theater, cafes, bars, gym, grocery store). I really wish these neighborhoods weren’t so expensive because they are very desirable.
benterix 2y ago
That's one of the more popular arguments but not the only one. When WFH, i have enormous freedom of arranging tasks they way I want them executed and it works marvels for my productivity. When I want to go out on my bike for 20 minutes, I do so, and excellent ideas come to my mind them. There is simply no amount of money that would force me back to the office. I routinely pass on job offers where they demand "just two days a week in the office".
- bdw5204 2y ago
  I doubt you can even get a hybrid position in this market if you clearly prefer remote work but can't find a remote job. Companies generally aren't going to hire somebody who clearly doesn't want to be there so the only people who have a choice are those who are capable of lying. I suspect those "job offers" you're getting are probably just recruiters who'd waste your time if you told them you were interested then you'd never hear from them again. That's my experience with most of that "profession" anyway.
  - benterix 2y ago
    In my niche, the ratio of not remote (including hybrid) to remote is roughly 3:2. However, the interesting thing is that almost all top offers are remote only. Sometimes with the annotation "This is a remote position but you are welcome to the office should you wish to come".
  - CoastalCoder 2y ago
    FWIW, I don't recall ever being asked during interviews if I wanted to come to the office. The policy was simply stated as a fact of the position. So any lying would have been spurious.
    - bdw5204 2y ago
      The "lying" I referred to would be pretending that you're actually interested in a non-remote job for anything other than the money you need to survive until you can find a remote job. Even if you don't come right out and say you see them as a "take it and keep looking", that's still going to be obvious unless you're at sociopath levels of skill in lying. And if you're somebody who wouldn't still be in the industry if remote work hadn't become the norm, you're not going to be genuinely interested in any non-remote job for anything other than money until you can get something better.
lbeltrame 2y ago
> Some say that "commute helps clear the mind / switch context", but a simple walk does the same IMO No, it doesn't for everyone. Personal experience matters: after a 70-day lockdown including a very stressful work period (dedadlines etc), there's no way I'm going to WFH ever again. But that's just me, of course. For others, priorities may be different.
- wasteduniverse 2y ago
  [dead]
- gabrielgio 2y ago
  I fail to understand how this is related to WFH? That happened while you were working from home, not because you were working from home.
  - OJFord 2y ago
    I read it as that being the point - they have a bad association for it so it's just not appealing now. Likewise you might have a terrible time in one office that puts you off working in any office.
  - lbeltrame 2y ago
    Because it wasn't just the lockdown: it was a pretty complex affair at the job too (including very tense moments; it would've been bad even in the office, mind you) and there was no way to shut that away from me. FTR, I did WFH in other times (2 years in the 2009-2011 period) and it wasn't like that.
    - intended 2y ago
      This would extrapolate to it being a shit situation in general. Attributing WFH as a causal factor is hard, given your description.
      - DoughnutHole 2y ago
bradleyjg 2y ago
the mandatory presence in a vehicle along with everybody else at the same time, unpaid and very often for hours everyday feels incredibly invasive, wasteful and unjust. At least in the U.S. almost all of us in this industry are on salary. In that case I don’t think it makes sense to think of a mandatory commute as unpaid. It’s part of the deal and should be factored in accordingly.
- throw383y8 2y ago
  [dead]
- bradleyjg 2y ago
  I can’t respond directly—-but at one time many of those things were deductible. Tax cheats are why we can’t have nice things.
- stevenAthompson 2y ago
  I personally factor it in as a large reduction in total compensation, because it's a huge mandatory cost. Non-remote jobs just aren't competitive unless they offer truly extraordinary pay.
  - bradleyjg 2y ago
    Then things will work themselves out without the need for endless jawboning.
- willcipriano 2y ago
  I haven't seen the in office jobs offer any premium over remote. So if it's part of the deal those are all worse deals.
- gedy 2y ago
  That's true, but I've then also subtracted commute times from office hours when I was required to come in. I can't do 8 hours in office plus 1.5 commute time on those days.
CalRobert 2y ago
This is from an Irish broadcaster and commutes there tend to be hellish, unfortunately.
phone8675309 2y ago
> [T]he mandatory presence in a vehicle along with everybody else at the same time, unpaid and very often for hours everyday feels incredibly invasive, wasteful and unjust. All of this changes when you consider your commute on the clock. I've been doing this since RTO 3-days a week and it really helps. I've already proven that I can work from home without issue, so heading into the office definitely isn't for my benefit - it's effort that I apply for the benefit of my employer, something they've even admitted by saying working from the office allows for "spontaneous collaboration and increased efficiency". As it's for their benefit (and also a detriment for me) then they can pay me for the time I spend doing it. If they don't like it then they can let me WFH.
- readyman 2y ago
  >If they don't like it then they can let me WFH. They can also fire you lol
  - ewgfdgdfgdf 2y ago
    Given this attitude, the answer to your other comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40511726 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40511726 "As a junior employee, I have no patience for your point. Going into office is one thing juniors can do about the "problem with the culture" so my stance stays the same until the so-called culture changes. In my experience, the number of seniors who complain sbout RTO and don't hoard knowledge is tiny." ... is that it is likely that nobody is hoarding knowledge, they're just avoiding you because you're unpleasant.
  - phone8675309 2y ago
    They can but haven't.
exodust 2y ago
Not to mention air pollution and energy consumption of commuting. Office mandates run awkwardly against eco-friendly principles. Another aspect is nasty viruses are still a big concern. Offices with more breathing room / less people per square metre, spread less illness.

