7 ms·

My $2.2k laptop can't drive two screens

82 points by cunidev 2y ago

gberger 2y ago
Vote with your wallet
Ajay-p 2y ago
could not use the HDMI and USB-C port at the same time the “base” M3 chip is essentially an overclocked iPad chip put into a computer, and it does not have two display controllers.
euazOn 2y ago
The workaround that works very well for me: use DisplayLink. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38149233 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38149233
- estebarb 2y ago
  This works perfect. Until you want to see Netflix or other DRM protected stuff.
  - mynegation 2y ago
    So… perfect workaround for a work computer?
    - eganist 2y ago
      Depends on the work. The suggested solution may very well fall on its face with any media & entertainment work, which incidentally is one of the industries with the heaviest Mac usage.
      - dzhiurgis 2y ago
        Who can also buy more expensive model
    - tmdyn 2y ago
      Amusingly you can’t play some of our required LMS training through Displaylink
hyperhello 2y ago
Apple gives you two weeks to return hardware with no questions asked.
arresin 2y ago
I don’t think it’s that Apple is so good but that the competition is so garbage that it makes anything halfway decent seem amazing.
- tonynator 2y ago
  The competition can run multiple displays. The competition has built in window tiling shortcuts. The competition has built in clipboard history. The competition doesn't open up your music player every time you connect your earbuds. The competition doesn't require carrying around HDMI and ethernet adapters everywhere you go. Apple is garbage, Macbooks are garbage, Windows + WSL beats them for every development task and in general productivity.
  - thatswrong0 2y ago
    Yeah, that's going to come down to personal preference. I find using a Mac to be a much more productive / enjoyable experience, especially for creative work. There are apps to address all of those software issues (having to install noTunes is kind of annoying for sure). And I will say, I prefer my OS to _not_ jam ads and tracking down my throat. But to each their own.
    - ASalazarMX 2y ago
      > especially for creative work There you go. That has always been their strong point, everything else is secondary, including their own development tools. MacOS Developers have to hoop through multiple hoops periodically, and some will tell you they're very intuitive hoops but you're using them wrong(TM).
  - bathtub365 2y ago
    Does any of the competition have a trackpad that compares to those on MacBooks?
    - Brian_K_White 2y ago
      I hate apple's huge trackpads and lack of buttons. Any competition that isn't trying to clone Apple is doing it better by not having Apple's trackpad.
therealmarv 2y ago
Meanwhile my Intel i5 Macbook Pro 13" from Early 2020 which was around 1.8K when bought new in 2020 CAN DO IT! So it has been better in the past! Apple downsized in regards to multi-monitor support so that you were forced to buy an M1...M3 Pro CPU which costs substantially more for only being able to drive more than one monitor. A shame that they did not fix the clamshell mode on the basic M3 Macbook Pro yet. Hopefully Apple wakes up with Qualcomm X Elite chips soon flooding the Windows laptop market (and they can all drive at least 3 external monitors).
rc5150 2y ago
A) the device in question was provisioned by his employer, so it's not his laptop, ergo, the price is irrelevant. If he's not able to complete his work tasks on the device, then it's on him to communicate with his manager to procure a device that allows him to do so. B) if the device was purchased by him, then the onus is on him to have researched the device's full functionality prior to the spending any amount in any currency. C) "What Apple is doing is trying to squeeze even more profit out of all users who didn’t read the fine print." Sounds a bit to me like the author of this blog is feeling a little guilty and self conscious about being apart of this subset of 'non-fine-print-readers'.
- eganist 2y ago
  How does any of this detract from the absurdity that no MacBook Pro with the mainline M1/M2/M3 chips has been able to natively drive two external screens? Being able to use two external screens is practically an expectation of any laptop at this point. I can understand the OP's point that this is ridiculous.
  - spacedcowboy 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - lynndotpy 2y ago
      > That's not absurd in the slightest. I think it is very absurd. It's difficult to imagine a definition of 'absurd' that wouldn't include this. The only other consumer desktop hardware I know of that can't drive two screens is the Raspberry Pi Zero. I agree with the OP on all points. The lineup is absurd (the Macbook Pro does not come with an M3 Pro). The motto "It just works" is absurd. The five-step workaround is absurd, and it's made worse given the workaround does not work.
  - ffsm8 2y ago
    You're just able to buy a MacBook Pro with a non-pro CPU. This capability is definitely primarily for market segmentation (the power drain isn't a realistic argument in this scenario, as the user will almost always have power available when plugged into a display)
bofaGuy 2y ago
I have the same laptop. I am able to run two monitors plus my internal screen without display link. The trick is to use ALT mode on one. This is dependent on at least one of the monitors supporting ALT mode.
zdw 2y ago
Buy laptop stand. Put laptop screen next to external screen. Look, two screens! Also you aren't frying the hardware by running it in clamshell mode (was a worse problem with earlier, warmer running hardware)
atemerev 2y ago
Well, if there is another laptop that runs something suitable for development (Fedora is fine), has 10-12 hours of battery time, lightweight, and with a hi-DPI display... oh, there are none. Sorry. No manufacturer in the world ever could make it, for some reason.
FredPret 2y ago
Is Gnome on Fedora as polished as he says, or is that just frustration talking?
