5 ms·

California launches pilot to charge drivers by miles, possibly replacing gas tax

13 points by keploy 2y ago

sharpshadow 2y ago
The first comment there on Reddit from Regayov nails it: „ I don’t think politicians have the same definition of the word “replace” that their constituents do. What they really mean is “in addition to”.“ The link to the article: https://www.autoblog.com/2024/05/26/california-launching-pilot-program-to-charge-drivers-for-miles-driven/ https://www.autoblog.com/2024/05/26/california-launching-pil...
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  From the article, it is touted as a gas tax replacement, not a gas tax supplement. They could also just charge tax on EVs by mileage rather than a flat fee per year, and then just leave the gas tax alone for ICEs. The big problem is how to tax PHEVs where the two taxes would meet.
  - sharpshadow 2y ago
    Didn't see it in the context of EVs and ICEs but it makes sense and then their idea would cover PHEVs as well. What I don't understand is how would they find out how many miles have been driven.
    - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
      Odometers are really easy to check these days, especially on an EV. It could easily just be a legal attestation, where you specify the mileage when you register the car and then the mileage at renewal. If you cheat, the gig is eventually up when you transfer title, or you could just have an in person check every two years. If this becomes common in the future, the odometer can be transmitted straight from the car since it’s hardly considered private data. PHEVs get double taxed since they can drive on electric or gas. They get taxed on gas as normal, but also taxed by miles driven. You would have to make some guesstimates about miles driven on electric, or the car could just record that info directly.
londons_explore 2y ago
I'd like to see them charging for all miles driven, not just those in-state. Do that by getting the owner to report the car odometer value every year and charging for however much it went up. Stop cheating by having existing numberplate recognition cameras keep a log of the distance you must have driven and investigating if you reported a lower number than they saw you do. Also have any police pullover reporting the number at the time of the stop.
- rangestransform 2y ago
  > omnipresent surveillance to track when and where I drive How about no
- bl4ckcontact 2y ago
  It’s difficult for me to imagine an actual, possible future more dystopian than this.
anon373839 2y ago
This sounds like a regressive tax, since lower income workers often have much longer commutes.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > sounds like a regressive tax, since lower income workers often have much longer commutes Ideally it's related to the wear and tear the vehicle places on the road. That's a function of distance. But also weight and axle count.
- mcv 2y ago
  And does it distinguish between heavy and light vehicles? Heavy vehicles cause much more wear and tear on the road. That's something I'd love to see taken into account.
  - dsq 2y ago
    Very good point.
  - bonton89 2y ago
    You can just tax tires. And collecting the tax has the added incentives of being much easier to administer and not privacy invading.
    - hindsightbias 2y ago
      I can just see those bare tires on the 101... And now people won't be stealing rims, they'll be stealing tires.
      - mcv 2y ago
        Yeah, I like the idea of taxing the tires at first, but then you start thinking about people postponing replacing their tires to avoid tax, and creating dangerous situations on the road. It reminds me a bit of garbage collection in Amsterdam; lots of cities try to let people pay for the amount of trash they produce, but Amsterdam will let people thrown away their trash for free, and be happy they throw it away properly, because taxing that is going to create a mess. Taxing gas is probably the easiest way to do it. Heavier cars probably use more gas than lighter ones, right? Except EVs don't use gas at all and still use the roads. There's just no easy solution.
dsq 2y ago
Sounds like someone who works from home and drives a heavy premium vehicle for short distances comes out on top here. Pays little for miles driven, and not penalized for the relatively higher wear and tear per mile.
ImJamal 2y ago
> In theory, drivers would be able to choose how the state tracks their mileage. They could hook up an electronic device to their car, use the car's built-in tracking system or send Caltrans a picture of the odometer. So they just want to track where everybody is going unless you opt out? How long until they mandate the tracking device in new vehicles?
- unstatusthequo 2y ago
  Most modern cars already track you. And sell to data brokers. A brave new world!
Tiktaalik 2y ago
We need to pivot to this. As hybrid and battery electric vehicles become more common we're essentially defunding a range of services that depend on gas tax revenue. Now we can come up with an alternative way of generating revenue, but what is clear is that the gas tax itself is no longer effective and sustainable.
- pixxel 2y ago
  >pivot >Now we can come up with an alternative way Spoken like a true SF commie.