mondrian 2y ago

The flip side of spending "unpaid time" in commute is having "unpaid space" at home in terms of home office.

benterix 2y ago
I actually rented separate space for that. So I pay for 50 m2 of private office space where I have two rooms, kitchen, bathroom, a desk with a comfortable chair, a bed, some simple gym equipment and other amenities. And in spite of paying for this every month, I would never ever come to the office where I could use some of these things (an old office chair) for free. It feels like some dark era has ended, at least for a certain type of employees.
- carschno 2y ago
  Interesting. Who pays for that? Sounds like, economically speaking, you are taking over the costs from your employer for providing a usable workspace.
  - shoubidouwah 2y ago
    in other words, "office space provides him with negative utility"
  - benterix 2y ago
    Yes, I pay for that - and I do it gladly. It's roughly 7% of my salary.
  - rlpb 2y ago
    The same argument could be made about the cost of a commute, though.
  - mrweasel 2y ago
    I had a co-worker who rented a small office, close to his home. Because he lives far away from any larger towns he was able to rent an office for $200 per month, but he shares the space with his partner who also works from "home", so it's effectively $100 per person. Our employer paid for the office space, but not for the cleaning, because it was still cheaper than paying for him being at the office every day (we where short on space). Depending on where you live, and your living situation renting a small office can be really cheap. In my local area I've seen private office rent for as little as $120 per month, but around $200 is more realistic.
  - marcosdumay 2y ago
    Yes. Every type of employment puts undocumented costs at the employees. But not all types of employment puts the same amount of costs. Those vary widely. And the possibility for the employee to optimize them also varies. And all the comments up to now are still ignoring the elephant on the room and didn't touch the opportunity cost of having your entire family work on the same geographic area, and the insane housing costs on the few small areas where a family can do that.
- eleveriven 2y ago
  > It feels like some dark era has ended, at least for a certain type of employees. My friend was acually depressed by the fact that he had to work from home. At the first opportunity, he ran to the office.
  - benterix 2y ago
    I'm very happy for him, really! Also, I enjoy it when I pop into the office one a few weeks, it's an enjoyable experience - and part of this joy comes from the fact that I know I'm not forced to come there every way but it's my own choice.
cafard 2y ago
I spent most of the pandemic working from my dining room table. Now when I work from home it is from table in the basement. Neither is particularly in anybody's way.
- joncrocks 2y ago
  So that's your personal experience, but you can imagine that this might be different for different people. The point is that previously you had a choice over the amount of space you need at home, there are requirements for WFH. i.e. You need a place where you can work effectively.
doktrin 2y ago
This is going to vary based on geography and circumstance, but some home office expenses are eligible for tax deductions.

carschno 2y ago

> "commute helps clear the mind / switch context", but a simple walk does the same Fully agree. In an ideal world, the commute would _be_ a walk to the office. More realistically: for those who happen to live in an environment that allows them to commute by foot or by bicycle, working in the office is already much more appealing than for others.

darkwater 2y ago
As an European: yes and no, because that (mostly) means living in the heart of a big city and not everyone wants to do that (less living space, higher noise and air pollution)
- asdaq1312512 2y ago
  The good thing is that cities actively work on reducing noise and air pollution.
  - kibwen 2y ago
    And the irony is that, in developed nations, almost all of the air pollution in a city comes from cars.
    - TheCoelacanth 2y ago
      Noise pollution too.
snapcaster 2y ago
I moved so I could walk to work and it has made such a huge difference on my quality of life, crazy how much different a 15 minute walk is compared to even a short drive. Not sure exactly why, but for me it's a world of difference
- azemetre 2y ago
  I’ve done a similar thing with the added benefit of also living in a walkable neighborhood (can walk to my doctors, theater, cafes, bars, gym, grocery store). I really wish these neighborhoods weren’t so expensive because they are very desirable.

benterix 2y ago

That's one of the more popular arguments but not the only one. When WFH, i have enormous freedom of arranging tasks they way I want them executed and it works marvels for my productivity. When I want to go out on my bike for 20 minutes, I do so, and excellent ideas come to my mind them. There is simply no amount of money that would force me back to the office. I routinely pass on job offers where they demand "just two days a week in the office".