- spacedcowboy 2y ago
  There's several things I don't like about the Mac (Settings is now an umitigated disaster, for example), but it's IMHO the best of the bunch, with Windows some way behind, and Linux (anything running Linux) some significant way behind that. Every now and then I'll fire up a VM and install Linux. Try some stuff, and think "nope, still not the year of the desktop on Linux".
  - ThatMedicIsASpy 2y ago
    My main system is Proxmox and a Linux VM + GPU. Every couple of weeks I try out different distros. No problems here. Right now I'm on Bazzite (KDE 6) and evaluating if I replace SteamOS with Bazzite on the Steam Deck.
  - FredPret 2y ago
    This is my impression as well. MacOS being far from ideal for a power user but sadly the best of a bad bunch. My current solution is to use the Mac as a thin client as much as possible.
- lynndotpy 2y ago
  I've been using MacOS for ~2 years, and GNOME in various forms for ~10 years. I'm even typing this comment from a Mac. For me, the biggest thing is that MacOS has lengthy sigmoidal animations, and no ability to move windows between desktops ("spaces") with a keyboard shortcut. Those animations are a source of constant friction, and the limited multi-desktop functionality makes single and dual monitor setups very frustrating. GNOME has neither of these problems, so for these two issues alone, I think it far outshines MacOS's desktop environment. I'm sure familiarity has a lot to do with it, and I'd argue KDE and Pop! OS's custom GNOME are more polished than base GNOME, but I wouldn't attribute OP's statement to frustration.
spacedcowboy 2y ago
[flagged]
- eganist 2y ago
  > Bottom line: it wasn't hidden from you[1]. You made an assumption without reading up on your "$2.2k laptop" and it didn't work out for you. Fortunately Apple have a relatively generous returns policy, take it back and get on with your life. Speaking of assumptions, looks like you made an assumption the OP bought this laptop themselves.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - spacedcowboy 2y ago
    Yep. I missed that. In which case he needs to just go to his boss and say "this thing you got me doesn't work for me". End of story. Been there, done that a few times. Never really felt the need to publish the fact on the internet. Generally though, at least with my employer, my boss asks me to "spec out what you want and we'll work with the budget". So it'd still be on me...
kmeisthax 2y ago
The reason why non-Pro-chip MacBooks can't drive three displays is very simple: Apple gives each display its own SRAM buffer to scan out from, separate from the main system RAM. The display controllers on Apple chips are literally larger than the CPU cores because of this. The reason why they do this is because it lets them run system RAM at lower power or suspend it entirely without affecting the displays. Which saves a good chunk of power - AFAIK after Asahi added support for the display coprocessor firmware (which implements this trick) they got a few extra hours of battery life. My main complaint is that you can't turn off the primary laptop display to get an extra external display back. That's probably why most people need >2 display controllers in their laptops. Though AFAIK this may have been fixed in the M3?
- politelemon 2y ago
  That isn't simple at all!
93po 2y ago
i hate windows and refuse to use it, but this is also the most annoying thing apple does outside not allowing real third party browser support in ios. it's 2024 and the robots are having human conversations with us and rockets are landing themselves. i think apple could make this work just fine if they wanted to
bastard_op 2y ago
I recently came across this fact of Apple's display limits after Vision Pro came out. I thought that it would be great for virtual desktop/productivity use, but sadly limited only to a Mac I don't have. I found that the amount of monitors able to be shown was limited to those supported by a mac, to support 2 displays, you needed a Pro, and for 3 a Max. Wait, what? As someone that has been using 3-6 displays for the past 20 years, I really don't get how or why this is hard for Apple to figure out. They're the only ones that haven't. While Apple can't figure out how to show more than physical supported displays virtually, 3rd party Vision apps such as Immersed have, making proper apps that can render I think up to 5 displays. Over wifi or even usb-c, it'll never be as good as DisplayPort or other hard-line connection, so compromise is necessary regardless. It is "good enough" for these others like Immersed, and far better than anything Apple is giving. The only company I hate more than Apple is Meta, but I'll probably buy a $500 Meta Quest 3 + my already suitable PC before I ever do Vision Pro + Mac for some $10k, and get far more functionality (and available apps).
JohnTHaller 2y ago
A user can't be blamed too much for assuming a $2k+ laptop with Pro in the name supports multiple external displays. A 2013 MacBook Pro can drive two external displays. But the base M1 and M2 MacBook Pros can not. The base M3 apparently can with specific hookups and a specific connection procedure requiring you to close the MacBook's lid but can't use standard docks with DisplayPort MST like other laptops can. And I say this as someone who bought and uses a used M1 MacBook Air and knew about the display limitation when I purchased it (and almost went with a used Mac Mini instead due to that limitation).
alanfranz 2y ago
Honestly: * It’s not two, but three displays (title is wrong in the original post) * differences between chips are clearly explained in comparison page https://www.apple.com/it/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/14-m3 https://www.apple.com/it/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/14-m3
kaycey2022 2y ago
Is this expected? I’m able to drive a 2nd 4K screen no problem on my MacBook Air m2. It’s at the cost of some battery life though. Also my machine is fully specced out - 24g memory, 1tb hard disk.