13 points by keploy 2y ago

The first comment there on Reddit from Regayov nails it: „ I don’t think politicians have the same definition of the word “replace” that their constituents do. What they really mean is “in addition to”.“ The link to the article: https://www.autoblog.com/2024/05/26/california-launching-pilot-program-to-charge-drivers-for-miles-driven/ https://www.autoblog.com/2024/05/26/california-launching-pil...

seanmcdirmid 2y ago
From the article, it is touted as a gas tax replacement, not a gas tax supplement. They could also just charge tax on EVs by mileage rather than a flat fee per year, and then just leave the gas tax alone for ICEs. The big problem is how to tax PHEVs where the two taxes would meet.
- sharpshadow 2y ago
  Didn't see it in the context of EVs and ICEs but it makes sense and then their idea would cover PHEVs as well. What I don't understand is how would they find out how many miles have been driven.
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    Odometers are really easy to check these days, especially on an EV. It could easily just be a legal attestation, where you specify the mileage when you register the car and then the mileage at renewal. If you cheat, the gig is eventually up when you transfer title, or you could just have an in person check every two years. If this becomes common in the future, the odometer can be transmitted straight from the car since it’s hardly considered private data. PHEVs get double taxed since they can drive on electric or gas. They get taxed on gas as normal, but also taxed by miles driven. You would have to make some guesstimates about miles driven on electric, or the car could just record that info directly.

londons_explore 2y ago

I'd like to see them charging for all miles driven, not just those in-state. Do that by getting the owner to report the car odometer value every year and charging for however much it went up. Stop cheating by having existing numberplate recognition cameras keep a log of the distance you must have driven and investigating if you reported a lower number than they saw you do. Also have any police pullover reporting the number at the time of the stop.

rangestransform 2y ago
> omnipresent surveillance to track when and where I drive How about no
bl4ckcontact 2y ago
It’s difficult for me to imagine an actual, possible future more dystopian than this.

anon373839 2y ago

This sounds like a regressive tax, since lower income workers often have much longer commutes.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> sounds like a regressive tax, since lower income workers often have much longer commutes Ideally it's related to the wear and tear the vehicle places on the road. That's a function of distance. But also weight and axle count.
mcv 2y ago
And does it distinguish between heavy and light vehicles? Heavy vehicles cause much more wear and tear on the road. That's something I'd love to see taken into account.
- dsq 2y ago
  Very good point.
- bonton89 2y ago
  You can just tax tires. And collecting the tax has the added incentives of being much easier to administer and not privacy invading.
  - hindsightbias 2y ago
    I can just see those bare tires on the 101... And now people won't be stealing rims, they'll be stealing tires.
    - mcv 2y ago
      Yeah, I like the idea of taxing the tires at first, but then you start thinking about people postponing replacing their tires to avoid tax, and creating dangerous situations on the road. It reminds me a bit of garbage collection in Amsterdam; lots of cities try to let people pay for the amount of trash they produce, but Amsterdam will let people thrown away their trash for free, and be happy they throw it away properly, because taxing that is going to create a mess. Taxing gas is probably the easiest way to do it. Heavier cars probably use more gas than lighter ones, right? Except EVs don't use gas at all and still use the roads. There's just no easy solution.

dsq 2y ago

Sounds like someone who works from home and drives a heavy premium vehicle for short distances comes out on top here. Pays little for miles driven, and not penalized for the relatively higher wear and tear per mile.

ImJamal 2y ago

> In theory, drivers would be able to choose how the state tracks their mileage. They could hook up an electronic device to their car, use the car's built-in tracking system or send Caltrans a picture of the odometer. So they just want to track where everybody is going unless you opt out? How long until they mandate the tracking device in new vehicles?

unstatusthequo 2y ago
Most modern cars already track you. And sell to data brokers. A brave new world!

Tiktaalik 2y ago

We need to pivot to this. As hybrid and battery electric vehicles become more common we're essentially defunding a range of services that depend on gas tax revenue. Now we can come up with an alternative way of generating revenue, but what is clear is that the gas tax itself is no longer effective and sustainable.

pixxel 2y ago
>pivot >Now we can come up with an alternative way Spoken like a true SF commie.