bdw5204 2y ago
I doubt you can even get a hybrid position in this market if you clearly prefer remote work but can't find a remote job. Companies generally aren't going to hire somebody who clearly doesn't want to be there so the only people who have a choice are those who are capable of lying. I suspect those "job offers" you're getting are probably just recruiters who'd waste your time if you told them you were interested then you'd never hear from them again. That's my experience with most of that "profession" anyway.
- benterix 2y ago
  In my niche, the ratio of not remote (including hybrid) to remote is roughly 3:2. However, the interesting thing is that almost all top offers are remote only. Sometimes with the annotation "This is a remote position but you are welcome to the office should you wish to come".
- CoastalCoder 2y ago
  FWIW, I don't recall ever being asked during interviews if I wanted to come to the office. The policy was simply stated as a fact of the position. So any lying would have been spurious.
  - bdw5204 2y ago
    The "lying" I referred to would be pretending that you're actually interested in a non-remote job for anything other than the money you need to survive until you can find a remote job. Even if you don't come right out and say you see them as a "take it and keep looking", that's still going to be obvious unless you're at sociopath levels of skill in lying. And if you're somebody who wouldn't still be in the industry if remote work hadn't become the norm, you're not going to be genuinely interested in any non-remote job for anything other than money until you can get something better.

lbeltrame 2y ago

> Some say that "commute helps clear the mind / switch context", but a simple walk does the same IMO No, it doesn't for everyone. Personal experience matters: after a 70-day lockdown including a very stressful work period (dedadlines etc), there's no way I'm going to WFH ever again. But that's just me, of course. For others, priorities may be different.

wasteduniverse 2y ago
[dead]
gabrielgio 2y ago
I fail to understand how this is related to WFH? That happened while you were working from home, not because you were working from home.
- OJFord 2y ago
  I read it as that being the point - they have a bad association for it so it's just not appealing now. Likewise you might have a terrible time in one office that puts you off working in any office.
- lbeltrame 2y ago
  Because it wasn't just the lockdown: it was a pretty complex affair at the job too (including very tense moments; it would've been bad even in the office, mind you) and there was no way to shut that away from me. FTR, I did WFH in other times (2 years in the 2009-2011 period) and it wasn't like that.
  - intended 2y ago
    This would extrapolate to it being a shit situation in general. Attributing WFH as a causal factor is hard, given your description.
    - DoughnutHole 2y ago

bradleyjg 2y ago

the mandatory presence in a vehicle along with everybody else at the same time, unpaid and very often for hours everyday feels incredibly invasive, wasteful and unjust. At least in the U.S. almost all of us in this industry are on salary. In that case I don’t think it makes sense to think of a mandatory commute as unpaid. It’s part of the deal and should be factored in accordingly.

throw383y8 2y ago
[dead]
bradleyjg 2y ago
I can’t respond directly—-but at one time many of those things were deductible. Tax cheats are why we can’t have nice things.
stevenAthompson 2y ago
I personally factor it in as a large reduction in total compensation, because it's a huge mandatory cost. Non-remote jobs just aren't competitive unless they offer truly extraordinary pay.
- bradleyjg 2y ago
  Then things will work themselves out without the need for endless jawboning.
willcipriano 2y ago
I haven't seen the in office jobs offer any premium over remote. So if it's part of the deal those are all worse deals.
gedy 2y ago
That's true, but I've then also subtracted commute times from office hours when I was required to come in. I can't do 8 hours in office plus 1.5 commute time on those days.

CalRobert 2y ago

This is from an Irish broadcaster and commutes there tend to be hellish, unfortunately.

phone8675309 2y ago

> [T]he mandatory presence in a vehicle along with everybody else at the same time, unpaid and very often for hours everyday feels incredibly invasive, wasteful and unjust. All of this changes when you consider your commute on the clock. I've been doing this since RTO 3-days a week and it really helps. I've already proven that I can work from home without issue, so heading into the office definitely isn't for my benefit - it's effort that I apply for the benefit of my employer, something they've even admitted by saying working from the office allows for "spontaneous collaboration and increased efficiency". As it's for their benefit (and also a detriment for me) then they can pay me for the time I spend doing it. If they don't like it then they can let me WFH.

readyman 2y ago
>If they don't like it then they can let me WFH. They can also fire you lol
- ewgfdgdfgdf 2y ago
  Given this attitude, the answer to your other comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40511726 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40511726 "As a junior employee, I have no patience for your point. Going into office is one thing juniors can do about the "problem with the culture" so my stance stays the same until the so-called culture changes. In my experience, the number of seniors who complain sbout RTO and don't hoard knowledge is tiny." ... is that it is likely that nobody is hoarding knowledge, they're just avoiding you because you're unpleasant.
- phone8675309 2y ago
  They can but haven't.

exodust 2y ago

Not to mention air pollution and energy consumption of commuting. Office mandates run awkwardly against eco-friendly principles. Another aspect is nasty viruses are still a big concern. Offices with more breathing room / less people per square metre, spread less illness.