82 points by cunidev 2y ago

Vote with your wallet

could not use the HDMI and USB-C port at the same time the “base” M3 chip is essentially an overclocked iPad chip put into a computer, and it does not have two display controllers.

euazOn 2y ago

The workaround that works very well for me: use DisplayLink. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38149233 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38149233

estebarb 2y ago
This works perfect. Until you want to see Netflix or other DRM protected stuff.
- mynegation 2y ago
  So… perfect workaround for a work computer?
  - eganist 2y ago
    Depends on the work. The suggested solution may very well fall on its face with any media & entertainment work, which incidentally is one of the industries with the heaviest Mac usage.
    - dzhiurgis 2y ago
      Who can also buy more expensive model
  - tmdyn 2y ago
    Amusingly you can’t play some of our required LMS training through Displaylink

hyperhello 2y ago

Apple gives you two weeks to return hardware with no questions asked.

arresin 2y ago

I don’t think it’s that Apple is so good but that the competition is so garbage that it makes anything halfway decent seem amazing.

tonynator 2y ago
The competition can run multiple displays. The competition has built in window tiling shortcuts. The competition has built in clipboard history. The competition doesn't open up your music player every time you connect your earbuds. The competition doesn't require carrying around HDMI and ethernet adapters everywhere you go. Apple is garbage, Macbooks are garbage, Windows + WSL beats them for every development task and in general productivity.
- thatswrong0 2y ago
  Yeah, that's going to come down to personal preference. I find using a Mac to be a much more productive / enjoyable experience, especially for creative work. There are apps to address all of those software issues (having to install noTunes is kind of annoying for sure). And I will say, I prefer my OS to _not_ jam ads and tracking down my throat. But to each their own.
  - ASalazarMX 2y ago
    > especially for creative work There you go. That has always been their strong point, everything else is secondary, including their own development tools. MacOS Developers have to hoop through multiple hoops periodically, and some will tell you they're very intuitive hoops but you're using them wrong(TM).
- bathtub365 2y ago
  Does any of the competition have a trackpad that compares to those on MacBooks?
  - Brian_K_White 2y ago
    I hate apple's huge trackpads and lack of buttons. Any competition that isn't trying to clone Apple is doing it better by not having Apple's trackpad.

therealmarv 2y ago

Meanwhile my Intel i5 Macbook Pro 13" from Early 2020 which was around 1.8K when bought new in 2020 CAN DO IT! So it has been better in the past! Apple downsized in regards to multi-monitor support so that you were forced to buy an M1...M3 Pro CPU which costs substantially more for only being able to drive more than one monitor. A shame that they did not fix the clamshell mode on the basic M3 Macbook Pro yet. Hopefully Apple wakes up with Qualcomm X Elite chips soon flooding the Windows laptop market (and they can all drive at least 3 external monitors).

rc5150 2y ago

A) the device in question was provisioned by his employer, so it's not his laptop, ergo, the price is irrelevant. If he's not able to complete his work tasks on the device, then it's on him to communicate with his manager to procure a device that allows him to do so. B) if the device was purchased by him, then the onus is on him to have researched the device's full functionality prior to the spending any amount in any currency. C) "What Apple is doing is trying to squeeze even more profit out of all users who didn’t read the fine print." Sounds a bit to me like the author of this blog is feeling a little guilty and self conscious about being apart of this subset of 'non-fine-print-readers'.

eganist 2y ago
How does any of this detract from the absurdity that no MacBook Pro with the mainline M1/M2/M3 chips has been able to natively drive two external screens? Being able to use two external screens is practically an expectation of any laptop at this point. I can understand the OP's point that this is ridiculous.
- spacedcowboy 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - lynndotpy 2y ago
    > That's not absurd in the slightest. I think it is very absurd. It's difficult to imagine a definition of 'absurd' that wouldn't include this. The only other consumer desktop hardware I know of that can't drive two screens is the Raspberry Pi Zero. I agree with the OP on all points. The lineup is absurd (the Macbook Pro does not come with an M3 Pro). The motto "It just works" is absurd. The five-step workaround is absurd, and it's made worse given the workaround does not work.
- ffsm8 2y ago
  You're just able to buy a MacBook Pro with a non-pro CPU. This capability is definitely primarily for market segmentation (the power drain isn't a realistic argument in this scenario, as the user will almost always have power available when plugged into a display)

bofaGuy 2y ago

I have the same laptop. I am able to run two monitors plus my internal screen without display link. The trick is to use ALT mode on one. This is dependent on at least one of the monitors supporting ALT mode.

zdw 2y ago

Buy laptop stand. Put laptop screen next to external screen. Look, two screens! Also you aren't frying the hardware by running it in clamshell mode (was a worse problem with earlier, warmer running hardware)

atemerev 2y ago

Well, if there is another laptop that runs something suitable for development (Fedora is fine), has 10-12 hours of battery time, lightweight, and with a hi-DPI display... oh, there are none. Sorry. No manufacturer in the world ever could make it, for some reason.

FredPret 2y ago

Is Gnome on Fedora as polished as he says, or is that just frustration talking?

spacedcowboy 2y ago
There's several things I don't like about the Mac (Settings is now an umitigated disaster, for example), but it's IMHO the best of the bunch, with Windows some way behind, and Linux (anything running Linux) some significant way behind that. Every now and then I'll fire up a VM and install Linux. Try some stuff, and think "nope, still not the year of the desktop on Linux".
- ThatMedicIsASpy 2y ago
  My main system is Proxmox and a Linux VM + GPU. Every couple of weeks I try out different distros. No problems here. Right now I'm on Bazzite (KDE 6) and evaluating if I replace SteamOS with Bazzite on the Steam Deck.
- FredPret 2y ago
  This is my impression as well. MacOS being far from ideal for a power user but sadly the best of a bad bunch. My current solution is to use the Mac as a thin client as much as possible.
lynndotpy 2y ago
I've been using MacOS for ~2 years, and GNOME in various forms for ~10 years. I'm even typing this comment from a Mac. For me, the biggest thing is that MacOS has lengthy sigmoidal animations, and no ability to move windows between desktops ("spaces") with a keyboard shortcut. Those animations are a source of constant friction, and the limited multi-desktop functionality makes single and dual monitor setups very frustrating. GNOME has neither of these problems, so for these two issues alone, I think it far outshines MacOS's desktop environment. I'm sure familiarity has a lot to do with it, and I'd argue KDE and Pop! OS's custom GNOME are more polished than base GNOME, but I wouldn't attribute OP's statement to frustration.

spacedcowboy 2y ago

[flagged]

eganist 2y ago
> Bottom line: it wasn't hidden from you[1]. You made an assumption without reading up on your "$2.2k laptop" and it didn't work out for you. Fortunately Apple have a relatively generous returns policy, take it back and get on with your life. Speaking of assumptions, looks like you made an assumption the OP bought this laptop themselves.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- spacedcowboy 2y ago
  Yep. I missed that. In which case he needs to just go to his boss and say "this thing you got me doesn't work for me". End of story. Been there, done that a few times. Never really felt the need to publish the fact on the internet. Generally though, at least with my employer, my boss asks me to "spec out what you want and we'll work with the budget". So it'd still be on me...

kmeisthax 2y ago

The reason why non-Pro-chip MacBooks can't drive three displays is very simple: Apple gives each display its own SRAM buffer to scan out from, separate from the main system RAM. The display controllers on Apple chips are literally larger than the CPU cores because of this. The reason why they do this is because it lets them run system RAM at lower power or suspend it entirely without affecting the displays. Which saves a good chunk of power - AFAIK after Asahi added support for the display coprocessor firmware (which implements this trick) they got a few extra hours of battery life. My main complaint is that you can't turn off the primary laptop display to get an extra external display back. That's probably why most people need >2 display controllers in their laptops. Though AFAIK this may have been fixed in the M3?

politelemon 2y ago
That isn't simple at all!

93po 2y ago

i hate windows and refuse to use it, but this is also the most annoying thing apple does outside not allowing real third party browser support in ios. it's 2024 and the robots are having human conversations with us and rockets are landing themselves. i think apple could make this work just fine if they wanted to

bastard_op 2y ago

I recently came across this fact of Apple's display limits after Vision Pro came out. I thought that it would be great for virtual desktop/productivity use, but sadly limited only to a Mac I don't have. I found that the amount of monitors able to be shown was limited to those supported by a mac, to support 2 displays, you needed a Pro, and for 3 a Max. Wait, what? As someone that has been using 3-6 displays for the past 20 years, I really don't get how or why this is hard for Apple to figure out. They're the only ones that haven't. While Apple can't figure out how to show more than physical supported displays virtually, 3rd party Vision apps such as Immersed have, making proper apps that can render I think up to 5 displays. Over wifi or even usb-c, it'll never be as good as DisplayPort or other hard-line connection, so compromise is necessary regardless. It is "good enough" for these others like Immersed, and far better than anything Apple is giving. The only company I hate more than Apple is Meta, but I'll probably buy a $500 Meta Quest 3 + my already suitable PC before I ever do Vision Pro + Mac for some $10k, and get far more functionality (and available apps).

JohnTHaller 2y ago

A user can't be blamed too much for assuming a $2k+ laptop with Pro in the name supports multiple external displays. A 2013 MacBook Pro can drive two external displays. But the base M1 and M2 MacBook Pros can not. The base M3 apparently can with specific hookups and a specific connection procedure requiring you to close the MacBook's lid but can't use standard docks with DisplayPort MST like other laptops can. And I say this as someone who bought and uses a used M1 MacBook Air and knew about the display limitation when I purchased it (and almost went with a used Mac Mini instead due to that limitation).

alanfranz 2y ago

Honestly: * It’s not two, but three displays (title is wrong in the original post) * differences between chips are clearly explained in comparison page https://www.apple.com/it/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/14-m3 https://www.apple.com/it/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/14-m3

kaycey2022 2y ago

Is this expected? I’m able to drive a 2nd 4K screen no problem on my MacBook Air m2. It’s at the cost of some battery life though. Also my machine is fully specced out - 24g memory, 1tb hard disk.